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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After the latest soap opera that was the Milan derby, this question more than any other demands a concrete answer and it will be interesting to make a vote out of it here in XT and reach a concensus once and for all who should be held sole captive for the disgrace that has engulfed calcio over the last 48 hours.

- The Italian culture of tolerating, fearing even, ultra groups that simply have too much power, granted to them willingly by the country through powerless, timid police and security forces?
- The FIGC and all other relevant Italian football authorities for continuing to allow flares, firecrackers, smoke bombs and the like into stadiums after all that has happened before them?
- The ultras themselves for not having a brain and sheer disregard for social respect?
- The clubs, for consistently failing to dissociate themselves from the gangsters but instead hold hands and fuel their egos with privileged treatment?
or
- The various sports Gazzettas for (deliberately or otherwise) shaping the Italian footballing community over the years into a unfairly demanding, unforgiving public?

Someone should make this a poll.
 

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Great Outdoors said:
After the latest soap opera that was the Milan derby, this question more than any other demands a concrete answer and it will be interesting to make a vote out of it here in XT and reach a concensus once and for all who should be held sole captive for the disgrace that has engulfed calcio over the last 48 hours.

- The Italian culture of tolerating, fearing even, ultra groups that simply have too much power, granted to them willingly by the country through powerless, timid police and security forces?
- The FIGC and all other relevant Italian football authorities for continuing to allow flares, firecrackers, smoke bombs and the like into stadiums after all that has happened before them?
- The ultras themselves for not having a brain and sheer disregard for social respect?
or
- The various sports Gazzettas for (deliberately or otherwise) shaping the Italian footballing community over the years into a unfairly demanding, unforgiving public?

Someone should make this a poll.
The underlying responsibility should always be on those actually commiting the crimes.

However, the responsibility also falls on the public at large - they need to be more vocal and demand that civil authorities and team owners are accountable for providing the safety law-abiding citizens deserve. This can only happen when enough people find the balls to speak out against these disturbed, loud minority.

That is all.
 

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Italian football authorities for not coming down on those thugs you call 'Ultras' and for not having a set of regulations similiar to England that keep the players and the fans safe. If the neccessary people don't react and call for change then i can only see a repeat of the awful scenes seen a few days ago.
 

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Pila said:
The underlying responsibility should always be on those actually commiting the crimes.

However, the responsibility also falls on the public at large - they need to be more vocal and demand that civil authorities and team owners are accountable for providing the safety law-abiding citizens deserve. This can only happen when enough people find the balls to speak out against these disturbed, loud minority.

That is all.
Holy crap, I agree with Pila:eekani: :pp I would add that the public should also demand that the clubs take some responsability as well.
 

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Everyone have their part of responsability, but the club owners and political authorities have the biggest one. If they don't want to fight against that, they can't do anything.

Even in XT, I see many people supporting the ultras, because they sing, they do nice tifos and all that stuff... at the end of the day, the ultras will always finish doing something like 2 days ago.

Every country has ultras, but there are some places where it seems that tolerance is bigger. The amount of ultras in the Italian stadiums is huge and I can't understand it, because the image that they give is awful and the average Italian should see that this is a shame for their country.

In Spain, the problem with the ultras is not that big and it depends on the clubs, but it's also a shame. I think that only Barça and Villarreal have really done something against them and it has worked.

IMO, a football stadium should be a place to go with your family. I would never take a kid to watch a match of Lazio, for example. When they play there, it seems a hole of Nazis, sometimes I even think that the club itself promotes the ideology.

In the past, even some Barça fans were threatened in the Camp Nou for the damn Boixos Nois. This is unacceptable and I'm really happy to see how Laporta has reduced the group to the minimum expression. Also Villarreal is an example of the fight against the ultras.

After what happened on Tuesday, if Moretti doesn't finish with the ultra group that provoked the suspension, I would understand that he agrees with this kind of actions. He must choose between a San Siro full of Inter fans of any age and ideology or a San Siro full of damn ultras.

I was ashamed 2 years ago when something similar happened in the Camp Nou in a match against Madrid and I'm happy to see how the social mass has forced the club to finish with the ultras. I really hope that the facts that happened in Milan and Roma (Lazio-Livorno) wake the Italian minds up. They must finish with it soon or only nazi skins and red-skins will go to watch football to the stadiums.
 

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barça said:
Holy crap, I agree with Pila:eekani: :pp
It's bout time you sober up.:pp
 

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Koeman4 said:
IMO, a football stadium should be a place to go with your family. I would never take a kid to watch a match of Lazio, for example. When they play there, it seems a hole of Nazis, sometimes I even think that the club itself promotes the ideology.
That is utter nonsense. lazio as a club does no such thing as to promote fascism or nazi-sympathies, that is a completely false statement (and this is coming from someone who cheer their every loss as if there's no tomorrow).

Yes, there are some idiots among them, more than among other tifoserie even. Yes, they are more vocal in expressing their shameful political views, but it's still "only" in the curva. To say the rest of the thousands of people in the ground every other week shares their sympathies, or that the current manegement promotes these outbursts of civil disobedience is grossely unfair.

That said, I do believe their curva to be a big collection of complete retards, more or less, and the demonstration of ignorance between the two camps last sunday (lazio's ultra group IRR waving nazi flags, and the livornesi promoting Stalin as a hero) some 60 years after what these two camps did to Europe is truly scary. But, I must defend the broader public of laziali here, even if I, as stated, hope their società completes a remarkable fall from grace and end up degraded from serie A in a few weeks time.
 

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Of course the authorities have some blame. But they main fault is of the guy who leaves his home, to go to a stadium to make such stupid remarks and make so many stupid things as chucking flames into the pitch.

Put him jail for some 5 years and I'd like to see if such a pricck would have the courage to do such things!
 

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Cacìni said:
That is utter nonsense. lazio as a club does no such thing as to promote fascism or nazi-sympathies, that is a completely false statement (and this is coming from someone who cheer their every loss as if there's no tomorrow).

Yes, there are some idiots among them, more than among other tifoserie even. Yes, they are more vocal in expressing their shameful political views, but it's still "only" in the curva. To say the rest of the thousands of people in the ground every other week shares their sympathies, or that the current manegement promotes these outbursts of civil disobedience is grossely unfair.

That said, I do believe their curva to be a big collection of complete retards, more or less, and the demonstration of ignorance between the two camps last sunday (lazio's ultra group IRR waving nazi flags, and the livornesi promoting Stalin as a hero) some 60 years after what these two camps did to Europe is truly scary. But, I must defend the broader public of laziali here, even if I, as stated, hope their società completes a remarkable fall from grace and end up degraded from serie A in a few weeks time.

True, the rest of the stadium was whistling against their ultras, shouting "buffoni, buffoni". So to compare all laziali in l'Olimpico with the retards of IR is ignorant at its best.

However I still think Lotito makes it a bit easy for himself by saying it is not the responsibilty of the club.
 

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Cacìni said:
That is utter nonsense. lazio as a club does no such thing as to promote fascism or nazi-sympathies, that is a completely false statement (and this is coming from someone who cheer their every loss as if there's no tomorrow).

Yes, there are some idiots among them, more than among other tifoserie even. Yes, they are more vocal in expressing their shameful political views, but it's still "only" in the curva. To say the rest of the thousands of people in the ground every other week shares their sympathies, or that the current manegement promotes these outbursts of civil disobedience is grossely unfair.

That said, I do believe their curva to be a big collection of complete retards, more or less, and the demonstration of ignorance between the two camps last sunday (lazio's ultra group IRR waving nazi flags, and the livornesi promoting Stalin as a hero) some 60 years after what these two camps did to Europe is truly scary. But, I must defend the broader public of laziali here, even if I, as stated, hope their società completes a remarkable fall from grace and end up degraded from serie A in a few weeks time.
Sorry. I didn't want to say that. On the other hand, I think that the club allows them to be in the stadium and they don't do anything to finish with them. I'm sure that they're just a minority among the laziali!!! The problem is that there are clubs too tolerant with the ultras and I think that the owners of Lazio don't move a finger to finish with them. They're a shame for your club, they give a wrong image of your club and they don't do anything to finish with that.

When you really want to finish with the ultras, you can do it in few time. Barça is a prove of that. We had one of the goal stands full of damn ultras and they are just a group of 50 people now. The club indentified the ones that committed violent actions, the club finished with their privileges (they had a room to keep the banners, flags, etc., funds for the trips,...), the club controlled them and treated them as they are: shameful nazis. It's too easy to enter with a swastika in the Olimpico and you see many of them too often. Part of the Lazio ultras are part of Hammerskin, as Ultrassur. These people are not true laziali. They're nazis that use your club to spread their dirty propaganda. The club should not allow them to step your stadium.

Anyway, I don't want to point Lazio. It was just the first example that came to my mind and maybe I'm unfair. Many European clubs from any country have similar problems (Real Madrid, PSG, Atlético, Betis, many Greeks, many Turkish, many Serbians,....).

The problem is that there is too much tolerance with the ultras. Many people defend them and say that they're "true fans" just because they scream louder. That's bullshit. I don't care about tifos or chants. The ultras are JUST criminals that use football as an excuse to use violence and hatred.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Koeman4 said:
When you really want to finish with the ultras, you can do it in few time..The club indentified the ones that committed violent actions, the club finished with their privileges (they had a room to keep the banners, flags, etc., funds for the trips,...), the club controlled them and treated them as they are: shameful nazis.
I think this is primarily what clubs in Italy are mostly guilty of. Italian clubs simply give too much respect, for reasons unknown to fans living outside of the country, to ultras, so much so that these hooligans actually start to think that they're above the law and abuse the recognition that the club has indirectly given them as "hardcore fans of the club". The phrase "fan power" has never been more appropriately represented. Anyone remembers Roma-Lazio last season? An ultra virtually took a casual stroll down the pitch (unharassed) and talked Totti into abandoning the derby. Where else on earth could this senario have possibly been allowed to happen?

The most recent example of the unhealthy relationship between club and gangster would be the recent Lazio-Livorno fiasco, revisited by Roberto Gotta (soccernet correspondent) who duely summarised the state of the above. He writes, "Livorno fans, leaving Rome after that mess of a game at Lazio last Sunday, pulled the emergency brake on their train because - their words - 'we did not want to leave four (other reports have five) of our friends behind after they had been apprehended by the police'; who immediately arrived on the scene to restore order, and trouble duly erupted.

This led to six arrests and 248 Livorno fans reported for assault. How did they get back home, then? Livorno centre-forward Cristiano Lucarelli paid for three coaches to bring them back to the Tuscan city, no questions - allegedly - asked. Then you wonder why some fans - not only in Livorno, of course - find it so easy to get away with it, and resort to the age-old tactic of blaming the police for any trouble, mixing up the cause with the effect."

Summed it all up aptly, I feel. The onus is on the club to publicly dissociate themselves from these hooligans, dismiss them as anti-social organisations and put a firm foot down on officially distancing the club from these bastards instead of constantly trying to feed their egos and behave as if the club is dependant on them for support and filling the stadium.
 

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blame the ultras, **** MILAN
 

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Cacìni said:
That is utter nonsense. lazio as a club does no such thing as to promote fascism or nazi-sympathies, that is a completely false statement (and this is coming from someone who cheer their every loss as if there's no tomorrow).
They don't promote it. But they don't do anything, or at best not much, to eliminate it.

The ultra documentary that details the every day of the Lazio ultras (I forget the name right now) even shows players having to go out and talk to these idiots to try and calmed them down.

The same thing was done by Gaspart:yuck: at Barcelona, he "traded" season tickets with the ultras for "peace" :rolleyes: and Madrid even let their ultras give an award to Fernando Redondo, in the field, during one of his returns to the club.

The clubs shy away from any responsability with these ultras and they should do the opposite. Clubs should fight them at every turn.
 

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Koeman4 said:
They're a shame for your club, they give a wrong image of your club and they don't do anything to finish with that.
Just to clarify once more, they are not my club, I support Roma and I have no love lost for those farmers from out of town.

But fair is fair. :)
 

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barça said:
They don't promote it. But they don't do anything, or at best not much, to eliminate it.

The ultra documentary that details the every day of the Lazio ultras (I forget the name right now) even shows players having to go out and talk to these idiots to try and calmed them down.
I haven't seen this documentary, but I do believe this was from the time when Sergio Cragnotti was still the president, no? If so, you are absolutely correct, as he did most certainly do nothing at all to remove IRR from the games, nor their messages. In fact, he even helped by paying for their work, which resulted in racist banners in the derby ("Team of níggers, curva of hebrews").

Without knowing, of course, the intigrate workings of new president Lotito, I can't believe he's doing the same mistake all over, even if I wouldn't swear on it.
 

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Great Outdoors said:
I think this is primarily what clubs in Italy are mostly guilty of. Italian clubs simply give too much respect, for reasons unknown to fans living outside of the country, to ultras, so much so that these hooligans actually start to think that they're above the law and abuse the recognition that the club has indirectly given them as "hardcore fans of the club".

The most recent example would include the recent Lazio-Livorno fiasco, revisited by Roberto Gotta (soccernet correspondent) which duely summarised the state of the above. He writes, "Livorno fans, leaving Rome after that mess of a game at Lazio last Sunday, pulled the emergency brake on their train because - their words - 'we did not want to leave four (other reports have five) of our friends behind after they had been apprehended by the police'; who immediately arrived on the scene to restore order, and trouble duly erupted.

This led to six arrests and 248 Livorno fans reported for assault. How did they get back home, then? Livorno centre-forward Cristiano Lucarelli paid for three coaches to bring them back to the Tuscan city, no questions - allegedly - asked. Then you wonder why some fans - not only in Livorno, of course - find it so easy to get away with it, and resort to the age-old tactic of blaming the police for any trouble, mixing up the cause with the effect."

Summed it all up aptly, I feel. The onus is on the club to dissociate themselves from these hooligans, cast them as anti-social organisations and put a firm foot down on distancing themselves from the the ultras.
That's it. Many clubs finance the ultras. This is not unknown, at least in Spain. Here everyone know that the ultrassur were financed and protected by Sanz and Mendoza. The Boixos Nois have been Nuñez & Gaspart's army in Barcelona against critical journalists and fans. The famous and colorful Frente Atlético still has the protection of the Gil family... From where do they take so much money for trips, tickets, tifos, banners, etc. I recall that the bosses of the Spanish ultra groups didn't have a job, they lived with the money of these groups.

If they're animals, they should be treated as animals. I don't care if they sing like Pavarotti or if their flags are nice. They must be out.

Today, I've read some interistas defending their "curva" because they "live for Inter" and things like that. He even said that he was noone compared with the ultras. C'mon... if you really love your club, you won't ever do anything against the club. Now, Inter will be fined and their stadium will be closed. I even heard that UEFA may exclude them from Europe next season. Is that love for Inter?

I don't think that any Boixo love Barça more than I do. The ultras just care about themselves, not about the clubs. Period.
 

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Cacìni said:
Just to clarify once more, they are not my club, I support Roma and I have no love lost for those farmers from out of town.

But fair is fair. :)
Sorry.. :pp Well, I guess that you got my point anyway. As I've said, it's unfair to point Lazio or Inter. Roma or Barça have their bullshit too. It's not about this or that club. The ultras must disappear.
 

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Koeman4 said:
Sorry.. :pp Well, I guess that you got my point anyway. As I've said, it's unfair to point Lazio or Inter. Roma or Barça have their bullshit too. It's not about this or that club. The ultras must disappear.
Of course, Roma has shit to not be proud over, just like most clubs. There are people in our curva I despise, truly. They're nothing but profiteers, just like you described about the capo of a group having his income all from the club. I hate these people, because they destroy so much for the rest of us, for the entire club.

But! I do not, as strange as it may seem, agree with this branding of ultras, like they're all the same. I have friends who are ultras in Roma's Curva Sud, who go there every week, and follow them around Italy and Europe every time. However, they go on their own, they aren't ganged up with dimwits like in Boys Roma (a big and popular group, far rightwing), they're just a bunch of friends who hang out together and love la Roma. They sing, wave flags, take part in coreogrophies and the making of banners, but that's it. They don't threathen our players, they don't try to promote their political beliefs via Roma. I've been there with them many times, hell I've been treated to spongecake in the heart of Curva Sud...hardly the vicious animals like the others we speak of, the ones who are in organized groups (not saying all organized groups are bad either) and have severe links with organized crime -- Digos now claims Base Autonoma, a reeeaaally hardcore crime unit in Rome has inflitrated some of the far right wing groups. Anyway, I shan't digress...my point is this; even if we apperantly share the same contempt for a lot of these people who cares about themselves first, second and third and Roma maybe fourth, I won't agree that all ultras are scum and animals, because I know it not to be this way.
 
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