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Discussion Starter #1
At the same time last year the league table looked like this:


---------------------------2003/2004--------
----------------O----G--B--M--A---Y---P---Av
1.Fenerbahçe----24--16--6--2--55--27--54--28
2.Beşiktaş------24--15--6--3--48--26--51--22
3.Trabzonspor---24--14--5--5--39--27--47--12
4.Denizlispor---24--13--3--8--38--27--42--11


And this current league table:

---------------------------2004/2005--------
1.Fenerbahçe----24--20--2--2--63--12--62--51
2.Galatasaray---24--18--3--3--46--14--57--32
3.Trabzonspor---24--17--4--3--50--20--55--30
4.Beşiktaş------24--13--6--5--50--29--45--21

So what has changed?

*Fener has won 20 games compared to 16 last year.

*Fener has scored 63 goals compared to 55 last year.

*Fener has lost as many games as last year.

* Fener has conceeded 12 goals compared to 27 last year.

* Fener has 8 more points (Turkish record) than last year.


All stats are showing that Fener has improved in all levels. We are having a record season.....but how often do you hear this?

What we hear is that Fener doesnt play good....i really dont get how a team who has scored 62 goals in 24 games doesnt play good.

Our defense has conceeded 12 goals in 24 games....that is 0.5 goal/game. But do you ever hear any praising of our defense. On the contrary.....our media bashes Servet, Luciano, Deniz, Önder and Ümit Özat.

Fenerbahce is having it's best season ever....or should i say best era in 30 years and we hear nothing but bad things about Fener....i honestly have never herad so much dissing in my 28 years.

And instead of thanking the person who has made this possible, yes our beloved coach Christoph Daum, they are tearing him down. There is no coach in the entire world who get this much criticism from the media.

Sometimes i wonder if being the leader is the same as being at the bottom of the league.......have the criterias for winning the championship changed?
 

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We should just wait till the end of this season. Picture will be brighter and everyone will easily see it, even if they dont want.
 

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The picture is already there, but some choose to look away instead of look at it...

Also, isn't it ironic that all of the top 3 teams all have higher points than last seasons leader at the same stage...!?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I love it when Doberman says (after every game) that the Fenerbahce fans dont enjoy the games.....

First of all.....how the heck does he know what i feel.....or Jemster or Lionkiller or anyone else....?

Have you ever felt more confident when Fenerbahce plays in SSS.....or when it's the 75th minute of the game and the score is still 0-0?

I dont know about you guys but im really enjoying the way we are playing.....for the first time i can enjoy my whiskey when watching Fener!

Am i always enjoying when Fener plays, of course not! There are times when i wish player X and player Y did this and that and that Daum should do A instead of B.But most of the time....let's say 8 out of 10 games im really happy about the way we are playing.....especially these last games against Malatya and Gencler. Because in these games you can see a huge improvement in our passing percentage and our attack rarely starts with a long pass anymore!

But our honourable sportsmedia consists of people who doesnt know football.......that's why they dont get into analyses like this.....it's easier to just critisize.

The reason why im bringing this up is because that lately the criticism towards Fener has increased enormously.....!´I thought it wasnt possible to get more critisized than we already were but i was totally wrong.

It started with false allegations about tesfik primi....a typical "camur at izi kalsin".....because that was exactly what GS and bjk fans needed to use against us in case we win the league this year.

Im 100% sure that non-Fener fans will say we won thanks to Aziz Yildirim and his "money".....and that is enough to take away the happiness of winning the championship.

Like this week....the ref in our game gave a cheap penalty....although some say it's a clear penalty. But i wouldnt have complained if we hadnt gotten it.

And there is the incident with Aurelio....where he should have gotten a red card.

Considering this was the first time this season Fener was handed a cheap penalty and that Fener for the first time (this season) got away with a red card.....they (media + non-Fener fans) blows it ouf proportion. Like this has never happened before in the league this season.

We all know Besiktas so i wont get into that.....but look at GS....Ayhan and Orhan should have been handed red cards.....in their previous games....but it was forgotten the day after maraton. Tomas spat towards the linesman....he got away. Song tried to injure Veysel....didnt get a red card during the game....but is now suspended for two games. Necati pusghes away the ref and takes the bottle from his hand.....red card no doubt....he only gets a yellow....stupidly he gets himself another yellow for diving.

This is not mentioned anymore.....it's all gone....but our incidents are still very current.

But íf the refs are protecting us why did Bülent Demirlek hand us a red card against Malatyaspor when it was still 0-0?

Or why did Cem Deda give us a red card against Gencler when the score was 2-2 and only minutes left to the final whistle....?
 

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These refs may think that Fener will play better with ten man ??? :pp
 

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Thats a pretty solid showing that Fenerbahce is improving over last year.

Ofcourse someone will probably just try to point out that it only means the TSL is worse :rollani:
To them I say, if the league is so bad, how come your team is not in front by 5 points?
 

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We're just too good :D
 

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I think a lot of people do base their judgements on the European stage too, Fenerbahce had a couple of good games vs in my opinion a great Lyon team but besides that even vs Manchester minus a lot of starters, they were not convincing. They really should have done better at least a couple more rounds into the weaker Uefa Cup, shit even Genclerbirligi overcame many obstacles and you cannot blame experience because a lot of teams ther don't have experience. People will always downplay Fenerbahce's achievements this year solely based on the performance in Europe and that's no lie. I'm sorry but Zaragoza, I still don't see them as a tough opponent at all but Daums tactics in Super lig is different from what he did vs them in the Uefa Cup. Also Fenerbahce did not fare well against Besiktas, Trabzon and Galatasaray yet another reason, Daum seems afraid in important games and this costs him. I don't see many people in here that supported PVH that much meanwhile thousands and thousands of fans have opened up a website writing letters to him hoping he'll stay. So the opinions here differ from a lot of opinions the Fenerbahce fans in Turkiye have.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Selcuk, with all do respect....what the hell are you talking about?

1. How many derbies did Daum lose last season.....?

2. Is it that wrong to lose against your biggest rivals in away games....or are those games usually money in the bank?

3. How can you judge Daum's derby performance when he has two derbies left to play in SSS?

4. If he wins those derbies will you say he is not afraid of important games?

5. Trabzon hasnt beaten Fener with Daum in charege.....that is 3 wins in thre games.....or is it me that is confused?

6. Daum's derby stats:

GS: 1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss
Bjk: 1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss
TS: 3 wins

5 wins, 2 draws and 2 losses

7. With those stats in your hand how the hell can you say that he is afraid of teams like GS, Bjk and TS?


Selcuk, honestly man.....you are being worse than the Turkish media....
 

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I'm talking about this year and this year only, how many derby and important games has he won this year? Look at what Austria Wien is doing in Zaragoza, they didn't come out to defend and win 1-0. 11th minute and it's already 2-0 for Austria and in Spain. Fenerbahce had the chance to just destroy this team 4-0 or 5-0. I'm sorry but Daum fukked up ad even Aziz Yildirim knows it, but yes he is going to stick by him but what happened to sticking by him after the second loss at Zaragoza? They did not even look at each other on the plane ride home. Bro as great as Fenerbahce is all their achievements are always gonna seem like nothing in everyone elses eyes because of these things. You are a Fenerbahce fan and of course you see things a little differently after all it is your club. Look at me I love Eskisehir and even though we're like 6 points away from the leaders I still think we will be champions and we play good meanwhile it's not going to happen but a fan is always a fan. I dunno man last year Fenerbahce was playing a far more exciting game and I hated missing the Fenerbahce games. This year although higher scoring the games are kind of dull. DO you have the stats in which how many goals were scored off corners and penalties from thi syear compared to last?, I was just wondering. I wanna see someting.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I really dont know what to say.....i have shown stats.....but it doesnt matter!

You lot are so easily affected by the media that you even believe crap news like Aziz Yildirim wasnt looking at Daum on the airplane....are you for real man?

When you wrote that made it clear to me Selcuk that you have been influenced by the media about your opinon on Daum. I think you are watching too much Doberman and Sansal.....or Hincal Uluc who constantly bash Daum.

Any foreigner with no knowledge of Turkish football would find daum's stats to be excellent.....but in Türkiye the criterias for being successful have changed!

Anyone thinking that Fener games are dull especially with players like Alex, PVH, Nobre, Aurelio, Tuncay and anelka must be either making an 1st of april joke or he/she should start watching curling....:D.....you had it coming selcuk....:D
 

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I dunno maybe my idea of a fun game is different, see I don't care what the media says. I watch every single game and I noticed a lot of goals have been from corners and penalties. Now tell me is it more exciting to see PVH curl one into the top corner or Alex putting away a penalty? Last year there was probably more scoring with the run of play as opposed to set pieces. This is why I wanted to see the stats, I may be wrong, I may be right. I mean Daum likes to play the wing system with no wingers (sounds like the redbull commercial I know :D) see hen Fenerbahce plays in Europe it's not just for Fenerbahce, they play for Turkiye and for fans like myself and it's a bigger let down to me than it is to you. I don't care if Fenerbahce, Galatasaray, Besiktas or Trabzon wins the league because none are my team. But when you go to Europe yes you are my team and yes it does piss me off more, and all this not starting PVH bullshit during the CL was more bullshit too. This is why I started questioning Daum.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
But how fair is it to critisize Daum on his first campaign in europe with Fenerbahce....especially with a young team like this?

Why are Fener expected to do wonders so fast.....and how come everyone has forgotten that fener didnt even play in europe last season!

How can you expect sucess from a team which that hasnt played regular european cup football.....?

This team was created 1.5 years after a disaster season.....look where Fener is now after 1.5 years.....if i had dreamt it then i would never have believed it!

So if anyone is trying to say that this Fener isnt playing good football......then you better be comparing us with Barca or Chelsea.....because this team is easily the best team in Türkiye and plays by far the most attractive fooball in Türkiye.

And about your stats:

Fener has scored 8 goals from penalties and believe it or not Alex scores as much freekicks as PVH.....;)

Even if we have scopred more penalties than last season we have still scored 55 goals (63-8) in a "normal" way....which is still more trhan last year.

And i dont get how goals coming from corners and freekicks are less valuable than other goals.....is it a new rule?

Still, i dont get how you cant see the importance to be able to score from set pieces, because there is only few teams (GS, Bjk and TS) that dares to play attack football against Fener. Other teams play with a 11 man defense.....to be able to score against teams like this you have to be very good at set pieces. That's why Fener score 4-5 goals once we score the first......because we forcethem to open up.


But nooooo....Daum sucks! :D

GS was bashed for not being good at set pieces.....Fner gets bashed because we are good at it....nice logic! :D

p.s. got to go and sleep now....haydi iyi geceler :)
 

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hee hee iyi geceler, oh and about the goals it's not about value but entertainment for me. Like I said before you probably can watch Fenerbahce in Superlig games winning by 3 penalties or corners see I can't, I need creative plays and passing and once in a while blasts and little chips. So far I can only see Alex, Tuncay and PVH getting those. Anelka has not caught my eye as much as PVH did when he arrived at Fenerbahce. Just look at his celebrations when he used to score.
 

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Stats can be misleading. Its true Fener are doing better this season but everybody is saying how the Trukish Super league is getting worser and worser every season, and if you consider that Fener have a better team this season with players like Alex and Anelka, Rustu it is natural that they are playing better than next season.

Last year I remember you conceded a lot of goals because of your keeper, Recep, he made a lot of mistakes, and that German keep let alone conceded 3 goals in 1 game. Rustu was a bit rusty but now he is playing excellent.

The reason Fener have scored more is because of Alex, the guy has scored 19 goals and made over ten assists, and if you also consider that you didnt have Nobre in the first half of last season you can get the idea of why they are scoring more goals this season. Football wise Fener haven't imporved greatly but they are playing better than last season, and if they improve steadily they can be successfull in europe in few seasons (But I dont trust Daum is mind is elsewhere I think) The reason

Fener has collected more points this season is bvecasue of Alex, because this guy gained you guys a lot of points single handedly, the Gencer games for example.

but they it is still good stats, very good stats I think
 

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Cengo said:
But how fair is it to critisize Daum on his first campaign in europe with Fenerbahce....especially with a young team like this?
Thats the most important point to me. It's not like Fener has been plazing year after year in Europe and continuing to fail. Sure they\ve had campaigns in the past, but this club was essentially 'reset' after the 2002/2003 season. Except for Tuncay, Umit and Serhat, nobody of significance was around before last year. Yet the club is COMPETITIVE in everything they play in already. Give it time - GS needed a few years to get to a point where they one the UEFA cup, even Lyon used to be in the sam position as Fener is this year. But by keeping the team together and building up experience, now the club is a possible favorite to win the CL and their coach is highly regarded. Give it time...
Perhaps some of the 7-0 and 6-0 ;) wins this year have spoiled many into thinking that Fener should play that way every game.
What would be the point of the season if Fener weren't challenged every so often? Then most would just try to point out how weak the Turkish league is or how Fener got a lucky draw in Europe.
Theres just no pleasing some people... :rollani:
 

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Then explain teh success of Gencerbirligi and some of the smaller teams from Turkiye in the Uefa Cup and such. Forget experience these players are not 10-14 years old, they should always be prepared, they are "PROFESSIONALS". There's no excuse Fenerbahce should have done much better against teh weak Zaragoza team, I can understand Manchester United or Lyon but Zaragoza there's no excuse. Anyways we'll see how it all plays out towards the end of the season.
 

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Ok so in summary fener is the same as last season in terms of qulaity and success due to the same position in the league, being semi-finalist in the cup and gettink knocked out of europe?....
Dats wat it looks lyk. Also i think the urge to play anelka stuffd d whole sytem, hes an awesome player but we playd WAYYYYYYYY betta wit nobre lonely forward wt alex behind....
 
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