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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
With Nader entering the election race I asked myself a question, something that is very actual in Belgium (and Holland and France) to with the coming elections. I asked myself whether it is wise to vote strategically. With that I mean to vote for a party that doesn't really present your idea of how the society should be regulated, but on the other hand comes close to that idea and will be more influential than the party that you actually believe in. On one hand it's positive because you could help to get a governement that is in general of your idea (left in my case). On the other hand it would not be left enough and you will vote for something that is not really your idea.

More concrete in the USA a quite some people voted Nader in last elections. Although quite some scientific studies deny it, this is believed to have devided the left side and costed those few votes the Democrats needed to keep Bush out of the White House. What should you do. Vote Democrats to fight "a bigger evil" or be pure and vote for you idea knowing this could mean the exact opposite?

Two comments:
(1) don't see this as a left-right discussion. The same could
happen for the right side

(2) I know this topic leans close (although it shouldn't be the same) so if you FM's see the need to merge (or be in another way creative ;)) with it, be my guest :)
 

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well, i don't know if i got the meaning of the thread. but for example for the last presidential election in france, never i would vote for chirac, but regarding at the dangerous guy who faced him in the last run, i did.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I meant more the 1e round in France. The left there was incrediblky devided. Would you have voted PS of Josip who are more oriented to the centre or would you vote Greens or Communists which are more "pure" but who also took away votes from Jospin which resulted in not him but Le Pen being in the second round.
 

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geert, i have been disappointed by the laxism of jospin politics. so i didn't vote for him but for another left mouvement.
but as many french never i would imagine that the situation was that worrying!!! even the specialists, the analystes were surprised!
next election, i will be vigilant.
 

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well, that is the prob, how to change the things without take a little of risk?
i think the medias must take their responsabilities, and report what is the exact situation. i think also there is too much difference between the "moyens" the parties put in their campaign.
 

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If there are two clear opposites, I can certainly see myself voting strategically. But when I look at the policital scene in Holland the reality is that there is not all that much difference between the various parties. And if there is, the effect will be nullified when they form a coalition government.

What does seem to become more popular is protest voting. The average voter is pretty much fed up with the political establishment, so when there is an outsider as candidate they're likely to vote for him, both as a sign of protest and with the actual hope such a candidate makes it into power.
 

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Are you saying you're giong to vote Spa-Spirit next election gOD?

I am actually thinking about voting Groen! just to give them some support. The opportunism of some of the major Green politicians makes me wonder. And keeping in mind that many others are about to join Spa or Spirit aswel...

ADRIAAN
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Discussion Starter #9
The day I vote for a party where Stevaert :yuck: is involved with is the day hell freezes over. You can say that you are left/progressive 100 times aday, but that doesn't mean you are.

I'm 100% sure to vote Groen! now, but i'm pretty sure in the elections of 2006 they will no longer exist, it will be along Spa and as said I'll never vote for them. It will be moste likely be PVDA (Pila wait for that day: then for once you'll be right to call me a commie :tongue: ) or someone from the ACW-part of CD&V (that will be a sad day too) if they loose the flemish nationalistic idiots of NVA.

So no I just started this thread because I had this discussion with some people (some within Groen! as I live in Mortsel you probably now one of them ;)) that were considering it. Very intelligent and classy people not politicel prostitutes as Sannen and Talhaoui.
 

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Groen!


love the exclamation point! I'll! never! vote! for! another! political! party! again! if! they! don't! use! the! exclamation! point!

!
 

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I see. Well not that I am such a Stevaert fan myself, but I do believe in his integrity, he's just a mean media machine in my eyes:tongue:

Anyway the day you vote PVDA, I promise that I'll personally kick some sense into you. See it as a friendly gesture ;)

On a serious note, I can see the dillema of both the political prostitutes you mentioned. Other than personal glory and financial benifit and stuff like that, it must feel too frustrating not being able to effectuate your personal believes. I can understand that a politician is willing to sacrifice some elements of his ideology to avoid years and years of passive opposition. Anyway that's what I was thinking.

Anyway since you mentioned Mortsel, quess which political prostitute gave Spa a call last week to be on their list.

ADRIAAN
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Discussion Starter #13
adriaan said:
Anyway the day you vote PVDA, I promise that I'll personally kick some sense into you. See it as a friendly gesture ;)
Thank you but that won't be necessary I have a couple of friends who work for "geneeskunde voor het volk" which is closely related with PVDA. Indeed not everything is perfect but for the biggst part it are people who work incredibly hard for what they believe in and make a difference for a lot of people in poverty so it is not a group I want to judge.

The day I vote CD&V however I indeed need people to kick some sence in me :D


adriaan said:
Anyway since you mentioned Mortsel, quess which political prostitute gave Spa a call last week to be on their list.
Well it didn't went that way. It's more like she's considering it (only for 2006 and only in a kartel) to remlain teh influential factor she is to continue to tackle the traffic-problems Mortsel is having.


For teh rest I would have like to have said "we don't need your sympathy vote :stuckup: :fero:"... but we do :D
 

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Sure, PVDA has some closely related organisations that deliver good work, but there are many good organisations who support the poorest amough us. Kris Merckx his Geneeskunde voor het volk is ofcourse unique, I have great respect for that, but not nessecairly for the ideology behind it.

As a party PVDA is insignificant, and their ideology is unrealistic.
I did some reading on their website, mon dieu, well some parts are even funny.

About me voting Groen! , well I am not sure yet. I usually vote for specific persons to be honnest. Jean Luc will get one, the other one I don't know yet.

ADRIAAN
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gOD said:
With Nader entering the election race I asked myself a question, something that is very actual in Belgium (and Holland and France) to with the coming elections. I asked myself whether it is wise to vote strategically. With that I mean to vote for a party that doesn't really present your idea of how the society should be regulated, but on the other hand comes close to that idea and will be more influential than the party that you actually believe in. On one hand it's positive because you could help to get a governement that is in general of your idea (left in my case). On the other hand it would not be left enough and you will vote for something that is not really your idea.

More concrete in the USA a quite some people voted Nader in last elections. Although quite some scientific studies deny it, this is believed to have devided the left side and costed those few votes the Democrats needed to keep Bush out of the White House. What should you do. Vote Democrats to fight "a bigger evil" or be pure and vote for you idea knowing this could mean the exact opposite?

Two comments:
(1) don't see this as a left-right discussion. The same could
happen for the right side

(2) I know this topic leans close (although it shouldn't be the same) so if you FM's see the need to merge (or be in another way creative ;)) with it, be my guest :)
 

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gOD, your opinion please.

I am going to use this topic, because Steve Stevaert was already mentioned here.

Anyway, since all parties have started their campaign for the upcoming elections, I think it's the right time to ask you this.

I constantly hear leftish intellectuals and in particular many members of Groen!, label Steve Stevaert as a populist. Could you, as an insider, perhaps clarify what they exactly mean by that? Since you have made clear that you're not particulary found of Stevaert yourself:pp , what's your opinion?



ADRIAAN
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
As you know I'm a lazy bum (lazy bums, vote Groen!, we're the party for you :D). Therefore I'm not going to answer you with a post of my own. I'm going to refer to an article by Jan Blommaert (he was also interviewed by Knack 2 or 3 weeks ago) in Samenleving & Politiek at the end of last year. This not only because I am lazy but most all because he says exactely what my problem is with politicians as Stevaert (but you can easily drawn the same line for politicians as Berlusconi, Fortuyn, Wouter Bos, Tony Blair).

http://www.sampol.be/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=76

Politicians as the ones named is on the one hand their tendency to formulating simple solutions for very complex problems. This simple solutions being completely irrealistic. And if that isn't enough they slash out to anyone, mainly intellectuals, who dare to question those soundbites.

My main problem with them is that they bend over for the lazy (not to say dumb) middleclass citizen who has everything he needs and still doesn't stop to complain about problems that sometimes don't even exist (fear for ciminiality that all studies show is absed on nothing but a feeling). It is their acceptance of politics having to adopt the rules of the market. Citizens are seen as costumers (the biggest lie in the last 15 years) who jsut have to yell like a little baby and be pampered right away even if their demands are completely outragous). The energy that this takes is payed not by those with money (Het Kapitaal :D) but by the very poor.

Anyway this all is a bit to incoherent and I don't have time make it more clear (maybe I will inthe beginning of June). The article I refer too does it soo much better. maybe Adriaan you can translate the main ideas.


Ah yes this is more my idea, the objections of many Greens against stevaert lay in this issue, but also in other matters. For example the fact that socialism and ecologism are two different ideologies, that Stevaert main aim is not a progressive project, but the destruction of Groen! to cover up his left side (again on a personal note: I really question the intellect of those who do not see this :rolleyes: )
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Because he too is one of those politicians, new labour in all countries has a lot of them, who walk after the public rather than before them as a true leader/politicans should. If you just take the new corestatement the Dutch PVDA adopted yesterday you see what I mean. It's just a vague text with lots of clichés nobody (also those voting rightwing) can disagree with whereas in reality disagreement is the essence of democracy.

The thing that annoys me are his opinions about foreignors. In Holland (sometimes I thik even more than in Flanders) there is this incredibly negative approach of everybody is from abroad. A true socialist should act against that, even if that costs votes. Bos doesn't have the guts to do that he just cries with the other wolves. He'd sell every person on the margin of societyif that 'd win win 1 vote extra.

With that I do agree with you that he belongs in a deifferent category than Fortuyn and Berlusconi. Bos is more the Dutch equivalent of Stevaert here. Still all the politicians named fall in the logic of populism (and that is the topic Adriaan wanted to talk about) as proposed in the article.
 

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Ok. Fair enough. But personally I don't think there is anything wrong with a politician that does what the people who voted for him want. To me that's the whole point of having a people's representative. The different parties, with different constituencies, will ensure a balance that represents society. Especially in the Dutch system where usually two or three parties form a coalition government. So you will hardly ever see one party's program completely carried out. Of course where the balance shifts is when governance becomes a popularity contest. And that's propapably where the concept of populism comes in. Yet it is relative to how it's perceived.

When Fortuyn put a hard line on immigration on his political agenda, he was accused of populism, yet mere days after his assasination, just about every major political party in the country had adopted his ideas, the same ones who before had found it to be populism. So one can wonder if the charge of populism was accurate, or if it was just used as a stick to beat him with.

But maybe that's your point. That they shifted to popular demand. And I too find it surprising to see the PvdA, D66 and the like supporting a tough stance on immigration. And I agree that it isn't in line with how their political points of view were regarded by the public. But to come back to my earlier point, now that those views are known, and they were part of their election campaign, I don't find it surprising to see them doing what the people want now. Those who feel let down can certainly find themselves with the programs of the many other parties Holland has. To each his own.
 
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