Brazil superstars flop miserably in the WC

Argentina, spain and Holland, on paper having extremely strong squads and yet again failing to impress.

Italy and France were neither expected to do much in the WC for two totally differant reasons yet they both got to the final of the tournament!!

Well, in Europe usually an European NT win the world cup (1958 excluded). Who were the European NTs who gained the final in the previous 6 editions of the world Cup? France, Italy, Germany. Which European NTs gained the semifinals? France, Italy, Germany...
Spain and the Netherlands are historical underachievers in the world cup.
So, where is the surprise?

 

Now, how many top players play as well for their countries as they do for their clubs?

Cristiano Ronaldo.

 

Cristiano Ronaldo.

I actually said earlier in the post that I was referring to players at their peak!!

 

Buffon as well, the best in the world with Italy and Juve, his special perfomances when Juve won the title in 2002 then he excelled in the WC 2002, then Juve winning the title in 2003, he was the best player for Italy in Euro 2004, same also goes for his performances with Juve in 2006 and WC 2006 were great as well. roud:

He's from the best players to maintain both club + international consistency.

C.Ron as FIG said also deserves a shout. :thumbsup:

 

The problem is the ridiculous level of fixture congestion. It's just not feasible to expect players to perform at their world-class level playing three matches per week during most stretches of the season. Also keep in mind that there is a World Cup, European Championship, Copa America etc alternating every few years. So most of the established International stars do not even get every summer off to recover and recharge their batteries.

Cristiano Ronaldo manages to maintain his form for both club and country because he has exceptional fitness levels and mind-boggling physique, you can not say the same about each and every single professional footballer.

 

Well, in Europe usually an European NT win the world cup (1958 excluded). Who were the European NTs who gained the final in the previous 6 editions of the world Cup? France, Italy, Germany. Which European NTs gained the semifinals? France, Italy, Germany...
Spain and the Netherlands are historical underachievers in the world cup.
So, where is the surprise?

I never said that I was surprised, I was just basically saying that there is an increasing depreciation in the performances of top players on big teams these days. Maradonna in 94' showed more (even in his frail state) then most of the supposed top stars at the world cup in 2006. While I truely enjoyed the 2006 (as I did the 2002) world cup, the facts are that once again the big players didnt really perform. These days top players arent performing, but I believe its for differant reasons then why it might of been in previous times. It might of been bad tactics or an off day or two, but not as much as just not really caring or preparing properly. Like I said, there is always shocks etc in football and looking at the teams in finals etc you wouldnt think much differance but if you look deeper I think the reasons for teams doing better are changing and more so because top players arent performing.


Germany in 2002 were the supposed worst German team in recent history according to their own fans (hammered by england in the qualifiers 5-1 in germany etc) and Brazil had qualified with the worst brazilian teams qualifying record ever.

In France 98' most thought that Brazil were a dead cert to win the trophy!

Brazil in 2006 mirror Madrid in that they look like a bunch of individuals looking for 7 training games in world cups. They have arguably the biggest forward talent in the world by far, yet they were pathetic and undone by a french master who, while amazing in that game, was past his best. They arguably had a bigger squad full of more supposed "world class players" then in previous seasons yet they havent looked this bad since 1990!!

The england team weakly went out, tactics aside, they should be able to beat portugal. In truth, in the 2006 world cup, tactics won the world cup, not necessarily the strongest teams on paper. I just dont believe that players give it the same they used to (top players that is), they just dont care unless they believe that this game will enhance their own interests. France and Italy had more to prove then any of the top teams and it showed, they wanted it more then anybody and their performances on the pitches showed exactly that.

Like I said, i can only comment on what I have seen, I just dont think players care anymore!

 

Buffon as well, the best in the world with Italy and Juve, his special perfomances when Juve won the title in 2002 then he excelled in the WC 2002, then Juve winning the title in 2003, he was the best player for Italy in Euro 2004, same also goes for his performances with Juve in 2006 and WC 2006 were great as well. roud:

He's from the best players to maintain both club + international consistency.

C.Ron as FIG said also deserves a shout. :thumbsup:

Like I said i was talking about players at the peak of their careers so ronaldo cant be in that. C ron is still young and like most youngsters has energy to burn, he wont be doin that when hes 28 or 29!!

For Brazil from what I hear, Kaka is the only established top player who plays well (and hes not reached his peak so in essence theres nobody).

For Holland, spain england I dont recall too many players recently who have consistantly performed aswell as they can.

Germany are the shining example of a team with good players that go a long way generally because they have the right mentality and approach to games.

As far as goalkeepers are concerned, I dont think goalkeepers can afford the luxury of relaxing in any competitive games as generally mistakes by keepers are highlighted more then mistakes by any other players on the park! Buffon is the exception rather then the rule.

For all the supposed world class players, in their peak, I find it speaks volumes that very few can be confidently said to be Obviously giving it 100%, even in half their internationals.

And I dont agree with this fixture congestion arguement. In england the used to play 4 more league games, always had the fa cup and not every team makes it to the champions league finals. Take into account that most big players are on big teams and are rested for smaller games, and the fact that players are fitter then they have ever been, I dont really think that this holds much ground! Why can lampard and gerrard look crap for england but good for their clubs a week later, certainly nothing to do with fitness. Either you care and you give it your all for your country or dont play. I think a player should be honored to play for their country every time and treat it like it was their last (friendlys aside).

Essien has the mentality that I am talking about. Looks every bit as good with ghana as he does with chelsea because he gives it every bit as much. Not an awful lot of players that can say that!

 

why should it be death cause top nations are failing
the increased import of players from all around the world into leagues like english and spanish is sure to leave a devastating impact on the development of young players in those countries which in return gives less quality picks for the nts.

the only trouble is that fans from those nations are so obsessed with their clubs doing well they don't care about anything that goes on outside stadiums of their teams so when their nt doesn't do well its international football that sucks and not their nts.
international football after all is just a little more than a reflection of work done with the youngsters.

 

yes, it has died, it's miles behind the level of CL, only the Italy v Germany game in the whole World Cup came close to levels of latter stage CL.

 

Like I said i was talking about players at the peak of their careers so ronaldo cant be in that. C ron is still young and like most youngsters has energy to burn, he wont be doin that when hes 28 or 29!!

Buffon is 28

 

only the Italy v Germany game in the whole World Cup came close to levels of latter stage CL.

PIRLO!!!! GROSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

GILAAA, DEL PIERO!!!

 

Buffon is 28

I know, I meant Buffon was the exception (as a peak player) then the rule, ronaldo is not at his peak.:smileani:

 

Buffon is 28

29, but same thing.

 

He became 29 like 2 months ago, anyway.

back to topic.

Nesta back in his injury-free days was great for Italy and Milan, same with Canna when he was at Juve.

 

He became 29 like 2 months ago, anyway.

I was 10 about 11 years ago. p

 

I can only speak for myself but I put club before country everytime and so do a lot of english fans particulary those who support a team in the premiership ,I associate the england team with the lower league ,england is their chance of potential glory.

there is fixture congestion but if someone suggested cutting the number of teams in the premiership so we could have more time for internationals there would be an outcry ,international level is ****ing boring ,all these meaningless friendlies against tiny countrie or qualifiers that just literally go on for years I haven't got the patience to be arsed ,when england finally do play they manage to play a match in the middle of the season ,its an inconveniance to the real interest that is the league and the champions league.


To make things worse england are boring and we have to play countries like andorra I mean who gives a shit really? I know that is patronising but its the equivalent of america having a war with the falkland isles or something its a mismatch so stupid you wonder what its all for.Mind you at least it guarantees a win and theres not many of them about for england at the moment. I would piss myself laughing for months if england drew with andorra I almost wish it just for the hilarity of it all.

I don't think some of the players feel that passionate about england ,gerrard can't feel the same pride playing for england as he can being captain of his boyhood club ,all the players ever get is stick from the media ,it must wear them down to an etent they must just dread beign called up.

 

Cannavaro

 

The england team weakly went out, tactics aside, they should be able to beat portugal.

No

 

I missed that part because he conceals his snidey remarks in long babbling p Why the heck should England beat Portugal? Is the field you prove yourself, and England NEVER does that. But are talked as they are great or favourites come the next tourno (they win things on paper, no where else), like they have a divine right to beat their opposition, instead of actually doing the deed on the pitch.

 

a larger problem is players getting permits to play for other nations thats not in their blood, or they are not from.

 

No

Exactly, Portugal deserved the win, England were crap.

 

To make things worse england are boring and we have to play countries like andorra I mean who gives a shit really? Mind you at least it guarantees a win >>


You probably once said this about Israel and now what? Every country is entitled to their chance.

 

Im sure this has been discussed before and there maybe a thread about this somewhere already, but I wanted to know if its the same the world over for international soccer teams.

I can only speak on what I have seen -

Brazil superstars flop miserably in the WC

Argentina, spain and Holland, on paper having extremely strong squads and yet again failing to impress.

Brazil flopped because Parreira couldn't get the best out of his side. Argentina didn't impress? To most they were the most impressive team in WC up until the QF stage. A goal conceded in the last 10 minutes against the hosts allowed the match to go to penalties otherwise Argentina could of gone far. Spain and Holland have never won a WC that is not to say there not good. Holland really wasn't considered a hot favourite last WC and Spain well they have never even passed the QF stage. Countries like Poland, Portugal and Sweden have done it more than once! Point is you cannot really use this as an argument to base eveyrthing on.

Italy and France were neither expected to do much in the WC for two totally differant reasons yet they both got to the final of the tournament!!

Last time Italy won the WC (before the last one) was in 82 when they were ranked as top 20 team, there was betting scandals and Serie A wasn't even that strong at the time os noone not even Italian gave Italy and hope of winning let alone beating Brasil who were hot favourite and second favourite Argentina. Zico and co. were regarded the best Brazilian team they had ever fielded. Yet they went out in the second group stage to Italy and a man name Rossi who was at centre of the scandals. Notice a pattern?

Now, closer to home england, full of supposed superstars, cant break down an average Israel (among Other disappointing results in their group).

My own country, Ireland have been absolutely awful, despite the fact I think we have decent players (in international terms) but no matter how bad we are playing the teams around us are doing their best to help us.

Now, how many top players play as well for their countries as they do for their clubs? I think there has been an increasing trend of quality players reaching their peak (later 20's) and by then their interest in International football (and sometimes club aswell) has been lost.

For Ireland (and england in big qualifiers) the bigger players seem to be more motivated for the bigger games. In the other games they look like its an inconvenience for them. even in the world cup, some players just dont seem to care.

Henry and Lampard are but two players I can say have honestly not performed to the level they have shown for their clubs. I dont believe that managers or tactics can make world class players invisible (play Zidane anywhere and he would do something special in more games then not).

With all due respect to Zidane, he had two brilliant games in the world cup (where he was superb) but thats not a full tournament when your team played 7 games. I didnt see enough of Italy to comment on Cannavaro, but isnt this more a sign that the supposed top players in the world (who are normally attackers) underperformed?
At the moment, scotland and Northern Ireland have better chances of qualifying to the knockouts of the European Championships then Ireland, Wales and England, yet you could probobley pick out more so called top quality players in the latter three.

While understand what you are saying here, having witnessed England's performance of recent along with Ireland a few days ago but this has being going on half a century.

Players at clubs have being playing with each other for longer so they know how to position themselves, when to make runs and react to their team-mates. International football can never equal this and since the top clubs in europe acquire all the best players in the world you will always get better teams.

When you watch England and Ireland I can see how it may appear they are not putting as much effort but the fact is they are trying just as hard if not harder but because they have had little time playing together they struggle with composure, awareness and overall understand of what to do on any given situation given the perception their not putting as much effort.

Henry and Lampard and excellent players (Henry being a lot better) but there only as good as the rest of the team. They need their team-mates to supply the right passes and at the right time and provide the right space on the field for these players to achieve their full potential. I do not see a decline in performances by these players at Internatioal level just a decline in team-play to equal it.

History has shown that International football always comes up with surprises and teams that little is expected of do better then we all thought. That said, can anybody remember a world cup where so many top players underperformed?

History you might need to catch up on. I'm not trying to be condescending or the sake of it but you do ask the question and there have being many WC's and players who have underperformed. 34, 50, 54, 62, 66, 78, 82, 90, 94, 98, 02 and yes even last year. You could choose almost any world cup were players had under performed and of course we are talking about half a dozen games here. Players in club football can go through bad patches of form than last more than a month! Injuries and fatigue all add to WC failures.

This WC I have not noticed anything more than any other one. It just that players that under perform are then forgotten over time and hence the perception is that every WC there is a bigger under performance but that is misleading because there isn't someone there who can remember and remind us all the time.

I really believe that any manager with 11 players who have good ability but loadsa drive and determination, will do better then teams packed with undoubted quality, particularly when they are up against it. Im sure it might not be that straight forward, but after being at Croke Park for irelands first soccer international to be played there, I was very dissapointed, not even with the performance, as much as the effort put in by the players.

This is true of any club, any sport and anywhere so it has no direct correlation to International competition even though indirectly it harbours this when comparing it to season long competition.

It was a huge moment in Irish sporting history for many reasons and has captured the imagination of the public (including the rugby) and was not lost on anybody, including the players, yet Irelands "big guns" (shay Given aside) looked as though it was just another game. Some rugby players were crying with pride no more then a month ago, during our national anthem against england. They were so proud. For the Irish soccer team there were less then half the team who could be accused of showing true passion during the game. The passion has gone in international football when I see a country that used to only have passion and no skill and have it replaced with better quality but less effort. . . . .

While our manager is bad, a player should have passion for their country no matter where they are playing or in what tactics. Playing for your country is a privalege, not a job, I dont think many players realise that. Where once we had men, now we have spoilt brats . How many fans can actually say that the players have really given it their all ( and I mean how many fans from the likes of france, england, spain, Holland, argentina, brazil etc who have unbelievable talent to burn) . . Does anybody else think the same about their players or teams????

Your last comment should pretty much explaining WHY international football and competition will not die. There is something special regardless of whether you're play Kazakstan or Andorra, Germany or Brazil, that comes from representing your country. The unity and pride that comes with it is unrivalled so much so that the World Cup is still by far and away the most watched event on the planet SIX MORE TIMES than the whole of the olympic games combined. It just goes to show that it's not dead but rather thriving as ever.

 

The problem with international football is its low quality, IMO. These days teamwork and understanding between the players are absolutely vital components of the game and not many international teams are good at that. Add to that the fact that many stars seem to care little for playing for their country, especially in qualifiers. If I were the Italy coach, I would never call Totti again - deciding to play when he feels like it? Retire for good or play when the coach wants you to play, damn it!
I am certain that a middle table EPL or La Liga club has a good chance of beating many of the top international teams. Also, there are too many games in the qualifiers. I would like to see some knockout system introduced in the place of these stupid groups. There will be even more upsets and fewer games, the stars will have to concentrate and try harder more often. But then again with fewer games, the team chemistry will be even worse and so will be the qaulity of football...It's a no win situation.

 

The problem with international football is its low quality, IMO. These days teamwork and understanding between the players are absolutely vital components of the game and not many international teams are good at that. Add to that the fact that many stars seem to care little for playing for their country, especially in qualifiers. If I were the Italy coach, I would never call Totti again - deciding to play when he feels like it? Retire for good or play when the coach wants you to play, damn it!
I am certain that a middle table EPL or La Liga club has a good chance of beating many of the top international teams. Also, there are too many games in the qualifiers. I would like to see some knockout system introduced in the place of these stupid groups. There will be even more upsets and fewer games, the stars will have to concentrate and try harder more often. But then again with fewer games, the team chemistry will be even worse and so will be the qaulity of football...It's a no win situation.

But that is the beauty of international football, it's not the best technically but it stills stirs up more passions then El Clasico, El Superclasico, Milan, Liverpool, Old Firm derbies put together. Just look at the Greece-Turkey match 2 days ago. I'd anyday pay to watch the WC final over the CL or WCC or Libertadores just to support Italy or India. Speaking of which take India's case, they are ranked 130 something in the world, but 150,000 people still fill up the Salt Lake Stadium to watch them play Brunei or Yemen, let alone Japan or Saudi Arabia.