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What is your Analysis Methodology for a Player vs. Player debate?

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Rhizoid

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Let's say, you were going to present the ultimate objective debate, and end it with a conclusion (or many conclusions) about Player X vs. Player Y?

What stats, attributes, facts, would you consider when presenting your figures? Which types of data weigh more, and why? i.e. "Trophies count more..." is typical fanboy talk.

Let's say for the sake of argument the ultimate Maradona vs. Pele debate. Or the never-ending-story of Messi vs. Ronaldo?

Honestly, I want to attempt to do the ultimate Messi vs. Ronaldo debate (as a neutral, and a fanboy of NEITHER of them :D - I want to see what conclusions one could come up with?)

Appreciate your suggestions. :)
 
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#3 ·
ERA
Competition faced
Trophy Cabinet
Personal Awards
Ability/Talent
Whether X player revolutionized his position or a certain aspect of the game.
 
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#5 ·
Depends what you are debating about...if its just your thoughts on who was the better individual between two players for instance, or if it's meant to be encompassing accrued team results involving the player as well etc..

Of course more often than not the player that was involved in the bigger club sides\better league and had more team success will be the better individual player too.But thats not always the case and i tend to lean towards favouring being impressed individually by a player and how they helped who they were playing with(within reason, obviously they'd need to be playing at a respectable level and really performing in bigger european games if they were outwith the top teams and leagues) than just looking at a players trophy cabinet.

For instance there's plenty of midfielders from his era that didn't win nearly as much that i think were better than Clarence Seedorf and i wouldn't back down from that if someone started reeling out his CL wins, because i watched him hundreds of times and rarely saw him really impress or look one of the best midfielders in his team.
 
#6 ·
Abedi said:
For instance there's plenty of midfielders from his era that didn't win nearly as much that i think were better than Clarence Seedorf
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Agree, but max 5 CMF better than him.


Abedi said:
i watched him hundreds of times and rarely saw him really impress or look one of the best midfielders in his team.
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Dont agree

Seedorf 2005-2007 was one of the top 5 central midfielders in the world. He was consistent world class level, same level as Gattuso, Pirlo and Kaka.
 
#7 ·
Abedi said:
Depends what you are debating about...if its just your thoughts on who was the better individual between two players for instance, or if it's meant to be encompassing accrued team results involving the player as well etc..

Of course more often than not the player that was involved in the bigger club sides\better league and had more team success will be the better individual player too.But thats not always the case and i tend to lean towards favouring being impressed individually by a player and how they helped who they were playing with(within reason, obviously they'd need to be playing at a respectable level and really performing in bigger european games if they were outwith the top teams and leagues) than just looking at a players trophy cabinet.

For instance there's plenty of midfielders from his era that didn't win nearly as much that i think were better than Clarence Seedorf and i wouldn't back down from that if someone started reeling out his CL wins, because i watched him hundreds of times and rarely saw him really impress or look one of the best midfielders in his team.
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Seedorf was a solid versatile midfielder but it's not like he was hugely hyped anyway. Among the top 100 players of his generation maybe but hardly more than that.
 
#8 ·
yeah i know he was never considered a potential superstar or anything, but there is that element of fans rating him very high as a CM of the past few decades often because of how many CL\league winning clubs he was a part of etc...

It's probably more the younger generation than those that were already well into teens\twenties by the mid 90s though.

He's a good example to use(or someone like Dejan stankovic) when compared(just as a general example, not directly positionally) to players like Le Tissier, Mostovoi, Balakov or even someone quite hyped at one point like Gazza or whoever that might not have a stacked enough trophy cabinet to back up ability enough to be immediately relevant as staples in a greatest of their era discussion, but who i would hope to most with a decent eye for the game, were pretty obviously far more effective and talented individual players.
 
#9 ·
he was more of a player whose job also was to "gel" the midfield together and do dirty work...more of an allround CM so a bit unfair to compare him to creative players like Mostovoi or Le Tiss who had way more freedom in attack...his game wasn't as entertaining to watch but it was effective. there was a reason why he played at top clubs and those others didn't
 
#10 ·
Various reasons and different player by player, but none to do with inherently superior quality i'd guess.Some players just overachieve in how their career arc goes compared to other better players, not the norm but it still can happen reasonably often, though more when talent was spread around more haphazardly and not with the kind of big club financial dominance we see nowadays.No big deal.

Anyway he's just one example, but one of the better ones i could think of where i wouldn't always rate a player with good ability and a stacked resume ahead of some that didn't achieve as much on a team basis.

btw Mosto was a CM same as Seedorf throughout most of his career.He had more freedom for the second half of his Celta days when the 4-2-3-1 they played resembled the current ones, but mostly he was orchestrating from midfield with all that entails rather than a trequartista type like Totti\Baggio\Bergkamp that were essentially forwards and didn't need to do any defensive work.
 
#11 ·
Dagoods said:
ERA
Competition faced
Trophy Cabinet
Personal Awards
Ability/Talent
Whether X player revolutionized his position or a certain aspect of the game.
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yours are close ... but I would put them in different order:

1- Talent and ability
in his position (most basic requirement of player)

2- Individual awards and track records
(big games to small games with weights for points)

3- Team achievements
(big events to small with weights)

4- Details STATS in big games, vs big teams
(in case of same points)

5- ERA difference
league/Event GPG, his team strength vs others)
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
jamesbh11 said:
yours are close ... but I would put them in different order:

1- Talent and ability
in his position (most basic requirement of player)

2- Individual awards and track records
(big games to small games with weights for points)

3- Team achievements
(big events to small with weights)

4- Details STATS in big games, vs big teams
(in case of same points)

5- ERA difference
league/Event GPG, his team strength vs others)
Click to expand...
Fine but how would you take all of that and create a proper evaluation, and logical assessment and conclusion out of it?

Let's say the great debate (right up there with God's existence :howler: ) - Messi vs. C Ronaldo.

This was one the pretexts for this thread by the way. I want to delve slowly one day in to the stats, numbers etc of these two head to head, and carefully evaluate who wins where.

I know WhoScored.Com has a fair score card system based on everything from distance running, to number of passes, successful passes, intercepted passes, misplaced passes, assists, chance creation, shots etc........

I know this is almost analysis paralysis, but there has to be a black or white answer here. Who is better?

(ok I'm not opening the great debate plz do not derail the thread :D )

My point is how would you tackle this, if you were told to compare the two? :)
 
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#13 ·
Rhizoid said:
Fine but how would you take all of that and create a proper evaluation, and logical assessment and conclusion out of it?

Let's say the great debate (right up there with God's existence :howler: ) - Messi vs. C Ronaldo.

This was one the pretexts for this thread by the way. I want to delve slowly one day in to the stats, numbers etc of these two head to head, and carefully evaluate who wins where.

I know WhoScored.Com has a fair score card system based on everything from distance running, to number of passes, successful passes, intercepted passes, misplaced passes, assists, chance creation, shots etc........

I know this is almost analysis paralysis, but there has to be a black or white answer here. Who is better?

(ok I'm not opening the great debate plz do not derail the thread :D )

My point is how would you tackle this, if you were told to compare the two? :)
Click to expand...
ok based on my own criteria:

1- Talent and ability
Messi > CR7

2- Individual awards and track records
Messi > CR7

3- Team achievements
Messi's Barca >= CR7 (manU+Real)
Messi Argentina > CR7 Portugal

4- Details STATS in big games, vs big teams
Messi had better stats in big games than CR7

5- ERA difference
same
 
#15 ·
Completeness is crucial critierion for me. Also pure technical abilities are very important. (Nowadays football consist basically of running, strength, muscles.) Trophies, records and awards can help to evaluate but it doesn't tell us everything.
 
#16 ·
Rhiz, the best debates are the ones when you accept it's subjective and don't treat it as objective. And do it with humility and with respect for another's opinions.

Debate with focus on the more subjective elements is all the more enjoyable (the intangible elements like flair, panache or elegance). Once you try to quantify and dissect by applying all these parameters and stats it just leads you on a road that has no end.
 
#17 ·
Rodriguez said:
Rhiz, the best debates are the ones when you accept it's subjective and don't treat it as objective. And do it with humility and with respect for another's opinions.

Debate with focus on the more subjective elements is all the more enjoyable (the intangible elements like flair, panache or elegance). Once you try to quantify and dissect by applying all these parameters and stats it just leads you on a road that has no end.
Click to expand...
that's why Rod is the man
 
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