[Pila]

Pila


The freakin Italians Sh!t their way into yet another final.

I have never seen a team with such luck throughout their history.

This is too devestating for me to handle. Why can't Portugal get a fraction of that luck?????

These two last days have been the most depressing to this Futebol fan.

I'd riot, but I live in the phucking suburbs!!!

I must have done somthing terribly wrong in my past life.

I need some serious Prozac.

 

[Razor]

Hold the Phone

LUCK?!

Let me start this response off by being the first to admit that I'm not a big fan of defensive futebol, and Italia has played defensive futebol since they learned to dribble. Holland took it to Italia from the beginning of the match, and played incredibly and creatively for 120 minutes.

But let's give some credit to the Italians! The sending off was justified, but the Italians were getting yellows for the same offenses the Dutch were dishing out without so much as a foul call. The first penalty was borderline (that kind of shirt-tug happens 40 times during a game at both ends without any call - and it definitely shouldn't be called when a team's down a man already) and the second was deserved. All that aside - name one other team in the tournament (the world?) that could accomplish what the Italians did yesterday? Hold a full-strength Holland - nearly everyone's choice as the best team in the tournament - scoreless for 80 minutes with a man down?! Maldini, Iuliano, Nesta, and my man-of-the-match: Cannavaro were incredible (especially Cannavaro!) and to hold on until the penalty kicks is literally unbelievable. They deserved the win, and they'll beat France (they won't be playing the same way with 11!).

FORZA ITALIA!

 

[ST]

I agree, what the italians did was heroic. I think the ref tried his best to get Holland into the final, but they couldnt finish the job. That first penalty was ridiculous and yet again, I dont think the dutch would have gotten a man sent off for what Zambrotta did..
It goes to show that the team that dominates doesnt always win. Which shows certain people that even though the french dominated vs Portugal there was nothing fair, logical or "deserved" about the fact that they won. Like Italy, we fought heroically and we shouldnt have been eliminated in that way. If Holland had made their chances count the italians would have had the same sob story as us...

 

[Pila]

Razor-

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

However, the deserving team did not win. To say otherwise is just plain idiotic.

My opologies for my rant.

 

[Razor]

Pila- No need to apologize for a rant; that's certainly your perogative. However, I definitely disagree with your "to say otherwise is just idiotic..." - I think you're way off-base there.

For example - let's try to take the emotion out of the Portugal loss versus France for a minute (not easy!). If you remove the hand-ball - you have a 1-1 game. Was the 1st touch before the pass to Henry offside? Yes - but the play was still going, and Portugal was still defending...and France still scored. So you have a pretty even 1-1 game going to penalty kicks. What if the hand-ball hadn't been called and the game went to penalty kicks and Portugal lost the shootout? Would we still be saying the better team was robbed? I don't think so. We'd still be bummed at the loss, but I don't think we'd have this collective sense of injustice and loss that we're all experiencing now.

With Italia - I invite you to watch any championship-winning Italian side this century and show me an all-offensive creative side that dominates the offensive play for the majority of the game. Good luck! They play a defensive style, just as the great German teams played a rigid & precise style, and the great Brasilian teams played their "beautiful game". You can argue the method, but you cannot argue the results. I give you RedEagle's beloved two-time Stanley Cup Champion New Jersey Devils as Exhibit B; a different sport, but the same principle. They play defensive, trapping hockey. It's neither creative or very entertaining to watch for the casual hockey fan with most games being 1-0 or 2-1 results. But at some point you have to tip your hat to the Devils for having the discipline and the technique necessariy to play defensively at that high a level for an 82-game season (for those of us who have played hockey, we can tell you it's not that easy).

So my point is - if Italia has a game plan that they have drawn up, deploy it to perfection, and win championships with it - who's to say they don't deserve it?

 

[RedEagle]

OK...I am not a fan of Italy or their style of play...But yesterday I will give them credit...cause UEFA tried everything imaginable to set up a Holland-France final and the Italians were lucky enough to offset that pompous plan. They played great defensively in which they are in a class by themselves. Yes they were lucky...there is no team that I know capable of blowing two regular time penalty shots with the exception of Holland. The referee was against the Italians throughout the game. I just wish Portugal would have been this lucky...but we must tip our hats to the Italians. They showed their grit yesterday.

Razor, the NJ DEVILS have a more potent offense than the Italians, although they play the same disciplined defensive game. The Devils will shoot 30-35 times per game...the Italians 3 times if they are putting on an offensive show.

 

[Razor]

I'll give you that, RedEagle. This season's version created far more offensive chances than the team which won the first cup. I mention them because that championship team marked the first time a team had won with that style of play and sparked at least a dozen other teams in the NHL to implement that same defensive-brand of hockey.

Its funny - everyone jumps on NJ's style for "slowing down the game", but I can appreciate it as a distinct strategy because I've seen a similar philosophy in place for years with the Italians in futebol.

Forza Italia!

 

[Marco]

I couldn't disagree more with that style of play (both hockey and football) but I will say 1 thing...very effective.

 

[Guest]

I didn't see yesterday's match so I can't really comment one way or another, but it still seems a bogus way to reaching the final. Personally, nothing makes me tear my hair out faster than a defensive based match.

Given the stories I've read I don't know if it was the Italians having more luck or the Dutch just having bad luck.

One thing's sure --- de Boer and Kluivert made everyone forget about Raul's PK

 

[Razor]

Good Point on Raul's PK - which brings me back to Toldo's performance. Kluivert hit the post, and Stam just plain blew it over the crossbar - but Toldo saved two separate PKs in the same game. When's the last time that happened? The man had ice water in his veins for the entire game, and although Holland may have controlled the ball 70% of the time, they only had a handfull of legitimate threats on goal, with most of Toldo's saves being easy ones.

PS - he's not my favorite player by any means, but congratulations to Luigi DiBiagio for exorcising his demons and nailing the 1st penalty for Italia!

 

[Pila]

I realize what your saying, Razor.

But, I wasn't referring to style of play. I know the Italian scheme well. It may not be pretty, but effective as hell. And, the end results justifies the means.

What I'm referring to as luck is hard to substantiate in this conversation because it's a relative term.

The two missed penalties, for instance. You can argue that isn't Italy's luck but more so Dutch ineptness. And, I'll argue that the Dutch don't miss those two penalties VS Portugal.

Historically speaking, based on my subjective observation, Italy has always had that extra element that seems to allways make the ball spin their way. It has been said that good teams make their own luck.

Perhaps...perhaps not.

 

[Razor]

Good Point

I can't argue with you there - Italy's definitely been on the good end of the proverbial lucky stick over the years. I think I see your point now. I give Kluivert's goalpost (I think they had another one during the run of play, too) up as luck.

But if that's the definition of luck, one could argue that Italy's had its share of bad luck too (see Baggio and DiBiagio's PK adventures). *I'm not being argumentative here, I'm just playing devil's advocate for discussion's sake*.

Good discussion!

 

[ST]

Actually I believe this was the first time the italians have won a penalty shootout, ever! So they have not been very lucky in that sense. I do agree that they often seem to have that little extra something to save them from defeat. Some may call it luck, I think it is connected with the "big team" rule. That little bit of refereing bias that can influence a tight game in one direction or another. Like the quarter final against Nigeria in WC 94 where the africans were denied a clear penalty, or more recently that penalty against the turks. The game against Holland is however beyond any rational explanation, and I think its gonna be a long time before we see something like that again.