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Flamengo(zico´s team) X Atlético-1981- a controversial match

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bruford

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
The best brazilians team in the early 80´s, flamengo(zico, leandro,junior,andrade,adilio) and atletico(reinaldo, eder, toninho cerezo,luisinho,joao leite,etc), had a crucial match in Libertadores´81.the winner of this match would advance to the semifinals. it could have been a great match, but unfortunately, on the first half,reinaldo and eder, the two best players of atletico´s side, were sent-off. the referee(jose roberto wright) didn´t show yellow cards for any of them, only red cards. atletico decided to stop the match and flamengo was declared the winner. libertadores´81 was the most important title on zico´s career.
do you agree with the expulsions? it´s on the minutes 0:27 and 1:04 of the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwwXKwHm6BI
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
it seems that eder accidentally(or not?) touched the referee when he was trying to get the ball. referee interpreted this attitude as a aggression and showed red card for the player.
even nowadays, the referee(jose roberto wright) is not welcome in atletico´s city(belo horizonte). the supporters never forgotten this match.
 
#4 ·
The foul wasnt even a yellow, there is no controversy there. Wright even flew to the place of the game in the same plane of Flamengo. Zico was friendly to Reinaldo and once in tv said there was barelly a hit, and he fell more to stop the game than because the hit was violent. It is good to point in 1981 the cards rules are nowhere was rigid as now.

When he decided to screw the game, Reinaldo alone had suffered more fouls than all flamengo team yet there was about 4 yellows to atletico and one to flamengo. Until today Wright is agressive against Atletico saying he had to show authority or he would lose control of the game.
 
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#5 ·
It seems that flamengo had many favourable decisions in winning some of their titles. Not to say that they werent a great team. But that game at the serra dourada was absurd. The pitch was ridiculous and referee even more so..
Its true that Atletico had players with bad tempers like Chicao and Eder but Eder and Reinaldo didnt deserve to be sent off by the laws of the era.
 
#6 ·
It is good to notice, a previous decision between both, the brazilian final in 1980 also had several red cards towards Atletico players. Reinaldo for example was sent off for suffering a foul and staying on the ground when the 100000 fla fans spent the time calling him "bichado", a slang for a player that is injuried, as everyone knew he was playing with a lot of pain and barely able to run. Just the referee considered that a "crime".
 
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#7 ·
JCamilo said:
It is good to notice, a previous decision between both, the brazilian final in 1980 also had several red cards towards Atletico players. Reinaldo for example was sent off for suffering a foul and staying on the ground when the 100000 fla fans spent the time calling him "bichado", a slang for a player that is injuried, as everyone knew he was playing with a lot of pain and barely able to run. Just the referee considered that a "crime".
Click to expand...
Yes.. that was also a scandlous decision.. flamengo were scared of Reinaldo.. Do you think the referee Aragao took a bribe ?..
 
#8 ·
Funny enough one of his nicknames was Aragalo. He was accused of corruption during his administration of Pacaembu after he quit refering (not sure what happened). Funny enough, Aragão and Wright were present in 5 finals won by Flamengo (Gremio 1982, Santos 1983, Internacional 1987 and Botafogo 1992).
 
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#9 ·
JCamilo said:
It is good to notice, a previous decision between both, the brazilian final in 1980 also had several red cards towards Atletico players. Reinaldo for example was sent off for suffering a foul and staying on the ground when the 100000 fla fans spent the time calling him "bichado", a slang for a player that is injuried, as everyone knew he was playing with a lot of pain and barely able to run. Just the referee considered that a "crime".
Click to expand...

Do you think that Andrade and Adilio deserved to be in the brazil squad for the 1982 world cup ? .. some people say that Santana didnt select them because of the rivalry between atletico and flamengo ? .. im not sure how true that is ...

i know that Tita didnt want to play on the right for Brazil and thats why Santana left him out of the squad...

Can i ask you - Did the Atletico and flamengo players like each other ? ..
- Do you think that Flamengo were helped by referees ?
 
#10 ·
JCamilo said:
Funny enough one of his nicknames was Aragalo. He was accused of corruption during his administration of Pacaembu after he quit refering (not sure what happened). Funny enough, Aragão and Wright were present in 5 finals won by Flamengo (Gremio 1982, Santos 1983, Internacional 1987 and Botafogo 1992).
Click to expand...
Yes Andrade's handball against Gremio was another shocking decision.. that was Aragao again if i remember correctly..
 
#11 ·
RIGSBY said:
Do you think that Andrade and Adilio deserved to be in the brazil squad for the 1982 world cup ? .. some people say that Santana didnt select them because of the rivalry between atletico and flamengo ? .. im not sure how true that is ...

i know that Tita didnt want to play on the right for Brazil and thats why Santana left him out of the squad...

Can i ask you - Did the Atletico and flamengo players like each other ? ..
- Do you think that Flamengo were helped by referees ?
Click to expand...
Andrade was not better than Batista, Falcao or Cerezo, who are the players fighting for the same spot and Adilio was similar to Paulo Isidoro. Tele actually left here Reinaldo, Nelinho, Leão and Raul. Those are more notable than Adilio and Adrade, specially considering they could play in Waldir Perez and Serginho place. But nobody would really complain if they were in the group.

Apparently, the players get along just fine - rumuors are that the group was split between São Paulo and Rio players while the atletico players just kept out of the way. I have seen Zico, Reinaldo, Junior, Cerezo getting along each other just fine, but those are not the more dirty players of both team.

And yeah, in both games Reinaldo's red cards are ridiculous decisions.
 
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#12 ·
JCamilo said:
It is good to notice, a previous decision between both, the brazilian final in 1980 also had several red cards towards Atletico players. Reinaldo for example was sent off for suffering a foul and staying on the ground when the 100000 fla fans spent the time calling him "bichado", a slang for a player that is injuried, as everyone knew he was playing with a lot of pain and barely able to run. Just the referee considered that a "crime".
Click to expand...
This sounds like the worst decision I ever heard about regarding football.
 
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#13 ·
JCamilo said:
Andrade was not better than Batista, Falcao or Cerezo, who are the players fighting for the same spot and Adilio was similar to Paulo Isidoro. Tele actually left here Reinaldo, Nelinho, Leão and Raul. Those are more notable than Adilio and Adrade, specially considering they could play in Waldir Perez and Serginho place. But nobody would really complain if they were in the group.

Apparently, the players get along just fine - rumuors are that the group was split between São Paulo and Rio players while the atletico players just kept out of the way. I have seen Zico, Reinaldo, Junior, Cerezo getting along each other just fine, but those are not the more dirty players of both team.

And yeah, in both games Reinaldo's red cards are ridiculous decisions.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. there seems to be a lot of different stories regarding that team. i have watched the great flamengo team of the 80s and Andrade never seemed to be as good as Cerezo. When he played in italy Andrades nickname was maviola ( slow motion) Cerezo performed alot better than Andrade in italian football . But some people did want Andrade in the team and accused Santana of minas gerais bias.?
- also i have been told that Santana didnt take Reinaldo to the '82 world cup because he didnt like Reinaldos lifestyle and that he was friends with homosexuals . Reinaldo by all accounts was fit enough to play in 1982 but santana didnt like his political views.
But Its also clear that Santana rated Reinaldo highly . Santana had admired Reinaldos talent since the day he first saw him play youth football at Atletico. So if Reinaldo was healthy then why would santana drop him from the team ?
There doesnt seem to be a definitive answer.
What is your opinion ?
 
#14 ·
Andrade was slow, but so was Gilberto Silva. His fuction at Fla was more passing and his defensive skills are related to the positioning. Cerezo however was in anothe level, a small "craque", he was only worst as a mid during his time to Zico and Falcão.

Here, the SP-RJ media (the axis) are extremelly biased. Very good players from Minas, Rio grande do sul had to play much better than those from RJ-MG. This damaged the nt career from many of them, Cerezo included as they blamed him for the demisse in the cup.

Reinaldo was injury prone, but the option of Tele until the second semester when brazil made a serie of friendlies in europe- Reinaldo was technically the level of Zico so it was hard to dislike him. At that time, Careca came and was well, so Tele was fine to use Careca and Reinaldo was dropped.

Reinaldo was politcally left-wing oriented. That is probally a stronger motive, as the militar group that controled the country didnt like it and they did a lot of pressure. All the package - the coming of Careca, reinaldo fragility (he was starting to enter in his final decline saddly), the political pressure - made Tele decide to leave him behind.
 
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#15 ·
JCamilo said:
Andrade was slow, but so was Gilberto Silva. His fuction at Fla was more passing and his defensive skills are related to the positioning. Cerezo however was in anothe level, a small "craque", he was only worst as a mid during his time to Zico and Falcão.

Here, the SP-RJ media (the axis) are extremelly biased. Very good players from Minas, Rio grande do sul had to play much better than those from RJ-MG. This damaged the nt career from many of them, Cerezo included as they blamed him for the demisse in the cup.

Reinaldo was injury prone, but the option of Tele until the second semester when brazil made a serie of friendlies in europe- Reinaldo was technically the level of Zico so it was hard to dislike him. At that time, Careca came and was well, so Tele was fine to use Careca and Reinaldo was dropped.

Reinaldo was politcally left-wing oriented. That is probally a stronger motive, as the militar group that controled the country didnt like it and they did a lot of pressure. All the package - the coming of Careca, reinaldo fragility (he was starting to enter in his final decline saddly), the political pressure - made Tele decide to leave him behind.
Click to expand...
What about Socrates' political views ? Socrates was left wing oriented too ?

Its sad that Reinaldo didnt play in the 82 world cup. In the qualifiers and some friendlies leading up to the world cup he looked to be in good form. It would have been good to see him playing alongside Cerezo and Eder at the tournament. A half fit Reinldo would have been better than Serginho.

Why did Santana like Serginho ? . I know he scored a lot of goals for sao paulo but he wasnt technically brilliant. He was aggressive and violent - Santana didnt like these characteristics. Santana hated violent play ?

And what about Eder ? - Eder was a great player but had many problems with his temper in 1981 . How many times was he sent off during this period ?
 
#16 ·
Reinaldo was a lot left wing, supporting guys linked to Cuban regime. Socrates was more keen to the democratic movement, but not to socialism/communism.

Tele didnt like violent players, but had some tolerance for hot heads as long they behaved under his command. Eder was dropped after an incident in a Peru friendly in 1985 for example.

Do you remember when Guardiolla used Ibra to have a physical reference? Tele was worried to have his light/skileld mid shunned aways by a physical defense (for example, Uruguay) and considered Serginho an option because Serginho would combat the defenders. Of course, Ibra is physical, but plays with the ball, not without it for other players coming from behind, but the idea was quite similar.

I do not recall how many reds eder had during that time, but his fame got worst after the Libertadore story.
 
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#17 ·
JCamilo said:
Reinaldo was a lot left wing, supporting guys linked to Cuban regime. Socrates was more keen to the democratic movement, but not to socialism/communism.

Tele didnt like violent players, but had some tolerance for hot heads as long they behaved under his command. Eder was dropped after an incident in a Peru friendly in 1985 for example.

Do you remember when Guardiolla used Ibra to have a physical reference? Tele was worried to have his light/skileld mid shunned aways by a physical defense (for example, Uruguay) and considered Serginho an option because Serginho would combat the defenders. Of course, Ibra is physical, but plays with the ball, not without it for other players coming from behind, but the idea was quite similar.

I do not recall how many reds eder had during that time, but his fame got worst after the Libertadore story.
Click to expand...
How do you mean his fame got worse after the libertadores ? Sorry for any misunderstanding.
I know that santana had problems with Eder in 1977 at Gremio. It seems that Eder had a history of trouble making long before the '81 copa libertadores.

What a left foot !!!
 
#18 ·
After that, the media attacked atletico and his players a lot for losing the temper. Eder waas easily taunted got the fame and most referees already came to the gaames ready to "putt him on his place'.
 
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#19 ·
JCamilo said:
After that, the media attacked atletico and his players a lot for losing the temper. Eder waas easily taunted got the fame and most referees already came to the gaames ready to "putt him on his place'.
Click to expand...
Eder was a great player. Some of his free kicks were amazing. Loved the goal against flamengo in the copa libertadores. He had a very special left foot.
I saw him score a few goals direct from corner kicks. Do you know how many goals he scored from corners ?
 
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