One of the most interesting issues in Austrian football at the moment is whether to set up a championship with U23-sides of the Bundesliga-teams or to leave the current situation with the amateurs as it is (Austria Amateure in Regionalliga Ost, Rapid Amateure in Wiener Liga at the moment).
U23-championship?
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I see no real sense in a U23-championship, as the Amateure are used to get older players some games too. For example Hasek built up after his injury to be fit for the Bundesliga.
The thought of a U23-championship is to force young players, but I don't see that happen. If there's a rule to have only young players in the team it's not usefull for the clubs, if there's no such rule, nothing would change.
Personally I'd prefer a reserves-league. Aren't there 10 (or 8) clubs who could get a team for that competition together, I wonder? It would be better for RLO, RLW, Wiener Liga, etc. to get rid of the Amateure-teams, imo, and those teams would have a championship-title to fight for, while at the moment Regionalliga is the highest league they could reach and the only target is to avoid relegation...
The thought of a U23-championship is to force young players, but I don't see that happen. If there's a rule to have only young players in the team it's not usefull for the clubs, if there's no such rule, nothing would change.
Personally I'd prefer a reserves-league. Aren't there 10 (or 8) clubs who could get a team for that competition together, I wonder? It would be better for RLO, RLW, Wiener Liga, etc. to get rid of the Amateure-teams, imo, and those teams would have a championship-title to fight for, while at the moment Regionalliga is the highest league they could reach and the only target is to avoid relegation...
Just for the records, I´m all for a U23/reserves-league.
I´m enjoying that kind of games in Regionalliga Ost this season, and it would be really cool for the Bundesliga as well.
Always nice, pay 1 game, watch 2.
And I can also understand that some teams in RLO or WienerLiga have a problem with Wettbewerbsverzerrung.
The fact that FAK or Rapid can field any player they want makes it hard for opponent sides to prepare for such games.
I mean, fielding a former CL-player like Martin Hasek in 3rd division...simply unfair
I´m enjoying that kind of games in Regionalliga Ost this season, and it would be really cool for the Bundesliga as well.
Always nice, pay 1 game, watch 2.
And I can also understand that some teams in RLO or WienerLiga have a problem with Wettbewerbsverzerrung.
The fact that FAK or Rapid can field any player they want makes it hard for opponent sides to prepare for such games.
I mean, fielding a former CL-player like Martin Hasek in 3rd division...simply unfair
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Look at the table, then you see these teams are strong enough for top 5 in Wienerliga and bottom 5 in Ostliga. Those zusammengewürfelte Youngster, aufgefüllt with some Rekonvaleszente and drop outs are not really class acts and thus not really unfair contenders. Otherwise I'm also for the U23 thing, but they called it off anyway, see post ahead.
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Bundesliga-Arbeitsgruppe entschied: U23-Meisterschaft ist noch nicht reif für die nächste Saison
Beim heutigen Jour Fixe der Bundesliga kam es in Leoben zu einem regen Gedankenaustausch zwischen den Managern der max. Bundesliga-Klubs.
Schon im Vorfeld hatte sich die "Arbeitsgruppe 2. Mannschaft" Gedanken zu einer möglichen U23-Meisterschaft gemacht. Der Plan einer kurzfristigen Einführung bereits für die nächste Saison wurde dabei allerdings verworfen.
Die Arbeitsgruppe, bestehend aus Vertretern von Puntigamer Sturm Graz, Austria Memphis Magna, Rapid Wien, Josko Ried und Admira Wacker Mödling, kam zu der Einsicht, daß eine sofortige Einführung einer U23-Meisterschaft bereits für das Spieljahr 2002/03 noch zu früh wäre.
"Eine so kurzfristige Umsetzung wäre sportlich nicht zielführend", erklärte Bundesliga-Vorstand Reinhard Nachbagauer im Namen der Arbeitsgruppe.
Dennoch wird es im Laufe der nächsten Saison zu einer Konzeptausarbeitung über die bestmögliche Umsetzung dieses U23-Bewerbes kommen.
Als vorrangig, so kam die "AG 2. Mannschaft" zu der Einsicht, sei eine mögliche Adaptierung der bisherigen Bestimmungen für die Amateur-Teams der Bundesliga-Vereine zu behandeln.
In demnächst geplanten Gesprächen mit dem ÖFB und den Landesverbänden soll es um eine mögliche Verbesserung für die Einsatzmöglichkeiten von jungen Spielern bzw. Kaderspielern der max.-Ligisten in den Amateur-Mannschaften kommen.
Sturm-Manager Heinz Schilcher präzisierte diese möglichen Adaptierungsvorschläge: "Aufstiegsmöglichkeit der Amateurteams bis in die Erste Division, ein fixer Spieltermin am Sonntag damit möglichst viele Kaderspieler eingesetzt werden können und eine Verkleinerung der Kaderliste". Bisher müssen zu Saisonbeginn 13 Spieler festgelegt werden, die nicht in der Amateur-Mannschaft eingesetzt werden dürfen.
Im anschließenden Jour Fixe, bei dem alle Klubvertreter (Ausnahme Tirol) im Kongreß-Center Leoben anwesend waren, wurden einige Neuerungen für die neue Saison festgelegt.
So ist etwas für das neue Stadion in Salzburg ein FIFA-genehmigter Kunstrasen geplant. Bereits ab Februar 2003 sollen die Spiele der T-Mobile-Bundesliga dort stattfinden. Auch internationale Klub-Bewerbe sind demnächst auf Kunstrasen vorgesehen.
Weiters wurde beim Jour Fixe mit Casino SW Bregenz der österreichische UIC 2002-Starter fix festgelegt.
Außerdem berichtete Bundesliga-Vorstand Nachbagauer von einer UEFA-Tagung mit dem Thema "UEFA-Klublizenzierungsverfahren". Diese Bedingungen sollen stufenweise an die österreichischen Verhältnisse angepaßt und in das Lizenzierungsverfahren der Bundesliga eingearbeitet werden. Einer diesbezüglichen Arbeitsgruppe gehören Sturm, Austria und Ried an.
Beim heutigen Jour Fixe der Bundesliga kam es in Leoben zu einem regen Gedankenaustausch zwischen den Managern der max. Bundesliga-Klubs.
Schon im Vorfeld hatte sich die "Arbeitsgruppe 2. Mannschaft" Gedanken zu einer möglichen U23-Meisterschaft gemacht. Der Plan einer kurzfristigen Einführung bereits für die nächste Saison wurde dabei allerdings verworfen.
Die Arbeitsgruppe, bestehend aus Vertretern von Puntigamer Sturm Graz, Austria Memphis Magna, Rapid Wien, Josko Ried und Admira Wacker Mödling, kam zu der Einsicht, daß eine sofortige Einführung einer U23-Meisterschaft bereits für das Spieljahr 2002/03 noch zu früh wäre.
"Eine so kurzfristige Umsetzung wäre sportlich nicht zielführend", erklärte Bundesliga-Vorstand Reinhard Nachbagauer im Namen der Arbeitsgruppe.
Dennoch wird es im Laufe der nächsten Saison zu einer Konzeptausarbeitung über die bestmögliche Umsetzung dieses U23-Bewerbes kommen.
Als vorrangig, so kam die "AG 2. Mannschaft" zu der Einsicht, sei eine mögliche Adaptierung der bisherigen Bestimmungen für die Amateur-Teams der Bundesliga-Vereine zu behandeln.
In demnächst geplanten Gesprächen mit dem ÖFB und den Landesverbänden soll es um eine mögliche Verbesserung für die Einsatzmöglichkeiten von jungen Spielern bzw. Kaderspielern der max.-Ligisten in den Amateur-Mannschaften kommen.
Sturm-Manager Heinz Schilcher präzisierte diese möglichen Adaptierungsvorschläge: "Aufstiegsmöglichkeit der Amateurteams bis in die Erste Division, ein fixer Spieltermin am Sonntag damit möglichst viele Kaderspieler eingesetzt werden können und eine Verkleinerung der Kaderliste". Bisher müssen zu Saisonbeginn 13 Spieler festgelegt werden, die nicht in der Amateur-Mannschaft eingesetzt werden dürfen.
Im anschließenden Jour Fixe, bei dem alle Klubvertreter (Ausnahme Tirol) im Kongreß-Center Leoben anwesend waren, wurden einige Neuerungen für die neue Saison festgelegt.
So ist etwas für das neue Stadion in Salzburg ein FIFA-genehmigter Kunstrasen geplant. Bereits ab Februar 2003 sollen die Spiele der T-Mobile-Bundesliga dort stattfinden. Auch internationale Klub-Bewerbe sind demnächst auf Kunstrasen vorgesehen.
Weiters wurde beim Jour Fixe mit Casino SW Bregenz der österreichische UIC 2002-Starter fix festgelegt.
Außerdem berichtete Bundesliga-Vorstand Nachbagauer von einer UEFA-Tagung mit dem Thema "UEFA-Klublizenzierungsverfahren". Diese Bedingungen sollen stufenweise an die österreichischen Verhältnisse angepaßt und in das Lizenzierungsverfahren der Bundesliga eingearbeitet werden. Einer diesbezüglichen Arbeitsgruppe gehören Sturm, Austria und Ried an.
@tgv
No, I meant a U23-league like in RLO, where the teams also can include some players older than 23. That´d be the best solution, IMO.
@Alexx
Imagine:
Team A and Team B are both fighting relegation.
Team A beats Austria Amateure twice, as the Favoritner side fields youth players only.
Team B loses both games against Hasek, Knaller+co.
Clearly "Wettbewerbsverzerrung", no?
A U23-league would be a great idea for the fans, it would be fairer for the opponent teams and it´s also a good aspect that some more young players will get into the spotlight.
No, I meant a U23-league like in RLO, where the teams also can include some players older than 23. That´d be the best solution, IMO.
@Alexx
Imagine:
Team A and Team B are both fighting relegation.
Team A beats Austria Amateure twice, as the Favoritner side fields youth players only.
Team B loses both games against Hasek, Knaller+co.
Clearly "Wettbewerbsverzerrung", no?
A U23-league would be a great idea for the fans, it would be fairer for the opponent teams and it´s also a good aspect that some more young players will get into the spotlight.
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Mx, true, Wettbewerbsverzerrung. But then again, say, relegation fighting team A plays Bregenz with Lawaree and, say, Regtop, suspended for cards. Relegation fighting teams B doesn't have the the same luck. Well,....
Or, the champion chills and Bregenz wins away at the champion and suddenly is a serious contender for UEFA....
Wettbewerbsverzerrung happens different ways. But I get your point and confirm it valid, however not full blast. E.g. today's Knaller was Wettbewerbsverzerrung AGAINST the Amateure and usually there are no CL players involved. Hasek was the exception and reports tell, he did not rule these 2 games at all. No wonder, yesterday he suffered a cramp in 85th minute, which I havn't seen in a long time, and after the game he walked in socks clearly in blister pain. Again, I get your point, but if you look over the whole season, you get mostly unexperienced youngsters having big difficulties playing the other teams. But anyways, I'm with you to rule the farm teams out, but then we need a league for them. So I supportt the U23 idea, but not the reserve. What's the use for a reserve league ? Teams should not be supported with a league for tons of senior players they load on and on in their in their rosters. .
Or, the champion chills and Bregenz wins away at the champion and suddenly is a serious contender for UEFA....
Wettbewerbsverzerrung happens different ways. But I get your point and confirm it valid, however not full blast. E.g. today's Knaller was Wettbewerbsverzerrung AGAINST the Amateure and usually there are no CL players involved. Hasek was the exception and reports tell, he did not rule these 2 games at all. No wonder, yesterday he suffered a cramp in 85th minute, which I havn't seen in a long time, and after the game he walked in socks clearly in blister pain. Again, I get your point, but if you look over the whole season, you get mostly unexperienced youngsters having big difficulties playing the other teams. But anyways, I'm with you to rule the farm teams out, but then we need a league for them. So I supportt the U23 idea, but not the reserve. What's the use for a reserve league ? Teams should not be supported with a league for tons of senior players they load on and on in their in their rosters. .
Exacxtly my thoughts.Alexx said:
So U23-teams with the permission to field 3 or 4 players older than 23 would be a good solution.
I´m not aware of the concrete rules of the RLO U23-league, but copying their system might be a great idea.
Well, Hasek showed up at the "Fan-Treff" and at least I didn't get the impression of him suffering pain.
Anyway: a reserve-league is just for the purpose we use Amateure right now. For benched players to get a game from time to time, for players after injuries to get going again and to build up youngsters. So in fact there's no real difference to a U23-league, but I don't see why there should be an age-regulation. Most of the time youngsters will play like now, but why not have the possibility to field more than two or three older players if necessary? Some players are good back-up players for emergencies (e.g. Tamandl), but he wouldn't fit in a U23 league - so he'd probably have to leave the club.
And of course "Wettbewerbsverzerrung" would disappear...
Anyway: a reserve-league is just for the purpose we use Amateure right now. For benched players to get a game from time to time, for players after injuries to get going again and to build up youngsters. So in fact there's no real difference to a U23-league, but I don't see why there should be an age-regulation. Most of the time youngsters will play like now, but why not have the possibility to field more than two or three older players if necessary? Some players are good back-up players for emergencies (e.g. Tamandl), but he wouldn't fit in a U23 league - so he'd probably have to leave the club.
And of course "Wettbewerbsverzerrung" would disappear...
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...but then again, we almost all here are damn sure smarter than the Nachgabauer chappie, but how do we save the biggest reason for having the real Amateure in Ostliga and other ones on deserved Dorfplätzen ?
The trick was to fish out the talents from kiddie contests and to make them fight against experienced and abgezockte Brüder. So moving the farm teams into geschützte Werkstätten again, is stealing away the factor of building street-wiseness and hardboildness.
Which are just the two things so terribly needed for refreshing Austrian NT football. We see those kids do fine in kiddie and teenage tournaments and then they go under from U21 on. And of course they do, because apart from football here not being this immensly important ramp for coming out of poverty and the hardest of lifes as in not so few other countries, and thus the kids not taking football as unique career chance as seriously as the kids in some other countries, these boys of our's in U21 play the guys who play in first league (or reserve team) football against the toughest bones.
So what now ? Accept some Wettbewerbsverzerrung in Regionalliga to build more hardboiled kids for having better supply for NT football, or bow down to no Wettbewerbsverzerrung at any cost ? And evaluating that, I take a U turn. No geschützte Werkstatt called U23 league, but rather reason to complain for bottom 5 teams in Regionalliga. It's not totally fair, I agree and I hate all traces of that. But what the heck, the system like now is better for building thick skin and there is no gertechtigkeit in life anyway, let alone in football. And while I'm at it, who does the ref who had his show in FAK-Tirol think he is ?
The trick was to fish out the talents from kiddie contests and to make them fight against experienced and abgezockte Brüder. So moving the farm teams into geschützte Werkstätten again, is stealing away the factor of building street-wiseness and hardboildness.
Which are just the two things so terribly needed for refreshing Austrian NT football. We see those kids do fine in kiddie and teenage tournaments and then they go under from U21 on. And of course they do, because apart from football here not being this immensly important ramp for coming out of poverty and the hardest of lifes as in not so few other countries, and thus the kids not taking football as unique career chance as seriously as the kids in some other countries, these boys of our's in U21 play the guys who play in first league (or reserve team) football against the toughest bones.
So what now ? Accept some Wettbewerbsverzerrung in Regionalliga to build more hardboiled kids for having better supply for NT football, or bow down to no Wettbewerbsverzerrung at any cost ? And evaluating that, I take a U turn. No geschützte Werkstatt called U23 league, but rather reason to complain for bottom 5 teams in Regionalliga. It's not totally fair, I agree and I hate all traces of that. But what the heck, the system like now is better for building thick skin and there is no gertechtigkeit in life anyway, let alone in football. And while I'm at it, who does the ref who had his show in FAK-Tirol think he is ?
I agree to what Alexx said about geschützte Werkstätten, but let's add some words about the money-factor, which is always important in Austrian Football, unfortunately especially when it comes to the youth system.
I'm absolutely sure it makes sense that the youngsters play against semi-professionals (former Bundesliga-players, guys who had the talent but not the attitude to become a pro,...) in Regionalliga, but it doesn't make sense in Landesliga IMO where there are just too many of the toughest bones (Holzhackerligen is what I want to say). But it just doesn't work to stay in RL with the youngsters only which means the clubs have to stick with players they know will never make it to ther first team (22+) and sign players especially for their second team. And that's the point: a competitive RL-squad is more expensive than a U23 where you just line up the youngsters and 2 or 3 players who have been injured.
And there's another argument against the U23 IMO which is the lack of balance: at the moment every Amateure-team plays where they belong (which means somewhere between middle of 3rd and bottom of 4th league, and of course the leagues are not comparable when you talk about different Bundesländer). So they have to compete every week. But then, the U23 of FAK (for example) slaughering the one of Bregenz 8:0 need not be the best thing for the development of young players...
I'm absolutely sure it makes sense that the youngsters play against semi-professionals (former Bundesliga-players, guys who had the talent but not the attitude to become a pro,...) in Regionalliga, but it doesn't make sense in Landesliga IMO where there are just too many of the toughest bones (Holzhackerligen is what I want to say). But it just doesn't work to stay in RL with the youngsters only which means the clubs have to stick with players they know will never make it to ther first team (22+) and sign players especially for their second team. And that's the point: a competitive RL-squad is more expensive than a U23 where you just line up the youngsters and 2 or 3 players who have been injured.
And there's another argument against the U23 IMO which is the lack of balance: at the moment every Amateure-team plays where they belong (which means somewhere between middle of 3rd and bottom of 4th league, and of course the leagues are not comparable when you talk about different Bundesländer). So they have to compete every week. But then, the U23 of FAK (for example) slaughering the one of Bregenz 8:0 need not be the best thing for the development of young players...
No? Would boost their confidence...arantes said:
Seriously:
Alexx, well, that's a good argument. The factor of building up players by copying others would be reduced.
And I totally agree that ref Brugger was an a**hole sondergleichen...
Another valid point by arantes. But all Amateure-teams have the chance to promote to RLO, RLW or whatever...
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