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Angel_Culé

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Some describe football as a short blanket: if you cover your head you leave your feet cold, and viceversa. They mean that there is not such thing as equilibrium. You either attack and leave gaps at the back or you defend and find it difficult to score. Getting the best (or some) of both worlds is the trick to success. At present the team looks pretty solid at the back, but in attack we find it extremely hard to score. Against Real we played this formation:

Bonano
Puyol, Reiziger, De Boer, Cocu
Xavi, Gabri
Mendieta, Riquelme, Motta
Kluivert

With this system the most advanced player should score loads of goals. Three attacking minded midfielders should supply balls to him from almost every area of the pitch. Unfortunately Kluivert is not a goal poacher and never will be. So some goalscoring should be provided by the 5 midfielders that VG puts behind Patrick:

Mendieta used to be a good goalscoring midfielder, but in his current form you can't expect much from him. Motta does quiet a bit of shooting but normally out of target. Riquelme is a "number ten" of the passsing first school. He can get some goals from outside the box in free quicks and shots, but he isn't that good at dribbling "forward" to gain the space to shoot. None of the three players (even PK is average) are good at getting behind the defense making runs. Our two defensive midfielders are not much of an attacking threat either: Xavi prefering to deliver the pass, and Gabri is too much concerned with covering gaps at the back. So, yes, we control the tempo of games because of our 5 midfielders and the passing style VG instills in the team, but then we find it very difficult to create chances, not to mention putting them away. Overmars can be a natural replacement to Motta on the left flank without changing the system: he can penetrate more on his side and also he can get telling passes from midfielders thank to his speed and movement off the ball. In defense he can't do Motta's work, but you got to give in something. To substitute Mendieta I can not think of an ideal option at the moment: Rochemback is a wild player who works hard but does little useful with the ball. Saviola could be used instead, but he is not a winger, and also he can't cover the space Mendieta can. So that would make for a double edge situation that VG doesn't seem fond of. My guess is that Overmars will occuppy the left flank once he is fully fit (if ever) and the rest will remain unchanged, apart from , perhaps, switching Saviola and Riquelme in and out.
 
The code-function still works, I think.
Code:
              Bonano   

Puyol   Reiziger  De Boer   Cocu

          Xavi    Gabri

 Mendieta    Riquelme    Motta

             Kluivert
 
Maybe mendietas swap could be geovanni since he has the pace to attack and at times has shown the skills to take it past the man, but not enough. whether he could supply the killer cross is another question. however this would bring gaps at the back.

This would mean that if Overmars gets his fitness and stays injury free we will have the possibility with geovanni of bringing alot of width.

-------------bonano-----------------------

puyol-----reizeger---de boer----cocu

---------xavi---------gabri---------------

---geovanni--riquelme--overmars

-------------kluivert----------------------


we would not need to change the system but with this we would add much more width to the attack but leave more gaps at the back. with this rocky could instead be moved to back up for gabri aswell. where saviola fits remains a mystery also.

notice we have the same system in place as Irrueta with the same formation and no real wingers (mendieta. motta) and a playmaker like Valeron that doesnt really have to do alot of defensive work. what we miss is a prolific striker which they have in 3 of and instead we have 2 highly skilled strikers (kluivert more so) but not the most reliable finishers.
 
Discussion starter · #7 · (Edited)
mazzah20 said:

notice we have the same system in place as Irrueta with the same formation and no real wingers (mendieta. motta) and a playmaker like Valeron that doesnt really have to do alot of defensive work. what we miss is a prolific striker which they have in 3 of and instead we have 2 highly skilled strikers (kluivert more so) but not the most reliable finishers.
Yes, spot on. We used thys system with Bobby Robson (I think he brought it to Spain), but then our four advanced men where:

Code:
Figo                Giovanni              Luis Enrique

                      Ronaldo
...and we scored more than 100 goals in the league only. I said yesterday that with this system what you need is a goal poacher, and we have the adavantage over irureta's Team that Overmars is a real winger.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
mazzah20 said:
Maybe mendietas swap could be geovanni since he has the pace to attack and at times has shown the skills to take it past the man, but not enough. whether he could supply the killer cross is another question. however this would bring gaps at the back.

I don't think VG considers Geovanni a winger.
 
We got no REAL wingers, and if they are wingers, they are unfit and don't get enough match practice at the moment. The tactic I would like to see is:

-------------------------Bonano/Enke----------------------

----Reiziger------Puyol--------De Boer------Cocu------

-----------Mendi/Geo---Xavi/Rocky---Riq/LE21--------

-----------------------------Kluivert-------------------------

----------------------Saviola----Overmars-----------------

It ain't brilliant, but what can you expect with the squad we've got?

Overmars could move back when he's fit and we need an out and out goalscorer. With Geovanni and Overmars we could have some wing play, which would be great to see.

Puyol and Reiziger could change position depending on the socre or match we are playing in.

Also, Motta could replace LE21 when he is injured and Román could play in Kluivert's position. Maybe Kluivert could take Overmars' spot then, depending on who we play.

If we get a goalscorer like Cissé, Amoroso or Jardel, for example, then the creativity of Mendi/Geo and LE21/Riq could provide those deadly crosses and Xavi's throughballs could help a lot, too.
 
Angel_Culé said:
Yes, spot on. We used thys system with Bobby Robson (I think he brought it to Spain), but then our four advanced men where:

Code:
Figo                Geovanni              Luis Enrique

                      Ronaldo
...and we scored more than 100 goals in the league only. I said yesterday that with this system what you need is a goal poacher, and we have the adavantage over irureta's Team that Overmars is a real winger.
so potentially were onto a winning formation. we just need a finisher which makes me a bit sad since theres so much talent in kluivert. maybe van gaal knows what hes doing (i suppose his success shows that) and if we did really go forward with crespo alot of our responses would be rather different to him.

btw i think were onto a sticky here;)
 
Angel_Culé said:

...and we scored more than 100 goals in the league only. I said yesterday that with this system what you need is a goal poacher, and we have the adavantage over irureta's Team that Overmars is a real winger.
Yes but they have Fran which can control the tempo and play better than Overmars or whoever on the left. Also Victor on the right is superior to whoever Barça has on the right. At the center midfield they are stouter than Barça. However, Barça has a better backline ironically than Depor does (except for Naybet who is imensely superior defensively than De Boer). Actually you guys make a good point in that both teams are very similar except Depor seems to have the better suited players for the system. Barça has a better possesion team but Depor is a better attacking team (especially when Valeron is in the lineup).
 
Angel_Culé said:
I don't think VG considers Geovanni a winger.
i agree but when he has been playing hes been playing further right than say saviola. and i think he played here in the beginning for rexach but that doesnt matter much now.

it also seems a good option aswell off the bench because if he has the confidence he can take it past the defender. i think he played against gava last week and sergio and dani were strikers either half. so i think van gaal might of tried him there. definately an option though with the system
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Juanele1973 said:
Yes but they have Fran which can control the tempo and play better than Overmars or whoever on the left. Also Victor on the right is superior to whoever Barça has on the right. At the center midfield they are stouter than Barça. However, Barça has a better backline ironically than Depor does (except for Naybet who is imensely superior defensively than De Boer). Actually you guys make a good point in that both teams are very similar except Depor seems to have the better suited players for the system. Barça has a better possesion team but Depor is a better attacking team (especially when Valeron is in the lineup).
I know that Fran is a very good player that can control the tempo, and has a much better passing range, and crossing skills, but he is not a winger, nor is Victor. And by that I mean VG has at his disposal a player who can get consistently past defenders, who can be put through with a ball behind defenders. If option A (Fran's of Victor's style doesn't work, Irureta doesn't have option B, and VG does) By the way, when a winger gets past defenders (Joaquin, Vicente, Figo) that is one of the best attacking options you have. On the other hand, when a winger is not beating his man or delivering good crosses then you are playing with one less.
 
this system is very good and can be with us as weve seen with an improvement with our defence. however it relys upon a poacher type of striker which we miss unless we want to play dani, but i cant see him being that man.

however there are ways we could get around this and that might be that with the use of wingers we could use kluiverts heading ability for further purpose.
 
Angel_Culé said:
I know that Fran is a very good player that can control the tempo, and has a much better passing range, and crossing skills, but he is not a winger, nor is Victor. And by that I mean VG has at his disposal a player who can get consistently past defenders, who can be put through with a ball behind defenders. If option A (Fran's of Victor's style doesn't work, Irureta doesn't have option B, and VG does) By the way, when a winger gets past defenders (Joaquin, Vicente, Figo) that is one of the best attacking options you have. On the other hand, when a winger is not beating his man or delivering good crosses then you are playing with one less.
Yes but how many "true" wingers does Barça have? Overmars is about it. However, Overmars can beat his man almost everytime but doesn't know what to do with the ball (he usually cuts inside for a missed shot attempt). If you don't have the players what good is the system? That is why I don't like system coaches like Van Gaal. They rely too much on it and are not flexible.

Perhaps Barça should go more towards a 2 striker system. Only have one defensive mid and put in somebody like Riquelme in behind the two strikers. A 3 man defense will not cut it for Barça, the personel is simply not there. So use a 4 man defensive line. Personally I think it would work better and it would allow Kluivert to play off a main striker which is better suited to his talent.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Juanele1973 said:
Yes but how many "true" wingers does Barça have? Overmars is about it. However, Overmars can beat his man almost everytime but doesn't know what to do with the ball (he usually cuts inside for a missed shot attempt). If you don't have the players what good is the system? That is why I don't like system coaches like Van Gaal. They rely too much on it and are not flexible.

Perhaps Barça should go more towards a 2 striker system. Only have one defensive mid and put in somebody like Riquelme in behind the two strikers. A 3 man defense will not cut it for Barça, the personel is simply not there. So use a 4 man defensive line. Personally I think it would work better and it would allow Kluivert to play off a main striker which is better suited to his talent.
Well, at least they have one, better than none. And as practice shows, you don't necesarely need to play with two wingers, nobody does apart from Betis. You mention a two striker system, but Kluivert has never felt comfortable playing paralell to another striker (remeber his Milan days). And anyway, it is very difficult to place Kluivert in almost any system because he likes playing with his back to the goal, but he is not a consistent goalscorer. Ideally he would suit in a team with midfielders with the ability to score coming from behind. Others think that his best position is playing behind a goalscorer, but I am not sure that he has the same passing ability as when playing with his back to the goal.
 
Angel_Culé said:
Well, at least they have one, better than none. And as practice shows, you don't necesarely need to play with two wingers, nobody does apart from Betis. You mention a two striker system, but Kluivert has never felt comfortable playing paralell to another striker (remeber his Milan days). And anyway, it is very difficult to place Kluivert in almost any system because he likes playing with his back to the goal, but he is not a consistent goalscorer. Ideally he would suit in a team with midfielders with the ability to score coming from behind. Others think that his best position is playing behind a goalscorer, but I am not sure that he has the same passing ability as when playing with his back to the goal.

Well first I wanna start of by saying that Kluivert has not really had any problems with playing alongside another striker. That year in Milan had nothing to to with the system but with the fact the he was imature and had alot of problems outside football. He has played alongside strikers in the NT with succes.

On your other point I think after seeing him play for the NT latley that he´s passing abilities is excellent even when not having his back to the goal. Against Austria for example he just tore them apart by going down to midfield and then gaining speed and with the face to the goal deliever another great pass after another.

It´s just that he has played as a striker most of his career and then you do get accustmed to the passing with the back to the goal and he´s very good at that but his passing overall is excellent as well.

I don´t think it´s that hard to place Kluivert in a system but he doesn´t fin in here IMO. Of course some systems suits him better then others like any player but there he can play upfront but then he needs a goalmachine next to him. He can play behind the striker as a playmaker but that´s Romy´s role. He can even play as a midfielder but for that he needs alot of time to adjust and we don´t have that plus we are already crowded at that positon.

Just my view in the matter!

Take Care!
 
Good points, P_Kluivert. However, Kluivert will never give you more than 15-18 goals per season. He is just not that type of player. In tying this to the topic at hand, I just feel that Barça would be better off if there was another striker to play off of Kluivert. And with Riquelme behind them you would have a "tridente" of sorts (like the failed experiment tried by the Spanish NT, but I still like the idea). With pacy wingers on each side it would be a devasting attack, IMO.

EDIT: btw, P_Kluivert, it's STRENGTH not STRENGHT ;)
 
Juanele1973 said:
Good points, P_Kluivert. However, Kluivert will never give you more than 15-18 goals per season. He is just not that type of player. In tying this to the topic at hand, I just feel that Barça would be better off if there was another striker to play off of Kluivert. And with Riquelme behind them you would have a "tridente" of sorts (like the failed experiment tried by the Spanish NT, but I still like the idea). With pacy wingers on each side it would be a devasting attack, IMO.

EDIT: btw, P_Kluivert, it's STRENGTH not STRENGHT ;)
I agree he won´t give us more goals and if he doesn´t have that striker to play off him he doesn´t fit in here. If he get´s that striker and then have Romy behind them it would work.

Oh Thanx for bringing that to my attention I didn´t realize it becaise it looks similar:)

Take Care buddy!
 
Juanele1973 said:
Good points, P_Kluivert. However, Kluivert will never give you more than 15-18 goals per season. He is just not that type of player. In tying this to the topic at hand, I just feel that Barça would be better off if there was another striker to play off of Kluivert. And with Riquelme behind them you would have a "tridente" of sorts (like the failed experiment tried by the Spanish NT, but I still like the idea). With pacy wingers on each side it would be a devasting attack, IMO.

EDIT: btw, P_Kluivert, it's STRENGTH not STRENGHT ;)
i can see where youre coming from to have a trident. like the failed one of rivaldo, saviola, kluivert last year but we knew that wouldnt work because at times rivaldo was too greedy to help.

however this can only be done by two ways. 3 defenders or one defensive midfielder.

now if we play 3 defenders we will be back to the shaky defence situation, and will overwork the "wingers" with defensive dutys so there would be short comings if overmars was played. definately a great attacking unit but it would be down to the you score 3 we score 4 routine which alot of the time wont work.

if we only play one defensive midfielder we would need him to be a work horse, great passing and good tackling. we dont really have one like vieira or davids so we use a combination of a passer in xavi and a workhorse who is everywhere in cocu or gabri. so if we get a vieira this might be possible. although this might be an option with 4 defenders.


so its hard to get the trident with "wingers" unless we would want to go back to a suspect defence. but attack is barcas style, its brought our success and it is why so many people enjoy watching us play. so going to the 3 man defence may be the best option for this but we may leak to many goals in this.
 
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