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Discussion Starter #1
ok before people jump on me, i dont want robben dropped so read on.

we have no style of football is the point i want to make. ok we played 6 games with robben where he was our best player, but that was in a 4-4-2. and now that we play a 4-3-3 with 3 strikers robben is probably one of our worst players.

though to be fair it has only been 2 games with him not performing well.

the reason i bring this up is because when im watching us win every week i dont see us playing a particular style now. we're trying to incorporate so much in to the game. some players (gago and diarra) want to play possesion football. others (higuain, raul and the other midfielder) want to play quick passes towards teh goal. Huntelaar wants to hold up the ball. robben wants to run at defences. marcelo wants to make crosses and cut in.

whats happening? its a mish mash of randomness. and i want to know how you guys see it and what reasons you might have for it.

is Ramos trying to simply play the best players at the same time. are the players not disciplined enough to play to a game plan. are they not good enough to say play possession football.

one obvious thing ive noticed is other than gago and diarra our other players have extremely poor ball control (that is not including defence because ramos and pepe are excellent). yeah even higuain at times showing his youth.

some players make up for this. for example raul's scoring touch is back to its best. robben's mazey runs are something we lack. higuains footballing ability is excellent and his movement is pretty classy. etc.

all in all we are trying to accomadate wingers, play possession football,q quick passing, long balls...just because certain players are in form. or maybe im jumping the gun or maybe Ramos simply wants results as he knows he isnt staying beyond june.

whatever it is its very confusing and ugly to watch, clearly reflecting on the football we're putting out there. the culmination in all this came against liverpool a clearly superior side technically than us where we tried dipped into a hat to pick something to throw at them and nothing worked.

PS. dont tell me "10 game winning streak and you're still complaining" im not complaining as much as iam analysing.
 

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I think that we're just trying to give Hunter some time to settle, but we can't drop Raul and Gonzalo.
Leaving us to play the front 3.
I think 4-4-2 will be great for us when we get a right-footed winger, Krasic or Ribery imo.
VDV, Guti, Sneijder, Parejo.. these guys don't have a position in our team.
Get Granero back as a sub for Gago.
I think Juande, apart from experimenting, is tactically very very good.
 

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without!

individualist players always ruin the team. that's a fact

think about it in the other player's perspective. lets say higuain and robben are leading a counter attack. higuain runs half the field waiting for a pass only to see robben selfishly try to pass every defender on his way and eventually losing the ball. just how pissed off would higuain be in this occasion? the next time he might not make that run at all! why get tired for nothing? or when he gets the ball he may not pass it. if robben can be an individualist, so can everyone! (and if you've noticed, higuain has become somewhat selfish in the last games)

i never liked robinho that much (mainly for non footballing reasons) but he's like 10 classes above robben
 

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Discussion Starter #5
changed the title of the thread because i dont actually want robben benched, thats absurd, but more about our style of play.
 

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what i don't get since 4 or 5 years is exactly that. it seems that we are technically and tactically weaker than many teams fighting for the last 16 in cl. last year at the same time i saw the game porto-schalke. both teams looked a class better than our team in that sence. the reason cannot be our players. nobody can tell me players like arbeloa, benayoun, kuyt, riera or players of the teams mentioned are technically better than ours. our players seem to need longer to control the ball and it seems that their passing-ability has nothing to do with that of a team that is even fighting for the knockout-stages. i have the feeling since last wednesday that we can buy who we want and the player will be much worse in that sences than he was at his club before. the problem is that i only played a few years football as a child. so i miss the experience to even imagine how something like this can happen. the impression i have seems to me completely out of logic. because for me it began with the galacticos. even with figo, beckham, carlos, zidane and ronaldo it looked exactly like that. except of zidane all seemed to have lost every technical ability and even with a completely new team i see exactly the same symptomes. since that our moving is shit, our passing is shit our ball-control is shit, every player keeps the ball longer than a second division team and so on. and that with completely different players.
that cannot be, but my brain is giving me that impression. please tell me what you think about this "irrational bullshit"....
by the way: if robben is again throwing away attacks of us like in the first leg, then we should suspend him a month that he has the time to think about what he did.
 

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We've won 10 games in a row with 8 clean sheets, of course there is always room for improvement but it isn't easy going away from home at the weekend after a tough CL match in midweek. I am not worried about the formation or the performance of the team, it will improve in the coming weeks. I have full trust in Juande.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
what i don't get since 4 or 5 years is exactly that. it seems that we are technically and tactically weaker than many teams fighting for the last 16 in cl. last year at the same time i saw the game porto-schalke. both teams looked a class better than our team in that sence. the reason cannot be our players. nobody can tell me players like arbeloa, benayoun, kuyt, riera or players of the teams mentioned are technically better than ours. our players seem to need longer to control the ball and it seems that their passing-ability has nothing to do with that of a team that is even fighting for the knockout-stages. i have the feeling since last wednesday that we can buy who we want and the player will be much worse in that sences than he was at his club before. the problem is that i only played a few years football as a child. so i miss the experience to even imagine how something like this can happen. the impression i have seems to me completely out of logic. because for me it began with the galacticos. even with figo, beckham, carlos, zidane and ronaldo it looked exactly like that. except of zidane all seemed to have lost every technical ability and even with a completely new team i see exactly the same symptomes. since that our moving is shit, our passing is shit our ball-control is shit, every player keeps the ball longer than a second division team and so on. and that with completely different players.
that cannot be, but my brain is giving me that impression. please tell me what you think about this "irrational bullshit"....
by the way: if robben is again throwing away attacks of us like in the first leg, then we should suspend him a month that he has the time to think about what he did.
thats exactly at what i was trying to get at. its not something recent, its always been like this (in recent times). i find it so weird.
 

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I totally support this thread. It's always the same... "Things will improve, they need time lalala..."

Something has to change soon.

edit: LOL @ bashing Robben for his perfomance against Liverpool. If it wasn't for him we would have kept passing the ball vertically around. :howler:
 

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We've won 10 games in a row with 8 clean sheets, of course there is always room for improvement but it isn't easy going away from home at the weekend after a tough CL match in midweek. I am not worried about the formation or the performance of the team, it will improve in the coming weeks. I have full trust in Juande.
That says more about the quality of the opposition than any discernable greatness on your part. Sure, it's a great statistic but like statisticians always say to confound, is it really a telling statistic? 10 wins against struggling, beleaguered, at times outright awful teams who are financially destitute and can't afford to paper over the cracks of poor football with quality individual signings is as much a sign of strength as beating on your kid brother.

Real Madrid is 11 individuals relying on at least two or three of them to have a good game to score goals, a plan that works against tactically inept and rubbish opposition in the league, but the last 16 of the CL is an entirely different matter. As you've been finding out for the last 5 years.
 

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What formation we have doesn't really address the question "What are we playing?" To my mind, RM is doing what many teams with skilled players do, you just let the players play. Punt the ball around (the players are good enough to do this without practice) and then wait til someone breaks down the defense somewhere.

Now note that I don't mean that there is no game plan when the teams takes the pitch, what it means is that generally, the coach is allowing individual skills to create the opportunities rather than tactical flow. This works regardless of what the formational framework is.

To bring about tactical flow is very difficult and requires time (and don't forget cooperative players). Which is why I really thought that Ramos' Sevilla side was a thing of beauty.

I think Ramos is now building towards tactical play but it's hard to do since it requires a lot of teamwork. Players need to move into space and hold formations, not because it's how they see the play developing but simply because it's what the coach said. That's hard to instill in a short period.

If Ramos though gets the chance to work with the team for an extended period (or any coach for that matter), I think you'll see more tactical nuance come out. The only true tactical nuance we've seen in recent times came courtesy of Capello but Capello gave simple orders (i.e. choke all space in the middle) and always tried to turn games into a contest of will rather than skill.
 

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I think we've been playing simply for survival, and although it may have come too late, I think the results are quite satisfactory considering the point we came from.
And yes, I'm afraid that, if Robben doesn't make up his mind to play for the team instead of for himself, he will be mercilessly, but deservedly, dropped out of the staring eleven.

With Marcelo on the left we look more like what we should look like next year or whenever we finally get over the Clownderón ruinous legacy. We have many more different ways to attack, Raúl and Higu -and Guti- can participate much more in the game and this is all for the good of the team.
 

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That says more about the quality of the opposition than any discernable greatness on your part. Sure, it's a great statistic but like statisticians always say to confound, is it really a telling statistic? 10 wins against struggling, beleaguered, at times outright awful teams who are financially destitute and can't afford to paper over the cracks of poor football with quality individual signings is as much a sign of strength as beating on your kid brother.
Blah...

10 wins = 10 wins.

You can only beat what is in front of you, no? When Barca destroy La Liga the rest of Europe is sitting on their balls - but they're beating the same teams Madrid are, no?

Real Madrid is 11 individuals relying on at least two or three of them to have a good game to score goals, a plan that works against tactically inept and rubbish opposition in the league, but the last 16 of the CL is an entirely different matter. As you've been finding out for the last 5 years.
More drivel, we've had our fair share of problems in the last five years, but currently we're a good team that is going place with room for improvement.
 

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What formation we have doesn't really address the question "What are we playing?" To my mind, RM is doing what many teams with skilled players do, you just let the players play. Punt the ball around (the players are good enough to do this without practice) and then wait til someone breaks down the defense somewhere.

Now note that I don't mean that there is no game plan when the teams takes the pitch, what it means is that generally, the coach is allowing individual skills to create the opportunities rather than tactical flow. This works regardless of what the formational framework is.

To bring about tactical flow is very difficult and requires time (and don't forget cooperative players). Which is why I really thought that Ramos' Sevilla side was a thing of beauty.

I think Ramos is now building towards tactical play but it's hard to do since it requires a lot of teamwork. Players need to move into space and hold formations, not because it's how they see the play developing but simply because it's what the coach said. That's hard to instill in a short period.

If Ramos though gets the chance to work with the team for an extended period (or any coach for that matter), I think you'll see more tactical nuance come out. The only true tactical nuance we've seen in recent times came courtesy of Capello but Capello gave simple orders (i.e. choke all space in the middle) and always tried to turn games into a contest of will rather than skill.
you are exactly right:thumbsup:, we need 1 coach that goes for more than 3 seasons so the players get stability, and although learning through different coaches is good, but 7 coaches in 4 seasons is alot
 

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and for the second time, I for one am for keeping Ramos beyond this season, regardless of CL outcome.

I believe in him, and with 1 or 2 key players in summer transfer, he will do wonders with us
 

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and for the second time, I for one am for keeping Ramos beyond this season, regardless of CL outcome.

I believe in him, and with 1 or 2 key players in summer transfer, he will do wonders with us
The only question here really is whether Perez likes Ramos. Ramos brings good football and seems to be fostering good harmony so the only thing left for him to do is make sure he gets along with whoever is boss.
 

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Blah...

10 wins = 10 wins.

You can only beat what is in front of you, no? When Barca destroy La Liga the rest of Europe is sitting on their balls - but they're beating the same teams Madrid are, no?
Since you've not even come close to grasping the point, I don't think a prolonged explanation would do you any good, but I'll take a shot in the dark and just say, drawing sound statistical inferences requires that your sample be representative. 10 consecutive teams of poor standing and quality is not a representative sample, at best it's a domestically sound sample, as winning a league requires beating crap domestic sides, so you'd be correct to infer that you're still in with a chance at the title, which you are. Past that, your record means nothing against quality opposition.


More drivel, we've had our fair share of problems in the last five years, but currently we're a good team that is going place with room for improvement.
Now that is drivel. The evidence clearly points to a severe deficiency against the best Champions League opposition. 1 year could be chance, 2 in a row probably, 3 maybe, 5 definitely not. Add to that that your domestic form has made no difference whatsoever in Europe, you've been winning titles and still been embarassed, losing titles and still going out, then you've clearly got more than chance and circumstance at work here.

I offer a theory, you offer superficial drivel. Even if I've discerned the problem incorrectly, the facts support a deeper and more institutional reason for your European blushes. The only way you can improve is by accepting that, first and foremost.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
no answers after the Atletico game then. just a few more questions.

diarra at RB when there was a healthy CB and a healthy RB sitting on the bench?

and the Robben question, the most important question at the moment. what to do with Robben?
 

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The Robben question.

He is selfish there is no question about that but he is a player that can win a game on his own. In the first half against Atletico he showed no awareness at all when running with the ball. Just all about him and running towards the goal looking for glory. In the second half though there were a few little signs that he was realising that football is a team game and he put a few good passes through to his team mates.

He must be getting told by the management to become more aware of his team mates around him as it is too obvious that it is a great failing in his game. He may improve a little but this is Robben's game. He has always been individualistic and he will not change totally. It is too late.

Another point about him is when he receives the ball deep on the wing he is very predictable in his play. He will always run at the defender and then go on the inside. He never goes on the outside. He does sometimes go on the outside when he is further up the wing but his play is becoming on the whole a bit easy to read and will only get easier to deal with unless he varies his play a bit.

Saying all this Robben should not really be dropped. He can give a spark to a team that hardly any of the Madrid offensive line can.
 

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and the Robben question, the most important question at the moment. what to do with Robben?
C'moon man, you can't just sit on the bench the best winger of this world. Ramos must teach him not to be selfish, but sadly it seems that almost mission impposible, but still, he must trying.
 
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