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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hopefully an FM can make a poll out of this :) :)

1. Improved 2 steps then went back 1 step since 2001

2. Improved 2 steps then went back 3 steps since 2001

3. Improved 2 steps and still staying there as we were unlucky this season.

4. Improved 2 steps till last season and improve one more step for this season

5. We went back 2 steps since Ged took over

6. We initially went back 2 steps but improve 1 step

7. We initially went back 2 steps but improve 3 steps.

8. We were stagnant, its our opponents who were doing the steps.
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The steps are just illustrations to simplify things.

Would help in our discussion if you were to state the key events and moments which defind those steps and the reasons for them.

e.g signing of Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann, or missing out on the CL.
 

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Hi Mindy..

Well I don't think progress can be measured in that way.. at least not for a football club.. as it would be too general if u ask me :)

I'd say the improvements under GH were:
1. Some great signings (Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann, Kewell, Sinama, ALT, Dudek and Riise when he's awake!)

2. Fixing up our goal keeping issues.. well at least for 2.5 seasons :D comparing the David James days to the Westerveld and Dudek days is a crime :)

3. Getting us back into the CL..

Of course.. at the same time, there were things that moved us in the wrong direction:

1. Not being able to handle a quite easy group in the CL and getting dumped early on

2. Never recovering as a team from that previous point

3. Handling the players as if they were a bunch of kids (eg. Dudek, Fowler, Litmanen)

4. The style of football we play which took a nose dive after the Treble season

5. I remember him saying 'we're closing in on Man U' around the treble season.. well I think it's fair to say Man U & Arsenal have changed gear and over lapped us by now

If u look at the above.. the improvements are mainly till 2002 (the season after the treble where we got to the CL QF).. the set backs are mainly after that.. that's just to go with my point that I think he should have left after his heart illness in 2002..

My 2c
 

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There is only ONE, only ONE progress you made since Houlier took the job.

With Liverpool being such a prestigious club, they hadn't won trophies at all, they needed succes in whatever form.

When Houlier took over he gave you three trophies. You got some respect back.

However after earning respect, mysteriously, you became an 'also rans' club. Many including myself thought for certain you would win the domestic league after the treble season. Inexplicably, you came fifth..FIFTH! Not even Roy Evans was that bad. After all this, after you got your respect back, it was taken away in the worst way possible. What's worse is that you may outdo yourselves this year.

Remember the year you finished 7th?

I hear bells ringing
 
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Over the course of Ged's time in charge, we took an initial step backwards(finishing 7th), then went 3 steps forward(good signings, Treble, CL), but have since gone 2 steps backwards(Boring football, missing CL last year). We are now back were we started, and if we miss CL this year we will have taken another step backwards.
 

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you stepped forwards just enough to give you hope and give the bug-eyed toad credibility as a good manager,these steps though were bad in the long term as it has kept him in a job for much longer than his talent deserves.

you would have been better off if he had just gone backwards immediately and carried on going backwards til his head was kicked out of the club.
 

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Lizardhous pretty much summed it up.

Yasir, agree with you on 99.9%. the o.1% is i wouldn't give him that much credit for replacing James. C'mon, if it were me, you or even Razor (who thinks anybody who's in the club should be left untouchable there for lifetime) who would took over after Evans, that person would've brought a new goalie. The question is only who would be that goalie, and it would solely depend on two things - money available and personal choice. GH wasn't the most money deprived manager in the world and bringing in Friedel and later Westerweld don't merit him out of this world purchase award. James had to go period! And he replaced him with pretty average GKs. Almost impossible to imagine that anybody else would've brought lesser goalies.

Ditto for Babb and Kvarme. Our friend Evans screwed up in defense big time! :D So, doesn't take a genius to realise that those two had to go too. Although HERE i would give credit to gh for signing Hyypia and Henchoz. Well done. And overall shored up our defense. BUT THAT"S it! and at what a price?! he screwed up our the most potent attack! Repercassions of which are felt to these days!

Doc, even if we do get a CL spot, still 4th place is a step backwards for a gaffer who took over when we were 3rd and who promised to deliver the title, don't you think?

MINUSES of gh is that since '98 we are falling further behind MU and Arse - qualitywise, tablepositionwise and gameplaywise.
 

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zico said:
GH wasn't the most money deprived manager in the world and bringing in Friedel and later Westerweld don't merit him out of this world purchase award.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Friedel wasn't signed by Houllier.:)
 

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zico said:
Yasir, agree with you on 99.9%.

Ditto for Babb and Kvarme. Our friend Evans screwed up in defense big time! :D So, doesn't take a genius to realise that those two had to go too. Although HERE i would give credit to gh for signing Hyypia and Henchoz. Well done. And overall shored up our defense. BUT THAT"S it! and at what a price?! he screwed up our the most potent attack! Repercassions of which are felt to these days!
Zico, we seem to be agreeing a lot these days :D Must be the weather :tongue:

But I do disagree with the above.. we actually had the meanest defence in the EPL and one of the meanest in Europe in the Treble season and even better in the year before that.. that was when we were playing far more convincing football than the after-Treble seasons.. when our style became as boring as watching a game of golf played at night!..

Actually, I think the defence went backwards in that period due to two reasons:

1. Henchoz' injuries..
2. Our style mainly put more pressure on the defence and GK holding and hoping for an opportunity used by Owen and co.. the defence handled the extra pressure rather well at first.. but started to crack.. and lost their normal composure when Dudek started fumbling..
 
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Main problems with our defense have been:

1) Didi and Henchoz being injured so often
2) Hyypia's awful form
3) Houllier's insistance on playing Biscan and Traore on a frequent basis when better players are available.
 

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zico said:
GH wasn't the most money deprived manager in the world and bringing in Friedel and later Westerweld don't merit him out of this world purchase award. James had to go period! And he replaced him with pretty average GKs. Almost impossible to imagine that anybody else would've brought lesser goalies.
I thought Westerveld was one class keeper...
 

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Firenze said:
I thought Westerveld was one class keeper...
I liked Sander a lot.. not world class.. but certainly a good GK.. His main problem was (to me) his handling of corners.. the fluke vs Bolton was as I said, a fluke.. (just ask Ian Walker :D)..
 

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calling Sander a class keeper is a stretch. an ok gk, but that's about it. c'mon, guys, get real. you might call Dudek and Kirks class, but not sander. or if you call him class whos no class in EPL then? Everybody's class then (apart from Walker? :) )


Yasir, i didn't quite get what we disagree upon? My understanding is i said we had a good defense and your say not just good but the meanest in Europe? :confused:

in that case, yep, disagreed. To me the best defense is the one that lets the rest of team do their job on the field. Like Milan's late 80's - 90's, Juve's mid90's, Parma's... Arsenal had a good defense... even MU's ! The reason they won their treble was that Schmeichel and the back 4 allowed the rest of the team freedom of movement up front, freedomm to create... while ours looked good only when evrybody was sweating in our own half, when Heskey was playing between H&H and Owen in a position of holding midfielder. And still we had to rely on luck, dumb refereeing, unbelievableOUTof_this_world Henry/Kluivert/Totti misses, etc. to survive. Even then in some games like vs Roma at Anfield we looked like schoolboys holding on to their lives against men. Meanest in Europe??? Not even when having 10 in defense instead of 4. Much better than the Evans D, but not even close to be the best.

Our defense never looked formidable unless we played 10 men at the back. Name me a game (i was still taping a lot in those days) where you think our back 4 let the rest of the guys do their job without looking back.

...weather is changing, Yasir... honeymoon is over... :D
 

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zico said:
BUT THAT"S it! and at what a price?! he screwed up our the most potent attack! Repercassions of which are felt to these days!
Sorry for not being too specific (People at work say I'm too accurate and I have to work on it! ;)).. The above is what I disagree with.. we both agree we had a tough defence.. but my argument is that the toughest we were at the back was before our style became boring and negative (after the Treble season).. for two seasons, we were exciting, attacking and had a defensive unit that was excellent..
 

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zico said:
Name me a game (i was still taping a lot in those days) where you think our back 4 let the rest of the guys do their job without looking back.
Liverpool 4 Arsenal 0 (Henchoz nullified Henry.. the whole unit was superb.. and gave our midfield (Gerrard, Hamann, Barmby and co.) and the attack (I think it was Fowler and someone) enough space to create havoc up the field)

Liverpool 2 Man U 0 (the Fowler and Gerrard goals won us the match.. but I'd say it was our defence that contained the United attack.. one of our better performances as a team)

and err.. Stoke 0 Liverpool 8 :tongue: (just kidding) :D
 

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zico said:
calling Sander a class keeper is a stretch. an ok gk, but that's about it. c'mon, guys, get real. you might call Dudek and Kirks class, but not sander. or if you call him class whos no class in EPL then? Everybody's class then (apart from Walker)
It's funny you all think Walker is crap.

Sander Westerveld is class. I think what he achieved with Real Sociedad speaks for itself if you had taken the time out to see his performances in La Liga last season, you would see that Liverpool let go of a prized 'keeper.

The only reason he didn't play consistantly for Liverpool is because of the manager. We all know Houlier has bad man-management skills. Dudek reported it himself when he made an error against Man Utd:

"Houlier said to me 'you know what happened to Westerveld' in front of all the players in the dressing room".

I guess this is the type of thing Westerveld suffered from which is why he couldn't put in a performance week in week out. If Houlier continues managing the same will eventually happen to Kirkland (if he wasn't already sold), I'd put money on that.
 
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Firenze said:
It's funny you all think Walker is crap.

Sander Westerveld is class. I think what he achieved with Real Sociedad speaks for itself if you had taken the time out to see his performances in La Liga last season, you would see that Liverpool let go of a prized 'keeper.

The only reason he didn't play consistantly for Liverpool is because of the manager. We all know Houlier has bad man-management skills. Dudek reported it himself when he made an error against Man Utd:

"Houlier said to me 'you know what happened to Westerveld' in front of all the players in the dressing room".

I guess this is the type of thing Westerveld suffered from which is why he couldn't put in a performance week in week out. If Houlier continues managing the same will eventually happen to Kirkland (if he wasn't already sold), I'd put money on that.
1. Westerveld has been crap this season though. Dudek is far better.

2. Houllier is a wanker
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think Westerveld is a good keeper but he is one of those players who will do much better in a smaller club of lower expectations.

But then again, not even Dudek can handle the pressures (from the manager) of being a LFC keeper.

But Dudek is one of the most committed performer in our team and a class act.
 

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Yasir, I think i have both of those games, so I'll check them out. But I know that to say we played exciting would be a stretch. At best we might've looked exciting compared to the crap of the last 2 seasons, but not really that exciting. But i'll doublecheck before further arguing.

Firenze, to be honest I only watch Sociedad when they play Madrid, and maybe i did not see enough of Westerweld but i doubt i'll ever change my mind about him. The way i define class - Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Toldo, Zoff, Shilton... I don't think you can mention Sander in this company, dudek though will come close.

And Walker used to be a super keeper 10 years ago. One of the most talented in the country. But mentally he's very frigile (my impression) and what we see now is the result of it. the guy totally lost it.
 

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zico said:
Yasir, I think i have both of those games, so I'll check them out. But I know that to say we played exciting would be a stretch. At best we might've looked exciting compared to the crap of the last 2 seasons, but not really that exciting. But i'll doublecheck before further arguing.
But exciting (or REALLY exciting) isn't our point of debate.. is it? :) It was to name a game where our defence played superbly such that it allowed the other lines to do their jobs.. and I totally think those games were good example.. the midfield were able to control the match and create chances.. Attackers created space for themselves and scored.. and the defence shut the other team out (and those are not Boltons or Wolves' either)
 

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zico said:
Firenze, to be honest I only watch Sociedad when they play Madrid, and maybe i did not see enough of Westerweld but i doubt i'll ever change my mind about him. The way i define class - Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Toldo, Zoff, Shilton... I don't think you can mention Sander in this company, dudek though will come close.
Funnily enough I can understand where you're coming from, I still think Westerveld is class though! Funny game football....

I'd say Westerveld might not be in that league of players. I'm not saying he's world's best, but he's not far behind. Similar to Dudek.

Make no mistake, his performances last season would have got him ' European goalkeeper of the season award' if such a thing existed. :D
 
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