[Andy Christ]

R9 seems at least 5 spots too high.

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

So, what are your general thoughts on the tiers of Italian strikers? @ToniSamp @pirri @Firdaus

Platinum V: Meazza
Gold II: Piola, Riva
Gold III: Rossi
Gold IV: Bettega, Boniperti, Vieiri
Gold V: Gabetto, Schiavio, Toni, Vialli
Silver I: Albotelli, Amaedi, Boninsegna, Borel, Di Natale, Inzaghi, Signori...probably some more but these are closest to gold.

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

R9 seems at least 5 spots too high.

I can see your point if you are comparing career achievements to some of the players below him.

 

[pirri]

So, what are your general thoughts on the tiers of Italian strikers? @ToniSamp @pirri @Firdaus

Platinum V: Meazza
Gold II: Piola, Riva
Gold III: Rossi
Gold IV: Bettega, Boniperti, Vieiri
Gold V: Gabetto, Schiavio, Toni, Vialli
Silver I: Albotelli, Amaedi, Boninsegna, Borel, Di Natale, Inzaghi, Signori...probably some more but these are closest to gold.

I'd switch vialli with altobelli. switch bettega and rossi.

This is how I'd role (

Platinum V: Meazza
Gold II: Piola, Riva
Gold III: Bettega
Gold IV: Rossi, Boniperti, Vieri
Gold V: Altobelli, Boninsegna, Anastasi, Toni, Gabetto
Silver I: Signori, Amadei, Di Natale, Vialli, Inzaghi, Schiavo

Then you have guys like Chiesa, Montella, Quagliarella, Savoldi, Pulici etc.


he might not have had a great legacy for the italian national team because he stopped playing for them after 62 but Jose Altafini, quality wise would be in Gold III. Rossi i put in gold IV simply more for legacy, otherwise talent wise i'd have him in silver I

 

[Firdaus]

Good to see Zlatan deservedly fairly quite low.

@Firdaus What's going on boy.

😆

All that matters is that he's placed higher than Villa. But even I didn't expect that he'd be almost 30 spots above ya boi.

Seriously though...isn't Raul a bit low at 41? Dude was a beast until he wasn't.

 

[pirri]

by the way, i only put vieri over altobelli at PEAK. Altobelli maintained a higher standard for much longer than vieri because he was more intelligent of a striker, more well rounded. Vieri was a bull but when he lost some of his explosion/pace it was noticeable.

Altobelli, if you look at his goalscoring career in europe, was elite. I believe he'd be scoring 25-30 goals per league season in todays game easily.

 

[LCF]

😆

All that matters is that he's placed higher than Villa. But even I didn't expect that he'd be almost 30 spots above ya boi.

Seriously though...isn't Raul a bit low at 41? Dude was a beast until he wasn't.

Lol.

Yeah Villa still too low. Eternally underrated.

 

[pirri]

oh, @joaquimdelblanco1

Altafini must be in your list btw. He was a truly world class player. I'd put him between 50-60

 

[pirri]

it's ok.. i just saw him

I missed him on your list : P

 

[pirri]

i believe cantona is ranked too high also. He was talented, dont get me wrong but i think he's more worthy of being in the 70-80's on your list.

 

[footballFOCUS]

R9 seems at least 5 spots too high.

I think he’s too high too…

In terms of strikers he’s #1:

1. Ronaldo Nazário
2. Gerd Müller
3a. Marco van Basten
3b. Romário
Then the likes of Uwe Seeler, Gabriel Batistuta, Sándor Kocsis, Denis Law, Luis Suárez, Robert Lewandowski and Andrei Shevchenko in the following tier, ranked dependant on what your criteria is.

All-time forwards:
1. Lionel Messi
2. Pelé
3. Johan Cruyff
4. Cristiano Ronaldo
5. Alfredo Di Stéfano
6. Ferenc Puskás
7. Eusebio
(The likes of Roberto Baggio, Giuseppe Meazza and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge following closely)


Both strikers and forwards consolidated:

Lionel Messi
Pelé
[These forwards are in the GOAT discussion. Sustained greatness and phenomenal goalscoring, dribbling technique and creative ability. Messi is both the best false 9 and wingforward. Pele is the greatest secondary striker/withdrawn forward.]

Johan Cruyff
Cristiano Ronaldo
Alfredo Di Stéfano
Ferenc Puskás
[Longevity, goals, generational talents who stood out amongst other greats. Cruyff’s genius football IQ combined with his sublime technique make him the most complete attacker to come out of Europe. Ronaldo’s goalscoring records are awe-worthy, an efficient goalscorer while lacking the technical grace and guile of the other GOATs. Di Stefano is the most complete forward of the pre-Golden era. Puskas is one World Cup away from being in the GOAT discussion. Divine footballer.]

Ronaldo Nazário
Gerd Müller
Eusebio
[R9’s peak ability is GOAT-worthy but unfortunately doesn’t have that sustained greatness. Football’s greatest what-if, injuries depriving us of 8+ years of his true potential. Ronaldo at 75% was still better than most mortals though. Der Bomber is the most lethal finisher I’ve ever seen. Eusebio is another force of nature, but more than just a goalscorer]

Roberto Baggio
Marco van Basten
Romário
Giuseppe Meazza
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
[Italy’s most skilled footballer, Baggio, a World Cup and more stable club career would have elevated Baggio even higher. Europe’s most complete striker, Van Basten, injuries again curtailed his prime, but he was the best striker scoring in the toughest era/league against the toughest defenders. Romario is South America’s God of finishing, such immense control and composure infront of goal. If he’d scored more in the toughest leagues in his prime his legacy would be greater. Meazza is the GOAT before Di Stefano and Pele showed up. Described as Superman by eyewitnesses. Rummenigge is Germany’s most complete forward, and forth greatest player after Beckenbauer, Matthaus and Muller]

 

[footballFOCUS]

Lol.

Yeah Villa still too low. Eternally underrated.

Agreed. I am a David Villa fan boy and often see him be underrated in all-time lists too. He deserves to jump up a tier.

David Villa is the perfect supporting forward:

• can lead the attack (guarantee you 20+ goals)
• can be a secondary attacker (maximise the game of your other forwards and wingers) be the Robin to a Batman
• his all-round dribbling, crossing and shooting technique is outstanding
• consistent goalscorer in one of La Liga’s greatest and most competitive era (while not playing for a Barcelona or Real Madrid!)
• his consistent and clutch performances on the International stage is truly impressive too
• intangible / off-ball excellence: versatility, high workrate, high football IQ, two-footed, self-sacrificing…

There are other forwards with this similar profile I admire:
Stoichkov, Blokhin, Elkjaer, Kempes, Law, Eto’o

 

[LCF]

It's a tough one cos there's been a lot of great strikers. But I look at the players above him and a lot weren't better than him. (Likes of Drogba? RVP? Not for me. Villa was also always the equal of Eto'o and both were known as the 2 best La Liga strikers around that time for years)

But I get that he never played at a top club for that long and when he did go to Barca his peak was cut short by a bad injury and the fact he didn't play in his best position cos of Messi but still did well.

But he still achieved everything. Multiple titles, Euros and WC where he was both times one of the best players and the CL whilst being important and scoring in the final.

 

[Andy Christ]

also Arsenio Erico at 15th seems mega random

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

also Arsenio Erico at 15th seems mega random

His match ratings were very high and goal record was outstanding in a strong Argentinian League. He was also considered one of the greatest players ever by several players who saw him (Di Stefano included), even after the likes of Meazza and Moreno had played.

I think he probably doesn't appear as high in other lists because he never played in an official international match, let alone a World Cup (he was asked to play for Argentina at the World Cup but stayed loyal to Paraguay).

 

[footballFOCUS]

also Arsenio Erico at 15th seems mega random

His match ratings were very high and goal record was outstanding in a strong Argentinian League. He was also considered one of the greatest players ever by several players who saw him (Di Stefano included), even after the likes of Meazza and Moreno had played.

I think he probably doesn't appear as high in other lists because he never played in an official international match, let alone a World Cup (he was asked to play for Argentina at the World Cup but stayed loyal to Paraguay).

Yes, I always like to put weight to a strikers goals in their era versus goals scored in other eras.

i.E are Erico’s 40 goals a season in the 1930s Argentinian league of more value than Batistuta’s 20 goals a season in 1990s Serie A? Are Erico’s 26 goals for Paraguay of higher weight than Batigol’s 56 international goals?

Erico was no doubt the best striker of the mid-to-late 1930s but era tax needs to be added in an all-time evaluation. Did he demonstrate his greatness against the best defenders in the most competitive leagues and on the International stage?

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

Yes, I always like to put weight to a strikers goals in their era versus goals scored in other eras.

i.E are Erico’s 40 goals a season in the 1930s Argentinian league of more value than Batistuta’s 20 goals a season in 1990s Serie A? Are Erico’s 26 goals for Paraguay of higher weight than Batigol’s 56 international goals?

Erico was no doubt the best striker of the mid-to-late 1930s but era tax needs to be added in an all-time evaluation. Did he demonstrate his greatness against the best defenders in the most competitive leagues and on the International stage?

Well I think that takes us onto a more complex debate that's really difficult to answer, with players getting fitter, faster, stronger, better facilities, nutrition etc. more and more over time, and it just becomes to difficult to start comparing. Throw Victor Osimhen into 1930's Serie A and who knows, he might outscore Meazza. So I just try to judge players for what they were at the time.

 

[footballFOCUS]

Well I think that takes us onto a more complex debate that's really difficult to answer, with players getting fitter, faster, stronger, better facilities, nutrition etc. more and more over time, and it just becomes to difficult to start comparing. Throw Victor Osimhen into 1930's Serie A and who knows, he might outscore Meazza. So I just try to judge players for what they were at the time.

We don’t need to transport Osimhen to the 1930s though… his best season was 26 goals for Napoli in 2022-23. But what is the strength of this version of Serie A… what is the quality of the defenders?

Van Basten’s 25 goals scored in the 1991-92 season are worth so much more than Osimhen’s 26 goals scored in 2022-23…

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

We don’t need to transport Osimhen to the 1930s though… his best season was 26 goals for Napoli in 2022-23. But what is the strength of this version of Serie A… what is the quality of the defenders?

Van Basten’s 25 goals scored in the 1991-92 season are worth so much more than Osimhen’s 26 goals scored in 2022-23…

Yes I agree, Serie A is weaker now of course. But it was just an example to demonstrate that once I try to start comparing era's and weighting them differently, it can become a 70, 80, 90 year difference that just becomes too nuanced of an argument.

 

[joaquimdelblanco1]

Yes I agree, Serie A is weaker now of course. But it was just an example to demonstrate that once I try to start comparing era's and weighting them differently, it can become a 70, 80, 90 year difference that just becomes too nuanced of an argument.

@footballFOCUS What I’m saying is, I have already taken the strength of the league into account with my rankings. Serie A in the 90’s is weighted more strongly than Argentina in the 30’s. But that is because of the quality of players and success of Italian clubs in Europe during that time, the fact that there is a 60 year time difference isn’t a factor I consider because that’s too complicated, if that makes sense.