[Balamurugan]

This question has bugged me since WC 2002 and have never been able to find a logical explanation for it. So can someone tell me why Bielsa left out Roman in WC 2002?

Personally I think Bielsa was the worst coach that Argentina has seen in a long time. He went for the big names, and he was the sole reason we had one of the worst showing in decades at a WC. I am so glad Pekerman is in, because anyone would be better than Bielsa.

-- A die hard Argentinan fan

 

[Loco]

Yeah, sure. The pre-WC hype about our national team was there because of Bielsa's genius and sweeping style during the qualies.

You're entitled to your opinion about thinking he's been the worse coach where in reality he's been one of the best and at the same time the most unlucky..

Don't forget that it is because of Bielsa that our U-23 team put up arguably the best performance on a football competition winning the gold, something never before accomplished by other Argentinian teams/coaches.

 

[Fangio]

Don't forget that it is because of Bielsa that our U-23 team put up arguably the best performance on a football competition winning the gold, something never before accomplished by other Argentinian teams/coaches.

Yes but that was the Bielsa after 2002, and he did what he never did, just pick the best players around, some may still out, but no doubt Tevez, Andres, Lucho, Mascghe are great, and are not Husains, Lopez, etc...what mainly bothered me about Bielsa was the lack of confidence on skill players, he put the system above all, and that system was based: on pressuring to gain the ball near the rival's area with superiority in number, never thought of an elaborate game, on imposse by skills....only by pain in the ass high speed attitude Piojo Lopez was, and relied on Veron's accuracy.

After 2002, he began to change, but Aimar, Gallardo deserved to be the 10 if he didn't like Roman...not Veron, and Veron could still be an excellent right flank off mid, and Ortega a wild card support striker, but it was all about dinamic, and phiysical presence made by defenders in the mid: Sorin, Zanetti, by dual mids Kily, by just fast wings: Lopez, by a great Toninho Cerezo: Veron, by a man leave to do what he please, but yet too much needing on his irreverence: Ortega.

The system played great among other American teams, but in Euro they just waited to counter, with wide open spaces. The best matches in europe, came no mistery, with finally Aimar in the pitch: Italy and Germany.

I give Bielsa, honesty in his ideas and how he deal with yellow press.
How he manage with the majority of players.
And mostly an attacking attitude, BUT beware on the way, attacking with Zanetti, Kily, Sorin as false 9, speaks loud of not minor fear to risk with a real attacking team like the Ólympics you are mentioning Loco, and more when he played with four men in defense in Copa America (he get the best of Zanetti in years byw), sadly he respected too much Brazil, and we lost attack flair in the finall, even making more to win.

The last Bielsa was very good, still have other ideas, but really an attacking side, based on sacrifice, but above all quality: even the def mid: Lucho-Masche, of course the forwards: Tevez, the wings: Rosales-Delgado, and the playmaker: Andres, if he had that attitude in 2002, at least we will be talking of more than sure a better performance, but shit happens too.

The caprichos, taste in players, will be always in every coach, and will be caprichos just only because WE can prefer another player.
I have never ate the suppose risky attacking mentality, because was in the attitude of being protagonist everywhere, but wasn't in the players to do it.

Me, personally of course I hate the guts when I watched no Gallardo in Passarella's time, no Roman in Bielsa's, but I won't be stupid on thinking that this would bring us the WC, it's just my prefernce on HOW to go and try to get it, may be in 2006, we suck even more than in 2002, is football, everything can happens is just I have more hope in the quality of an Aimar, Roman, etc..than in a man like Piojo Lopez that spent how much? 8 years in the NT?...incredible....Nevertheless I respect Bielsa and the Olympics was the best football I saw last year.

 

[Loco]

I don't buy into your remarks above. Yes, I'll give you that he should have chosen his players better but not someone instead of Veron or Lopez (who at the time was at his prime) but the calling of Caniggia for example.

Bielsa's system worked like a well oiled machine during the road to the WC. Why change it onced in the big dance? Yes, it back fired but not because it was a bad system with bad players. No. It failed because of overconfidence and simply bad luck.

We were in a tough group man! perhaps the toughest. And while the US is still praised for salvaging 4 points in the group stage and barely making it out of (perhaps) the weakest group in the tournament, Argentina (mainly Bielsa) is thought to be the biggest disappointment ever. Why? Bielsa became a victim of his own success (The only reason Argentina came in as favorites -- Bielsa).

Shortly after the WC Bielsa was pressured into dropping his tacttics-- his bread and butter. I'm willing to bet the house that he didn't want to but gave in nontheless and still saw success.

It is my honest opinion that had Bielsa played his 3-3-1-3 in the Olympics, we still would have won the gold medal. The man is a genius but extremely unlucky when it mattered most, like having 4 jackasses watch Adriano take his turnaround shot, being piss scared of giving him a shove or a slight shoulder bump to disrupt his momentum. Pussies.

 

[voka_gsw]

We were in a tough group man! perhaps the toughest.

Sure you were. But Argentina were (and still are) a class above teams you played against in the WC2002. There's no excuses for such failure.

 

[Fangio]

Loco, Piojo Lopez was the hazmerreir of whole Argentina for years, that then Valencia played for him, and only for him, an leave him 40 metres of open space to counter, is another thing.
But when he had to pressure, he reduced his own space, and without skills he comitted some of the most horrendous crosses, dribblings and nonsense I've ever seen...but because he ran, because he was a good a good student he stayed...and btw till last minute, because then Bielsa couldn't support him anymore and ended out of the team in the door of the Cup.
The team was dinamic, was phisically outstanding, players were comitted to the cause, and had a great attitude, but once the cassette didn't respond, they have no variants, and the players involve either.
The only one with that kind of response is one of the most critized, el Burrito. The rest, Veron can't dribble, Crespo either, Lopez no way, Kily just run over rivals, and the other off mids were defenders: Sorin and Zanetti...this was the base of the team, why he waited years to include Aimar? and Gallardo? why not Saviola?, why not Roman?, but above all, because he was so rigid, any of these also can do better, if the system wasn't change.

They could still won the Cup with his way of playing, but watch the games and is all base in number superiority and pressing, six passes is a miracle, and nevertheless even not being the best choices, in order from where were used, and how, still Sorin, Zanetti, Veron, and many high quality players, this out of the question, but look how much better they played in Copa America, with more variants, with less rigid tactics, with more elaboration, with more pause, and it was the same coach, and many of the same players too.
Copa America, and Olympics, only manteined the sacrifice in the recovering of the ball, the way they play were toally opposite, with similar tastics display, but when you change names, smae tactic, isn't same game, as simply as it sound.
Being a River fan, I'm surprise you liked Bielsa proposal, that by the way, wasn't my ideal, but far also from shit, I'm not saying that, but is notorius that when he realized he didn't take advantage of the characteristics of our players before, then change and succeeded...he left the NT.
In WC the group was competitive, but Nigeria wasn't the old 96 Olympic's amazing team, they were out of from, England is always tough, and Sweden a very good intelligent side, but nothing impossible man, of course could be better less competitive rivals, that will provide as usually happens, the time to find the WC team, that many times is different, but wasn't that bad either.

All I'm saying is that above all, I get bored as HELL!!!! watching Argentina, and on the other hand I enjoy a LOT: the copa America and Olympics.
I hope Pekerman makes us play as he did before, but the truth is that is going to be hard, to take the ship in the middle of the storm as he receive it. That Bielsa deserve respect, and not moronic attacks like once defenders of him like Niembro and many journalists, NO DOUBT, that wasn't the worse, not even a single doubt, but results aren't always great display, he lacked of variants always, and he was obsessive with an idea that BTW at some moment EVERYONE knew, and when the players to applied it aren't precisly capable to turn the wheel in the middle of the problem, not much fantasy in them, they had no answers.

If all the time he waited God Knows why, Lopez, Husain, etc, he gave it to Gallardo, Aimar, Roman....and why that obsession with extremos, when was years of the last great Bertoni, Houseman, wings in Argentina????....why always choosing only game breakers as DM, why the rush and pression, instead of possession of the ball as almost every argie team plays.

Let's say he was revolutionary, and let's give that for him, as much as I for instance can like the human being, the honesty, and perseverance of Che Guevara, NEVER in my ****ing life will like a communist goverment, never in my ****ing life will like the argie NT to play like Bielsa wanted, I won't change, and btw I support you when you say that he don't deserve disrecpect, and he hadn't luck, but in many ways if luck could be Piojo lopez being an icon of argie futbol lifting a WC?? no thanx, I pass....but anyway, never existed clearly that chance as was praise.

Finally: you know what is the problem of talking of just tactics? GIVE me names man, give me names , and I will tell you if they can apply that tactic, there is nothing wrong in tactics, and finally wrong is the obsession many times with the not that much said: ESTRATEGY (the one I said in my first post).

 

[Loco]

What I loved about Bielsa is that he rarely gave in to media pressure. He had his 11 in mind and he stuck with them. You sound like you don;t know the simple fact that there's few things harder in the world than being a head coach in Argentina, specially of the national team.

It's sad that the media has had and always will have that much influence on coaches that litterally has them by the balls. They can get anyone fired, change any tactic and get anyone to get a call up in the national team. Not the case with Bielsa. I admire the guy's stubborness. He never gave in to the pressure and built a team from sratch playing his style of futbol and winning games in great fashion. He stuck to the nucleus; to the guys that got him there. Is it so hard to understand that the machine which he built, the towering giants on the field which picked appart the opposition were going to be his first and only choice come the WC? Was there a reason for him to change such successful tactics? Change such a line-up wihich understood eachother like no other? Ofcourse not!

I undertand your infatuation with a 10, a play maker. We hail from the land (and time) of Maradona but you need to undearstand that a team dependible solely on the playmaker is doomed to fail. I can't stand a team that every ball needs to be touched by the '10' or else is no good. I like viriety. I love it when the players mix it up and drive defenses wild forcing them to play every player as if they each are the team's top goal scorer. I love crosses as much as long distance shots as much as 1-2s as much as a play down the middle leaving 3 or 4 defenders in the dust with a top corner shot.That's what I like and Bielsa's team had a lot of that. Endless wing pressure, stiffnecked defensive mids and ambitious-goal hungry defenders with leathal players up front who did not forgive opponents mistakes. It was a great team -- that failed (much like '82 Brasil).

Whether you admit it or not, Bielsa is a genius. He often tried different line-ups with different players (including Riquelme and Aimar I saw them play live!) but he would not put aside his bread and butter. It always worked and those playing for him always showed up and gave it their all.

Get it thru your head man (you're the smartest around these forums for crissakes!) just like it killed Colombia in '94, overconfidence made us shoot ourselves in the foot in '02. not Bielsa's tactics nor his players.

 

[ampersand]

what i find strange is marcelo gallardo never getting a single minute when he was one of the bread and butter players of the bielsa era.
btw, scolari admitted to basically copying bielsa's system for brazil in the wc and with great results of course, although that team did not play the kind of futebol their names would have us expect. but i guess winning is the only thing that matters...

 

[KnoccOut]

cuz he's a fooool........ veron was supposed to lead the team to victory ... thats the biggest joke

sorry to the veron fans

i dont like him though

 

[Fangio]

What I loved about Bielsa is that he rarely gave in to media pressure

Me too Loco, and I said it, and is one of the million reasons I hate the guts Niembro and all that circus, remember that chat about TV?...I know he had bad luck, but even I can't proove, I was the only voice of disaproval between all my friends, when I told them we weren't playing that well, that with this system with Euro boys we won't bother them. Is not only playmakers I will list what I never like for his Pre WC, as I said I had lots of things great after rthat Cup, I felt proud of my team since long time in Copa America, and Olympics, I make a bisagra between this eras of his coaching. The first was even with another strategy and tactic, a continuation of Passarella's one, that speaks well, speacially in Argentina where the one that come after, destroys what the first one made, but there were things to change, specially that poor symbol I take with of Piojo Lopez, but he is, not his fault.

More than only a playmaker lover (man that sounded bad, jejejje), is a lve for quality players, I need them even in def roles, to know how TO PLAY.

Knocc, Veron is one the best players out there, and then he was, just that what he brought to the argie team in his way of playmaking is not the best for me, but Veron as right off mid?? man you can count with your hand players of his calibre and personality.


I will resume it Loco, even winning the WC, that I will party fr 100 hundred years, nor Argentina 90, nor Bielsa 02, reprent what I want of our NT, that is the thing, and I get in no few fights because of that. The two champs we have, are the examples of what I want, and the dream will be the Youth of 79, just perfect football that I hope some day we play it with the Senior, but Ramones and Dieguitos no salen todos los días, ni siqueira fenomenos como el Pichi Escudero, ESE ERA UN WING!!!!!, what a player that dworf....

But the thing is that not even liking his proposal, and being accurate that some overconfidence and add bad form also (they were physically destroy (and not minor detail of the imporatnce that have this aspect in the team, with no 120% from the players chosen can't make the dif throw a technic they haven't)).
Bielsa WAS/IS consecuent with his ideas, he choose appropiatte players to his ideas, at least in the worse cases (Lopez) for some of their tasks, he tried to mechanize to avoid mistakes,a nd that was his biggest mistake, because even mistakes can provide, a lesson he must learn. But again he was consecuent, loyal, no medis bullshit, even funny in his way, FOR CHRIST SAKE HE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT FOOTBALL!!! that was great, and when I was likeing his proposal, when the failures make him rearm his act, an dwith courage he made it, when he didn't want Carlkitos, but the dude gain his place..he give it to him, but to take it with responsabilty, he never sold out with demagogia al pedo. I admire the dude, and I was near to say I will love to chat with him, but mostly I have to listen, cause he is passionate with the game, and seems a great man..but again what the team made, even winning, destroying the eliminatories, never was what i pretend to see, I want to enjoy my NT, and I suffer it till 2002, I can spaek only fom where I can, from my tastes, fom my view, which is no holly true, and never has many influent of what media, friends tell me, sad for me I tend to always walk on the other side of the road, I'm too much stubborn..no wonder I like many thibngs of Marcelo as a person jejejje.

Nyway a hope Jose don't destroy many of the great solidarity, team work Bielsa solidificate and add a more elaborate game, more based on names than constant similar tactic or estrategy, in the middle of both he can find the best of our team, and BTW is ****ing football, we can end even worse than in 2002...

 

[Fangio]

I will propose to stop arguing about him, he has his highs and lows, he deserves respect...anyway we can discuss the actuall aspects of what we have now, what we can put from Bielsa's time, but not using them (jose and marcelo), I mean:

I prefer Montoto as right mid..becuse he give me....and I will use primarly this tactic....because....

In order to continue will be better and we take the best example of Marcelo, WE TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL, the overrated, the loosers, the this and that shit, let's just try o keep it OUT of our forum, let's meke a difference, and not less important if someone sayd I want Piojo Lopez as wing, I will eat my stupidity and at least will tell the reasons why I don't like him, is an effort WE ALL must try, if not, let's just close this thread and move one, and speak of this in others, but Bielsa deserve to be respected and in the way, I do not what a probably begining fights between us or anyone that falls here, ok?

 

[Assassin]

In the latest world cup we missed 14 chances against Sweden let alone those against Nigeria and England. Though he has some mistakes of not playing with two forwords when we were down 1-0 to the brits but still we played the most crazy attacking football under his management. The timing of the last WC was also the worst time fot Argentina, France, Portugal and Italy and the best for Brazil. Ronaldo was just getting back from an injury, Rivaldo have not played a single match one monthe before the cup, Ronnie is so fecking talented plus he was playing with PSG in the French league where the hectic of competing is so much lower than other leagues in Europe plus their group in the WC was simply the biggest joke between other groups with China, Costarica and Turkey. So many reasons for our failure in the last WC but on the top was BAD LUCK.

 

[Loco]

Whatever. Any fool can tell you that Lopez, Veron, SImeone and a handful of others who got the call to represent the country in the WC are now washed-up but boy did they ever fit the system and brought down results when they had their chance and were (arguably) at their prime.

Who in their right mind would not have taken the most dominant midfielder in Itally at the time in Veron? It is evident that he was not 100% fit but is it Bielsa's fault when Juan Seba assured him that he was good to go? No.

Those of you who don't think Veron dedserved a sopt in the team have no clue about the sport and I suggest you stick to playing with marbles.

Fangio, I've told you numerous times that my ideal formation is a simple 4-4-2 with speed at the wingback -- Zanetti on the right and (River Plate's) Sorin on the left. WIth the midfield set up as a diamond. A strong defensive mid two agile- multitasking wingers, a smart playmaker with two leathal forwards.

Yes, I too ,long for the day that Aimar can be paired up with this year's Riquelme. Aimar is far more flexible and can play either wide to the right or left or even as a support striker. I too want to see Cavenaghi and Saviola but that's not happening any time soon. Lucho Gonzalez and Mascherano are untouchable but I would like to see a change in our back line. I'd love to see Milito given the chance to conquer the coveted spot.

PS - A change in the GK spot is due! Pato, take a hike you inconsistant piece of garbage...

 

[Purger]

cuz he's a fooool........ veron was supposed to lead the team to victory ... thats the biggest joke

i dont like him

I agree 100%.

 

[Fangio]

Me too, but if Aimar and Roman are not well, I want Andres, Lucho or similar calibre in the bench, that is my always demand, I'm FUNDAMENTALIST only in this, depth, and if the def guys steal a ball:they must know to pass it after, and WHEN!! and WHERE!!.

That is why I love Lucho and Masche..and I hate Husain, Last Cholo (even he is the best breaker in the world, and as you said it suited Bielsa's team intention, and idea)..btw great team yours...

Nevertheless Loco, we can bear Sorin in the mid, and Zanetti, because still great players and years make them improve there, not the best idea anyaway, but we need to continue trying to play in amore elaborate game, also sometimes counter, sometimes dormir un poco el juego to launch in a sec at full speed, we have at this moment no player in a Kempes, Redondo, Batistuta, Maradona, moment in europe; but we have tons of skills young and middle age players and some great oldies, is a great moment, not much hype around (though we are in 2nd place for FIFA???), but you may see we don't from any selection, better this way, Roman had the best half seaon in Spain and is back, Pablito just need for once no moron coaches, and the rest are rebirthing, better thsi way near the WC, para llegar a punto caramelo..btw, I'm a pain in the as with Messi, but this kid if he has the great Sudamericano I expect I take him like Ronaldo in 94, and Ortega, at least he MUST feell a WC, he can be huge, he is dif I hope he don't end in a Borghi...

Anyway let's be prepare to some Jose caprichos too, even putting names above evrything, there can be (I hope not) some Duschers, etc..(the only one I won't complain is Scaloni, I love his attitude and blod,a nd with him he plays great and old Scaloni, not a star, not brilliant, but great locker room and 110% player, but only him, and as sub). Also some squme he must try to make it base, as players, because is too dman much variants, is not the best to pass from black..to white...is a danger in there...

PD: yousee is the old good Roman? I told you, you where right in the strictly performances aspect, but weren't sawing the causes of that bad performances and that Aimares, Romanes, don't forget how to play in a night...Verones too, only his age,a nd lack of from will take him out, but still will like to have him as sub, between him and let's say a Solari in a descision of last moment, well seba has more caps, and sooo much to win and recover, he m8ight be as long ago hunger, and he is class and accept that is time for AImr, Roman and even Andres, he won't carry problems,I love hearing Seba talking about football, I regeret his role descisions and late transfers...

 

[voka_gsw]

What I loved about Bielsa is that he rarely gave in to media pressure. He had his 11 in mind and he stuck with them.

And Bielsa being that stubborn led to Argentina downfall. He stuck with idiots and you, the fans, were made to pay, seeing your team lose against weaker opponents.

 

[Dies Irae]

This thread made me all nostalgic.. Here's a class picture I'll never forget..

 

[Fangio]

esa foto es buenisima.jajajja, was an internet joke? or was even the cover of a paper?