[Glen]

Laudrup: Baresi was only coming into his own when he was a bencher in '82. Scirea was in his prime. It would be a non-argument going in that direction.

Scirea IS underrated internationally though; in part because Juventus only won the one 'champions cup' whereas the great Milan with Baresi as the captain won several. Another (tragic) reason is that Scirea's legacy is not kept up to date by his presence in the football world today. Like Beckenbaur especially, but also players like Baresi, Cruyiff, Platini etc. etc. etc. are still part of the football scene and are reverred as such. People who are too young to remember see them, ask around how they did- pick up tapes if they're enthusiasts etc. Gaetano Scirea inspires little such attention :sob: . I believe he IS rated all the way up there by Italians (and International fans) who remember seing him play. At least- that's been my impression.

As for ability- I think Scirea deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Maldini, but I guess there's only one Baresi. At least- the Baresi before the twilight years. It's unfortunate that he didn't age with the same grace Maldini, Ciro and Sensini do. But Baresi in his prime is the best defender I have ever seen in my life. Full stop.

Maldini has obviously proffitted immensely from Nesta's presence. It would be absurd arguing otherwise. Paolo's presence has also enabled Nesta to focus on doing his defensive tasks even better, because Maldini steps in to do lots of the coverage Nesta used to do allover the entire Lazio defence.

What point you tried to make with the Maradona thing? It was obviously a misrepresentation. A write down of Ferrara's skill? The point about him being 'modest'.. albeit a joke... adding to the sentiment.

I am biased. Everyone is to some extent. Some consciously- some not. In this case I just don't think it's close enough to be in doubt.

I consider Ciro clearly the better defender. It seems to me that the few respondents in this topic who aren't Milan or Juve fans have felt the same.

 

[Billy_Montreal]

I hold Billy Costacurta in high regard and I think he is and continues to be under-appreciated and under-rated. To be honest I would not even put Ferrara close to him. Because:
- Ferrara's presence and contribution to the National Team is pathetic and non-existent. vs. Costacurta being selected at 23 years old and playing right up until the days of Zoff. (The Baresi theory is a bit unfounded because he continued playing on the National Team without him).
- Ferrara played on teams that will be remembered for offence more than defence...Maradona, Cannigia..Zidane, Del Piero, Inzaghi. I think he is a crowd favorite at Juve for his personality rather than skill. He kind of had to re-invent himself.
- Costacurta was and remained part of the strongest Defence of our generation. The defence unit was shuffled often. If Costacurta was not doing his job they would have shipped him off like they did many others. Also he is much more of classy and finesse defender than Ciro who plays very rough and "stop at all costs defender": Costacurta (even today) is still at a great level today because of his excellent positioning and fine touches. Ciro certainly lacks that and the over-all general defender quality present in Costacurta.
IMO Costacurta wins.

 

[Billy_Montreal]

Glen...though they may sound ridiculous...Nesta also profited from Maldini's presence. His transition was not smooth the first few months. He had a great teacher and defender to back up his errors.

 

[AMOROSO!]

Ferrara. Costacurta was always overrated in my opinion. Even at his prime.

 

[Glen]

ACMilanMontreal: (or are you the topic starter with another profile?)....I said as much. Great players benefit from eachother.

Ferrara's NT record cannot be compared to Costacurta's. That's obvious. For those who don't know what the two men have done in serieA... a mix-up in terms of quailty could be understood.

Three reasons:

1: Ferrara was in the squad for WC 1990 and played against England, injured leading up to WC 1994, broke his left leg before the WC 1998. After having been a regular in the qualifiers.

Just to underline- this is a presentation of the Italy team from CNN before the 1998 WC:

"Ciro Ferrara (Juventus), 31, 44 caps.
Out with a broken left leg but fighting to get back in shape for France. If he makes it, will be Maldini's first-choice sweeper. Experienced player who joined Juventus in 1994 after decade at Diego Maradona-inspired Napoli. "
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/world/events/1998/worldcup/teams/italy/player_profiles.html


2: With Baresi and Maldini there was a very consistant Milan core in the NT at many stages (include Tassotti and it's a banker). It made sense selecting Costacurta ahead of Ferrara at times (specifically in 1994 when Milan had just won the CL again), because the Milan players formed a superb unit already from their club teams.

3: Ferrara was a right back until 1994 when he followed Lippi to Juve. The right back position was previously occupied by the NT captain. Bergomi of course, who was more high profile than Ferrara seing how Ferrara had made his name at Napoli, whereas Bergomi was the man at Inter.


Ferrara was even injured for the 1996 EURO. This man is one of the unluckiest and most underrated defenders in the business.

 

[bono]

I think I have seen them both playing in their prime and post-prime, and both of them were and are simply great defenders and still do pretty well, when called upon.

It’s a very tough call and frankly I cant see myself making it now and here.

Its very hard to separate Billi's sports-life from the Ds he has played with. he was lucky, they say, but why wasn’t I there, or anyone else for that matter - it was him who stood with Baresi and Paolo for years. Stood their like a rock in what was the best D I haver seen in my life. And still does. Last game v. Chievo just confirmed the man is a wealth of experience and skills. He has driven me crazy but who hasn’t ...

Ciro has been the main D guy for, what is, I think, the best years Juve has ever had, with all respect to Platini and Co. - the Lippi years. Since 94, I think, till this very day. His unluck with the NT should not be holded against him.

Its not possible to say, I cant, I wont. Both are true living legends of two of the greatest clubs in their greatest times.

PS Amo, how many times I have to tell you are a Juventino undercover. :tongue:

 

[Laudrup]

What point you tried to make with the Maradona thing? It was obviously a misrepresentation. A write down of Ferrara's skill? The point about him being 'modest'.. albeit a joke... adding to the sentiment.

Yes, perhaps a misrepresentation but a write down of Ferrara´s skill? Please give me a little more credit than that.. You think I would deliberately re-write the quote to make a point(still not clear to me how the point would be a write down of his skill?). One of the quotes speaks for Billy, the other for Ferrara.. Just to illustrate that it´s a matter of subjective judgement/opinion and no one holds the truth..

"una vez le dije que era el mejor defensor del mundo. No sé si era cierto, pero lo quiero tanto que yo lo sentía así." - Diego in "YO SOY EL DIEGO"

And you´re right.. My bad..

I am biased. Everyone is to some extent. Some consciously- some not. In this case I just don't think it's close enough to be in doubt.

I agree, obviously.. That´s my point.. It just seems to me sometimes you see yourself as the messenger of truth, consciously or unconsciously, and try to argue that the opposite argument is pure bias. But maybe that´s just the essence of a debate..

 

[bono]

It just seems to me sometimes you see yourself as the messenger of truth, consciously or unconsciously, and try to argue that the opposite argument is pure bias ...

Interesting! This one has never occured in my mind when I am arguing with Glen so often!

:tongue: :tongue:

 

[Glen]

I agree, obviously.. That´s my point.. It just seems to me sometimes you see yourself as the messenger of truth, consciously or unconsciously, and try to argue that the opposite argument is pure bias. But maybe that´s just the essence of a debate..

I don't really believe in the notion of truth so that would be rather weird. However- I do agree that debate is about making as compelling argument as possible to get to the nature of who's more likely to be right.

This topic is about opinions. I personally think Ciro is a class above Costacurta. That is not 'true' or necessarily correct. It is my opinion, and I have tried to give reasons for it.

Besides Milan and Juve fans- I have so far not seen anyone other than Toni, Arianna, Amoroso and FrancescoTotti + Primo in the Roma forum answer to this question. They ALL said Ferrara. Make of that what you will. I do not claim that their, most likely less biased, opinions amount to some essence of truth. But it's 'interesting' nonetheless.

 

[Laudrup]

debate is about making as compelling argument as possible to get to the nature of who's more likely to be right.

But do we get to the nature of who´s more likely to be right or just who´s more likely to create the "compelling" arguments, most often on the basis of personal preference? Is it not the same people who always end up "being right" then? In my eyes quite a frightful thought.. I personally think debate is most of all a way of obtaining personal satisfaction and a "healthy" self-concept..

 

[Steph!]

Ciro Ferrara is the better defender.

He emerges as the very best defender Juventus had in more than a decade. That alone says a lot. Admittedly Milan's iron defence of the early 90's may have never been matched but during Ciro's period (the Golden era), Juve has welcomed numerous top defenders (Vierchowod, Torricelli, Montero, Porrini, Thuram but to name a few) hence -bar this season- it's a club of extremely high defensive standards.

Ciao.

 

[bono]

I am sorry Steph, but your 1st claim is not supported from almost anything you say in the 2nd par. True Ciro appears as a great defender from Juve's bets period. True Bili was part of the great D ever, may be.

However, it doesn’t mean automatically or even indirectly Ciro is better than Bily over all. If we speculate a little - what would you think Ciro would have done or looked like if he had Baresi and Paolo beside him.

Or put in another form: Imagine 1st Ciro in Milan in our best days and then Billy in Juve at the same time - I mean, your best days.

My wild guess would be that Billy would have gotten more playing time at Juve than Ciro in Milan. What I am saying actually is that, Billy would have started over Ciro in Milan, most of the time, and over any of the rest you listed, with Ciro in Juve. A wild guess again. However, it’s a speculation, and I do not claim you can say who is better if you apply it. But as s.o. said its quite "interesting"
...

 

[Grinch]

Ciro Ferrara. :thumbsup:

Ferrara always had a stronger presence inside the defense. Costacurta was a very useful team player, but Ferrara was more than that: a leader.

And I'm not a Juventino...

 

[Tony75]

Let's be thankful that Italy, Milan, Napoli & Juventus had/have such great defenders compared to other nations & call it a draw because we'll never agree! Is that agreed?

 

[Steph!]

I leave all "whatcha think would've happen if's" to you, Bono.

If you don't mind- you and I should avoid to speculate in any sort of way, at all costs. I notice you're eager to debate but I neither have the will nor time to join you. Usually, it's a waste of time... More so now, let me tell you.

For the record, I was merely denying the Canadian fan whatever his name is a point, and subordinately emphatizing on one of the points Glen developped above.

The original question was about 'impact' anyway. Impact doesn't care about speculation.

Ciao.

 

[Mart]

And perhaps it's better if you do not consider the supporters of foreign clubs... just a suggestion, cause they usually have no clue. :tongue:

Cheers Toni!!!:tongue:
I 've always liked Ciro Ferrara , but it's a tough call and very much a personal choice.

 

[Billy_Montreal]

Firstly, no Glen to your question...many people know me well from another Milan forum and many here can attest to my support for Billy Costacurta. But I have a feeling I know the starter of this thread.
Secondly, IMO I could never see Ciro fit in to a defensive unit with Baresi and Maldini. He lacks the quality. In his career he also lacks the experience of playing in competitions at the same level as Costacurta. Ciro is about hustling and what Americans call a "Charlie Hustle". Billy has adopted this style later on to make up for his age. However, even today Costacurta's positioning and mind read of the offence is something Ciro lacks. On the other hand billy lacks Ciro's ability to "chop at the bit" (Gattuso and Davids qualities). Why wasn't Ciro on the 94 squad? Injured :rollani: he was 26 at the time.
By the way, if I did have a discussion with a Juventino friend about this: it would be case closed. There would be no discussion

 

[Ruffian]

Firstly, no Glen to your question...many people know me well from another Milan forum and many here can attest to my support for Billy Costacurta.

I'm willing to attest to that. Hi, acMilanMontreal, and I've notice you've changed your capitalization.

Ciro Ferrara is a great defender with a wonderful track record and, as has been pointed out, he was unlucky with injuries at crucial times (shades of Nesta ). However, Costacurta's name evokes magic, both with the great Milan and with the Azzurri. More prosaically, Costacurta is more valuable to Milan, even at the advanced age of 37, than Ferrara is to Juventus.

Juventus have a history of solid, efficient, tough defenses; Milan have had the best defenses in the world. Costacurta was part of that and he can still hold his own.

 

[ToniSamp]

Cheers Toni!!!:tongue:
I 've always liked Ciro Ferrara , but it's a tough call and very much a personal choice.

You support an Italian club too. :lala:
And what a club! Probably the best! :tongue:

 

[bono]

And I'm not a Juventino...

But admit it, garincha - you are getting closer and closer with each post and discussion, to become one! Come on, be honest! :tongue: