The analysis is quite perfect... in my opinion.
That said you must consider that I'm for the duo Perrotta-Zanetti too... at least if the formation is a 4-2-3-1. I'm not a fan of Perrotta and Zanetti and I consider them just decent, far from excellence (but faaaar!), but unfortunately this is what we have.
Pirlo never convinced me when he played for Italy... even at Millenium in Cardiff when he had no particular defensive duties, since Tommasi, Ambrosini and Di Biagio were also in the starting lineup. Gattuso could play for both Zanetti and Perrotta without a gain, maybe a light loss since Zanetti and Perrotta seem to have a good partnership.

 

Excellent Thread Opening... You havent left much chance to disagree.

I m all for Perrotta-CZ

Only Disagreement on Ambrosini-Gattuso in the lineup.

 

They offer us stability AT THE BACK, eapecially in relative to Pirlo. They play as HOLDING MIDFIELDERS and the primary job of HOLDING MIDFIELDERS is the ability to HOLD. We already have THREE attacking midfielders and ONE attacker. Will it make you happy to see Cannavaro's backline abandoned when we have the ball? In an attacking formation such as the 4-2-3-1, before we can even talk about Totti spreading the play, we have to WIN the ball first. And in this area the duo's abilities climbs heads and shoulders above Pirlo. The reason why Milan never suffered with Pirlo's defensive weaknesses was because of Gattuso in the side, and the strength of their entire backline. If we put Gattuso in the side purely because we want to accomodate Pirlo, our ENTIRE backline has to be as tenacious and as fit as Milan's. I'm sure you don't have to let me tell you that the Azzurri have an obvious weakness at right-back.

With all due respect to Milan, their backline is not better than the Azzurri's. Since when Cafu is anything but mediocre defensively? 4-2-3-1 is not really that attacking formation and you make it sound as if Nesta and Cannavaro need a lot of help whichj is simply not true. How come other reams take risks and attack more with far worse defenders and win? Simple - their coaches have the guts to do it and Trap has not. Against strong opponents, I 'd like to see Italy having more possession of the ball not just waiting for the opponents attacks as in the friendly against Spain. And that's difficult to happen with the mentality of "give the ball to Totti, never bother to think of some other means of attack".

Yes, the team is build around Totti but what happens if he is not in form or very well marked? Someone else needs to step up and Pirlo is perfect for that role. To rely on only one player for bulidind up the attacks is very lame when you have such roster.

Anyway, the thing that matters is winning and I would be happy whether it's with CZ/Perotta or Pirlo/Gattuso or whoever but it's not that straightforward as you make it look.

 

This discussion reminds me of a similar one we had in Denmark in the early 90's: the press, the fans, everybody wanted the coach to play Laudrup and Mølby - two wonderful ball players - in center mid. At the end of the day none of them played - Laudrup withdrew from the NT and Mølby was never even considered - and our coach opted for hard-working, anonymous water carriers. Just as the pressure was about to get him fired his tactics started to pay off (EURO 92) - he's the most winning coach in our history, yet still the most unpopular.

I personally think it's gibberish to leave out the Milan duo but the results may prove me wrong.

 

I prefer the Milan duo. See the Tunisia match for reasons why.

 

A very good analysis Great Outdoors. But don't you think the whole point of the argument of putting Pirlo in the starting 11 is to give one more attacking option to the team and at the same time taking a bit of pressure off Totti?

Totti is a great player and I am sure he will be good come the euros but what if he is injured or being closely marked like it has happened before? Who do we rely upon? I don't like the fact that the whole team is built around a single or two players. Its too risky even though the two players may be Pele and Maradona themselves.

Morever, I don't think Pirlo is as poor defensively as he is made out to be. The guy has improved his defensive abilities by leaps and bounds this season and at the same time hasn't lost a speck of his offense. :star:

Be it what it may, I just hope Trap's squad clicks.

 

Great Outdoors, that was awful in my opinion. You cover a lot of aspects but nothing overshadows Pirlo's skill and the fact that Milan killed with Pirlo and Gattusso.

You say that we won with Perrotta and CZ and they enabled us to qualify. Just look at the results man, they were awful: little 1-0 wins when we can totally destroy an opponent 73-0. We had a really hard time qualifying for world cup 2002. At one point, I didn't thinlk we would make it in. But luckily, we did, by a couple of points when we could have been almost undefeated. Perrotta and CZ in my eyes have won us nothing.

Italy has the best team in europe but we are not using its full potential exactly because of those ****ing 2 DMC duos.

It has to be said also, Gattusso is a far better player than perrotta and CZ put together.

It is with CZ and perrotta that Totti will drop back and be neutralized.


Seriously man, great outdoors, you totally ridiculed yourself when you said CZ and perrotta have made us win and qualify for euro 2004.

 

You say that we won with Perrotta and CZ and they enabled us to qualify. Just look at the results man, they were awful: little 1-0 wins when we can totally destroy an opponent 73-0.

Every opinion is good until is founded on facts and not on fantasies.

Official matches:

Azerbaijan - Italia 0-2 (CZ and Perrotta both absent)
Italia - Serbia 1-1 (CZ and Perrota both absent)
Wales - Italia 2-1 (CZ and Perrotta both absent)

Italia - Finland 2-0 (CZ and Perrotta both on the pitch)
Finland - Italia 0-2 (CZ and Zambrotta both on the pitch)
Italy - Wales 4-0 (CZ and Perrotta both on the pitch)
Serbia - Italia 1-1 (just Perrotta on the pitch)
Italia - Azerbaijan 4-0 (CZ and Perrotta both on the pitch)

So with the Duo on the pitch we won 4 matches on 4 scoring 12 goals and conceding 0!
In the match vs Serbia Perrotta was with Tacchinardi but the true problem was when also Gattuso came in for Camoranesi after just 5 minutes in the 2nd half. In that way we had 3 defensive midfielders on the pitch and we were no more able to keep the ball possession, we conceded 1 goal and risked the defeat till the end.

I'm not saying that we won thanks to CZ and Perrotta and I'm the first to say that they are just decent, but they have just merits till now and hardly faults.

 

To Anomander Rake:

Yes, I also do think the "Totti or nothing" strategy is absurd (I had another post expressing my worry) but the crux of the matter is that, factually, Trap has built the team and the formation and the whole country's hopes on one man. I do not condone it and I worry about this but it does not change a thing. Trap WILL use 4-2-3-1 and Trap WILL not change this formation unless something happens during the game. In view of these facts that cannot be changed, in the 4-2-3-1, you simply NEED to have 2 strong holding midfielders at the "2". Our discussion is not whether Trap is being too defensive or attacking with this formation, but rather, with the 4-2-3-1 already cast in stone, which PAIR of players would be best suited to this formation. In this case I think it's the duo. If it was any other formation other than the 4-2-3-1, I would have argued vehemently for Pirlo's inclusion. It's all about the tactics. Pirlo will be perfect for some other formation. Perrotta and Zanetti is perfect for the 4-2-3-1. That's my argument.

Also, you said I made it sound as if Nesta and Cannavaro need a lot of help. Well, IN VIEW of the 4-2-3-1, they hell do. DO NOT FORGET that our left and right midfield flank players are sent out to ATTACK. If everyone is attacking, including our holding midfielders, then I can only say that we're set to concede a lot of goals.

To milano77:

Yes, the whole point of the argument of putting Pirlo in the starting 11 is to give one more attacking option to the team and at the same time taking a bit of pressure off Totti. Trap DOES WANT more attacking options to take the pressure off Totti. But HE DOESN'T want it to come from the holding midfield zone- not too much of it anyway. You see, if Pirlo became extremely successful in a more advanced area of the pitch, then it will be hard NOT to merit his selection. But here he is fighting for a place in the HOLDING MIDFIELD ZONE, an area in the 4-2-3-1 formation that primarily requires players to HOLD, NOT ATTACK. In short, as cliche as it might sound, he is an awesome player but he does not fit perfectly into the formation.

Yes, I think Pirlo's defensive qualities have improved tremendously this year. But I think Trap might be thinking more in terms of MENTALITY than ABILITY. Pirlo has the uncanny knack of getting forward.. I suspect Trap may be a little concerned about that.

To camelface:

You said that "nothing overshadows Pirlo's skill" and "the fact that Milan killed with Pirlo and Gattusso".

"Nothing overshadows Pirlo's skill"? So if we had 11 Baggios in Italy we would field them all? I thought we were discussing about tactics here. We're talking about players who would best fit into the 4-2-3-1, not which player has the best skill.

True, Milan were awesome with both Pirlo and Gattuso in the side. But with all due respect to your views I think Milan plays in a very different tone to our Azzurri. Milanisti will tell you that the Rossoneri style has been very distinct this season- within seconds of losing the ball, you would see like likes of Kaka and Shev helping out in their own area- a little total football, if you will. In International tournaments, Italy cannot afford to do that. We will be playing an average of 1 match every 3 or 4 days. Especially when you're talking about a tournament with a KNOCKOUT format, you can expect at least Vieri to be in the opponents' half for 89 minutes in a match. Pirlo have more than adequate cover to strut his stuff in Milan's colours. Also, Italy's defence may not be weaker than Milan's, but I suspect our right-side will be extremely exploited come the Euros, especially with Panucci in the side. I think people should be talking about Camoranesi's inclusion more than doubting about Zanetti-Perrotta, because Fiore is a million times more capable but nobody seems to be bothered with it..

And yes, we had a very hard time qualifying for WC2002 and the Euros with the duo in the side.. but you know what? We DID qualify. What has Pirlo given to the side thus far, to be honest? If you're a coach, would you go for the tried and tested, the duo which has won games for you in the past, or would you throw an internationally-untested 9-cap player who has only played a handful of times for the Azzurri in that area of the pitch to hold up your midfield?

I think when Italy is chasing games or when we need to be more attack-oriented, Pirlo will be the first person to come on (besides Cassano, of course ). But I have confidence in this starting eleven because it represents a neat balance in view of the 4-2-3-1 that we have decided to use in this European Championships.

Whatever the case is, I would LOVE to be proved wrong, as long as we bring the cup back home!

 

To camelface:

You said that "nothing overshadows Pirlo's skill" and "the fact that Milan killed with Pirlo and Gattusso".

"Nothing overshadows Pirlo's skill"? So if we had 11 Baggios in Italy we would field them all? I thought we were discussing about tactics here. We're talking about players who would best fit into the 4-2-3-1, not which player has the best skill.

It was never made evident that this was a discussion rescricted to Trap's 4-2-3-1. So, sorry if I was affected by your lack of clarity.

And yes, we had a very hard time qualifying for WC2002 and the Euros with the duo in the side.. but you know what? We DID qualify. What has Pirlo given to the side thus far, to be honest? If you're a coach, would you go for the tried and tested, the duo which has won games for you in the past, or would you throw an internationally-untested 9-cap player who has only played a handful of times for the Azzurri in that area of the pitch to hold up your midfield?

I think when Italy is chasing games or when we need to be more attack-oriented, Pirlo will be the first person to come on (besides Cassano, of course ). But I have confidence in this starting eleven because it represents a neat balance in view of the 4-2-3-1 that we have decided to use in this European Championships.

"tried and tested" duo? tested? meaning, passed the test?

In my opinion, the duo has failed the test, making them "tried and failing".

 

a few things to hashout before we even start this


cafu is a rightback in name only...he is a right winger...and an attacking one....he does not defend...he pressures a little but anyone who can put a crossover can breeze by him....

zambrotta is similar cept he can defend....and attack....

thus so far milan and azurri are level

maldini-nesta.....=....canna-nesta......quality is same there...remember canna for nt is a diff one from the inter man

oddo or panucci would play like pancaro....not good at attacking or defending...but stable...and thats all we need...and whose to say they wont suprise like pancaro

so the backline is even

fiore is a 2 way middie which ever way u look at it....he can attack and defend...in esssence he can do what seedorf does...ableit he is less explosive the seedorf.

pirlo is pirlo no matter where here is....same with genarro....

then we have cassano/adp and totti behind vieri...which is similar to kaka rui behind sheva which is ancelotti's preferred formation (its berlu that wants 2 attackers)


in reality its the same thing

except totti is a better creator and goal scorer then kaka, and cassano/adp will prolly be above what rui has been lately..which is inconsistant and patchy, ultimatley ineffective.

the whole thing about it unbalancing the defence is a joke

we have nesta and canna they are the best def partnership in intl football by a mile...no one comes close...england? :howler: spain :howler: :howler: france :howler: :howler: :howler: ...lets not even mention the dutch or germans or the portugese....we have the best central duo...and arguably the only goalie going into the tournament on form, from the big boys.

gatusso runs and he easily can retrive the balls that sp and cz do...and he doesnt have to make any fancy passes....a 5 yard pass to pirlo or a play back to def...u make it seem like he cannot pass....gatusso is a very capable passer, not great, but average. on top of that you all diss pirlo defensivly...then why did he do preety damn well for milan this year...he was not weak....he ahs beefeed up and gotten stronger and can make the tackles.

as for totti...he can only benefit...he has a guy who can give him balls to feet or on runs...plus he has a guy who can serve up assists for him and open up space and take pressure off.


this can only help us


whereas

cz-sp is limited...its like two gatusso's offensivly....average passers who cannot make a play to totti directly or if they do it will be sloppy....they are hardworking but again who wouldnt take a gatusso over those to to chase balls?...

all cz-sp will do is hold the ball to long, make bad balls and in general slow down the attack while providing un-needed defensive cover.


if we are to win this tournament it will not be by defeding our way to the cup...

 

Great Outdoors,that was an excellent post.

Its all about balance and thats why Trap picks a cetain team.He covers all aspects of the team whether its defending and attacking.He does not take risks,thats why few teams ever beat Italy by 3 goals or more.
Certain posters here seem to want to be more creative in attack forgetting that you leave yourself prone to suffering in a defensive aspect.Its easy to say if we concede 1,we will score 2,thats OK against weaker opposition but not the really good teams.They will know how to penetrate your weaknesses tactically.We must show all opposition that we are STRONG in every area of the field.

 

With all due respect to Milan, their backline is not better than the Azzurri's.

this i have to disagree with. maldini would have a spot if he decided to return, im sure we could all agree on that. canna has not been the player he used to be for a few years now. cafu is not great defensively but theres not all that much difference between him and oddo or panucci. that spot will be a weakness for us no matter which of those play. pancaro is better defensively than zambro. zambro adjusted well to the position and all respect to him for that, but hes not as good defensively as pancaro. milans backline is better than italys.

 

Thanks for all your comments.

Trap has been testing out alternative formations in training matches lately.. and Pirlo has been used extensively in the testing. I believe that serves my point exactly.. Pirlo is extremely hard to leave out of any side, the way he's playing at the moment, but in a 4-2-3-1.. that's a different story. To his credit I think Trap is thinking laterally and I am sure if neccessary, Italy will be able to switch formations effortlessly, and Pirlo will see a lot of playing time as a result.

Well.. with regards to Milan's defence vs the Azzurri's defence, I think there is very little to choose between the two. How do you choose between Pele and Maradona? (Ok, I know it's a bad example..) They're both one of the best defences assembled in Europe. But like I said, I think Milan plays in a more complete way.. so despite using the same formation as the Azzurri, their holding midfielders can get a way with a lot more. Trap probably realises this.. so his priority is obtaining a balance.

To put it very, very simply, Trap is faced with 2 options:

Option 1: Excellent tackler/average passer + Excellent passer/average tackler

Option 2: Average tackler/average passer + average tackler/average passer

Trap has gone for option 2, for the sake of BALANCE. If you think about it, his choice isn't entirely bad..

 

this i have to disagree with. maldini would have a spot if he decided to return, im sure we could all agree on that.

It would force Canna onto the right back, or Trap would have to play a 3 man defence.

canna has not been the player he used to be for a few years now.

Canna has been consistently better than Nesta with the NT. That says enough about his ability I think.

cafu is not great defensively but theres not all that much difference between him and oddo or panucci. that spot will be a weakness for us no matter which of those play.

Agreed.

pancaro is better defensively than zambro. zambro adjusted well to the position and all respect to him for that, but hes not as good defensively as pancaro.

Laughable, really . Zambro is on par defensively and on another galaxy going forward and as a footballer in general. The quality of a defence is not only measured on defensive ability, but as a total package, which is also why Cafu earns points on Italy's right backs. Panucci is better defensively but get's destroyed offensively; Oddo not too far off in attack and is just as dodgy in defence. In sum- Cafu is better than both.

milans backline is better than italys.

Very much equal.

 

And props to Great Outdoors for a couple of great posts :star: .

 

this i have to disagree with. maldini would have a spot if he decided to return, im sure we could all agree on that. canna has not been the player he used to be for a few years now. cafu is not great defensively but theres not all that much difference between him and oddo or panucci. that spot will be a weakness for us no matter which of those play. pancaro is better defensively than zambro. zambro adjusted well to the position and all respect to him for that, but hes not as good defensively as pancaro. milans backline is better than italys.

i think canna for the NT is a different player...and he has shown it in his international games...

zambro is as good defensivly as pancaro...and i think he is perhaps the top leftback in the world...

and i would say the NT backline is on par...if not a tad better as i rate zambro over pancaro (despite his phenomenal season)

 

To put it very, very simply, Trap is faced with 2 options:

Option 1: Excellent tackler/average passer + Excellent passer/average tackler

Option 2: Average tackler/average passer + average tackler/average passer

Trap has gone for option 2, for the sake of BALANCE. If you think about it, his choice isn't entirely bad..

the way i see this is
option one gives us 2 excellents and 2 average...
where as
option two gives us 4 average...and if pirlo is an average tackler and a excellent passer doesnt that mean he is as good as the other guy who is an average tackler but has passing to boot....reversed for gatusso.

i think you shot yourself in the foot with this one

 

the way i see this is
option one gives us 2 excellents and 2 average...
where as
option two gives us 4 average...and if pirlo is an average tackler and a excellent passer doesnt that mean he is as good as the other guy who is an average tackler but has passing to boot....reversed for gatusso.

i think you shot yourself in the foot with this one

Yes I actually meant that.. I was just weighing, in the simplest terms, what it probably meant for Trap when he was making his choice. In maths,

2 excellent and 2 average > 4 average

But in football there is no such thing of course.. coaches don't use weightage systems because the result is not the sum of its parts. Which means, I think Trap thinks

4 average > 2 excellent and 2 average

Simply because it is more balanced. He must think that 2 players who have average skills overall and play similiarly in nature is better than 2 players who have different strengths thus offering unbalance.

i think we are getting a little too technical here! If only everyone was

Excellent passer/excellent tackler

then we wouldn't have much of a problem!

 

Which means, I think Trap thinks

4 average > 2 excellent and 2 average

Simply because it is more balanced. He must think that 2 players who have average skills overall and play similiarly in nature is better than 2 players who have different strengths thus offering unbalance.

Yes, and by thinking that he is most likely wrong and it costs Italy bad.Modern football thrives on diversity, successful teams use players with different characteristics and strengths.I can't think of a single successful team or club in today's football who has composed their central midfield of two very similar players who are average in every aspect.By selecting Perotta-Zanetti over Pirlo-Gattuso Trap proves again that he is a relict among top managers.

 

I think that Pirlo should play more than Perrotta
Obviously I'm a bit biased, no question on that
Perrotta is a great player, and better in defense than Pirlo
But with Gattuso their to destroy and Pirlo to create, plus the understanding of the two, they see each other every day for 9 months almost, for 2 years now, they know each other way better than perrotta and cz
and Pirlo is more skilled than any player in the midfielder on the team but totti, haha, I think that if Trap wants to win he needs all the attacking options he can get, he can't field 5 attackers, but he can put Pirlo in there

 

Yes I actually meant that.. I was just weighing, in the simplest terms, what it probably meant for Trap when he was making his choice. In maths,

2 excellent and 2 average > 4 average

But in football there is no such thing of course.. coaches don't use weightage systems because the result is not the sum of its parts. Which means, I think Trap thinks

4 average > 2 excellent and 2 average

Simply because it is more balanced. He must think that 2 players who have average skills overall and play similiarly in nature is better than 2 players who have different strengths thus offering unbalance.

no because with 4 averages we are good at nothing

with an exc in each role we excel while not losing anything

there is no balance to it.....even u admitted that pirlo is as good as sp and cz in tackling and all....so no dissing on his def no more...he was amazing with milan...


this is ridiculus

 

I am quite tired of this debate already. I know I was the one who started it but :rollani:

Let's all just accept for now that Trap knows best and look forward to the tournament with CONFIDENCE! I am sure that in the event that Perrotta-Zanetti doesn't work out, Pirlo will be the first to get a look in. Look it doesn't matter who starts.. what matters is that we win!

 

Let's all just accept for now that Trap knows best and look forward to the tournament with CONFIDENCE!

the thing is not many ppl think trap knows best...in fact had u been here post WC....he was persona non grata...nearly as much as byron moreno.....


trap...rot in hell

 

But don't you all wish, for the sake of our beloved Azzurri, that he will be right this time? After all, he IS going to leave when his contract expires just before the tournament Final.. I don't think there is a question of him staying on.

I, for one, wish that he will be right this time (or get it right IN TIME) to win this tournament.