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...I doubt to start this thread, because can convert in a battle field, but sincerely for Madrid and Barca fans, does the Liga looks like a comb now?

More for Real (due to the age of their players, and time playing in Real), is this the end of a cicle?

And for both, do you think your teams wil manage the Liga now, or will be too much the pressure, at least both have a big adavantage to even loose some points...
 

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Fangio said:
...I doubt to start this thread, because can convert in a battle field, but sincerely for Madrid and Barca fans, does the Liga looks like a comb now?

More for Real (due to the age of their players, and time playing in Real), is this the end of a cicle?

And for both, do you think your teams wil manage the Liga now, or will be too much the pressure, at least both have a big adavantage to even loose some points...
I don't know what's a comb (un peine???), sorry, I didn't understand it.

IMO, the Spanish football is in transition. Real Madrid finished the "galactico" cycle one year ago in the Copa final against Zaragoza. Since then, they didn't raise the head. Now, Madrid still has a great striker, Ronaldo, and a decent defense, mainly because Samuel began to adapt, but their midfield is old and dead. Beckham is useless, Figo and Zidane should be send to Qatar to play with Guardiola and Batistuta, and even Raul looks dead despite his age. Real Madrid needs a new midfield in all the positions.

Deportivo finished the Irureta era. I think that they still have good players, but they need to replace key players like Fran and Mauro Silva and to find a new "Makaay".

Valencia still have a great squad, but they need a good coach. It seems that Antonio López has found the best XI, obviously with Aimar being the boss, as it should be. This team can give a lot of glory yet.

Barcelona is the only one that it is growing. It is true that we were sent off by Chelsea, but this team is just giving its first steps with many players under 26 like Ronaldinho, Etoo, Xavi, Puyol, etc. We lost in London, as we could have won. I don't feel inferior to Chelsea, not superior either.

Then there are other teams that are growing like Sevilla, Villarreal and Betis. If they don't sell their key players, I think that they can be good alternatives in the future, but they're too immature in Europe.

IMO, the Spanish football is going to live 2 or 3 years of transition, after almost a decade of dominance with Madrid and Valencia winning titles and getting finals and with Barcelona and Depor always in the last stages.

About this Liga. I think that Barcelona is going to win it, if nothing strange happens. We have an 8 point gap (9 if Madrid doesn't win us 4-0 in the Bernabeu) over Madrid with 12 matches to play. I can see Barcelona droping points until the end of the season, but I don't see Madrid winning everything. Besides, Barcelona and Madrid have lost in 2 different ways. Barça died with doing good football, of course, making too many mistakes, but you didn't see them dead at any moment. On the other hand, Real Madrid is an old dinosaur creeping on the pitch. The Spanish press (both madridista and barcelonista) are treating both teams in a different way, while Barça gets respect, Madrid gets hits. IMO, Madrid is worse than Barcelona at this moment. In Madrid, they feel that it's the end of an era, while in Barcelona, they feel that we're opening a new era.

The rest doesn't count, the gap between Barcelona and the 3rd (Espanyol) are 17 points with 33 to be played.
 

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I'd actually pay to watch Zidane vs. Gravesen in a to-the-death scrap, comb or no comb.

A comb, earlier today.
 

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beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)
even bald and with a bulging wasteline i'm sure Spaniards will still emphasise the attractiveness of RM and Barca, while the lean and hungry Italian teams will surely be described as dull, boring and ugly.

who wants to win the CL when you could fight over a "comb". i'm sure "galacticos" like Beckham are more interested in hair care accessories than trophies anyway. you've got to feel sorry for Zidane though ;)
 

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Vagabondo said:
beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)
even bald and with a bulging wasteline i'm sure Spaniards will still emphasise the attractiveness of RM and Barca, while the lean and hungry Italian teams will surely be described as dull, boring and ugly.

who wants to win the CL when you could fight over a "comb". i'm sure "galacticos" like Beckham are more interested in hair care accessories than trophies anyway. you've got to feel sorry for Zidane though ;)
That happens if you're too idiot and if you fall into stereotypes. There is not an English style, there is not an Italian style and there is not a Spanish style. That's one of the biggest lies of football nowadays.

You can say that Barcelona, Real Madrid (not in Turin, btw), Arsenal, Milan and Inter fall into the cathegory of attacking teams. On the other hand, Valencia, Depor, Juve or Chelsea are more defensive minded.

Of course, I prefer to see attacking football than defensive football. I prefer to see an open match with 2 teams attacking than 2 teams defending with 9 players. Who doesn't?

I don't think that Real Madrid or Barcelona have to regret to be attacking teams. They've done great with their style and I don't see why they should change it. Yes, they've lost, but I don't think that we should change anything.

I don't think that Barça should be more defensive, just for having 20 bad minutes in Stamford Bridge. Also Madrid could have destroyed Juve in Madrid, but they missed too many chances. But the CL is this way, a bad day and you're out.

If Barcelona and Madrid are out, it's because they made some mistakes, but it doesn't mean anything. Considering the whole round, I don't think that Juve and Chelsea were very superior. IMO, it's ridiculous to take any conclussion out of 2 matches.
 

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Vagabondo said:
who wants to win the CL when you could fight over a "comb". i'm sure "galacticos" like Beckham are more interested in hair care accessories than trophies anyway. you've got to feel sorry for Zidane though ;)
:howler:

Anyway, I don't think la liga is a comb. I doubt real madrid seriously thought they were going to win the CL in the condition that they are in. For barca on the other hand - who haven't won a trophy for a while now - la liga will still be of merit, because I doubt they expected to win the CL this year anyway... :dontcare:
 

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well call me an idiot then and say that i "fall into stereotypes (sic)" if you want but i'm just telling you what i've noticed. it doesn't matter how many times a side like Milan has destroyed Barcelona or Real Madrid 4-0 or 5-0 down the years, or how often Juventus has sent home more fancied sides from these same two clubs in the last few seasons by plaing football that is anything other than defensive, the Spanish media obsessively labels Italian sides as boring and "anti-football" or whatever. you don't have to shoot the messenger though.

Barca shouldn't change, i agree. if the fans are happy what else matters? but don't talk about "bad days" in Europe as an excuse. of course it can happen sometimes but
with Barca it seems like a never ending hard luck story. every year they play awesome against small teams, piling up the points in the group stage and sending bookmakers off to shorten the odds of them actually winning something for a change. but then they play a decent side and the dream goes out the window...

entertaining side though, don't change. good luck for next season anyway :)
 

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Vagabondo said:
well call me an idiot then and say that i "fall into stereotypes (sic)" if you want but i'm just telling you what i've noticed. it doesn't matter how many times a side like Milan has destroyed Barcelona or Real Madrid 4-0 or 5-0 down the years, or how often Juventus has sent home more fancied sides from these same two clubs in the last few seasons by plaing football that is anything other than defensive, the Spanish media obsessively labels Italian sides as boring and "anti-football" or whatever. you don't have to shoot the messenger though.

Barca shouldn't change, i agree. if the fans are happy what else matters? but don't talk about "bad days" in Europe as an excuse. of course it can happen sometimes but
with Barca it seems like a never ending hard luck story. every year they play awesome against small teams, piling up the points in the group stage and sending bookmakers off to shorten the odds of them actually winning something for a change. but then they play a decent side and the dream goes out the window...

entertaining side though, don't change. good luck for next season anyway :)
Sorry man, I didn't express well the first sentence of my previous post. I wasn't calling you an idiot. I was talking in general, I still think that everyone that says that the "Spanish football is beautiful" or "The Italian football is boring" is an idiot. I do really believe it, because in Spain, there are attacking teams and defensive teams and also in Italy. That's all. I wasn't refering about you, Vagabondo. Sorry.

Anyway, I wonder how many Spanish press you read everyday. Can you tell me who are your favorite journalists. Which radio do you listen? Which football program do you like the most? Can you tell me which journalist labels the "Italian football" as boring? I'm really interested in it. Please, can you answer this questions? Thanx. :)

I don't think that Real Madrid or Barcelona should be jelous of Juve. Yes, they've been a problem for the 2 big Spanish clubs, but does it really mean anything to you? Not for me. I can tell you several matches won by Spanish teams against Italian teams, I could post several results of Spanish teams destroying Italian teams, so don't choose that way of discussion, because you won't go anywhere. I am not the one that it is gong to say that the Spanish teams play better than the Italians, but the opposite would be ridiculous too. Nah... I won't make this thread a "La Liga vs Serie A" thread, because it's silly.
 

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Koeman 4, i see what u mean, no need to apologise, you're English is really quite good for someone who lives in a non-English speaking country. i jumped to conclusions and i'm sorry, if anything. i responded to your thread on Spanish media just now before i read this and probably sound like a Wa^ker.

you should know that Italians take it too heart when their teams are criticised. when Italian sides perform decently they often take a lot of crap ftom Spain. gazzetta dello sport will dedicate whole stories to what Marca and other papers say about how we are killing football. my Spanish is limited to say the least but i did attempt to read some of these stories (mostly about 2 years ago, now) and particularly after Inter knocked Valencia out of the CL italian sides were crucified.

as you guessed though, i don't make a big point of reading Spanish papers, i had a go at translating what you wrote, i think you'll see why ;). anyway respect man, i really like Spain and enjoy watching Barcelona (Real Madrid have broken my cojo^es so to speak though, and i've had really enough of them and their galacticos). good to clear up the misunderstanding :)
 

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Vagabondo said:
Koeman 4, i see what u mean, no need to apologise, you're English is really quite good for someone who lives in a non-English speaking country. i jumped to conclusions and i'm sorry, if anything. i responded to your thread on Spanish media just now before i read this and probably sound like a Wa^ker.

you should know that Italians take it too heart when their teams are criticised. when Italian sides perform decently they often take a lot of crap ftom Spain. gazzetta dello sport will dedicate whole stories to what Marca and other papers say about how we are killing football. my Spanish is limited to say the least but i did attempt to read some of these stories (mostly about 2 years ago, now) and particularly after Inter knocked Valencia out of the CL italian sides were crucified.

as you guessed though, i don't make a big point of reading Spanish papers, i had a go at translating what you wrote, i think you'll see why ;). anyway respect man, i really like Spain and enjoy watching Barcelona (Real Madrid have broken my cojo^es so to speak though, and i've had really enough of them and their galacticos). good to clear up the misunderstanding :)
The football press is very biased and passionate. Too far from being objective and that's why we should be careful when we read it. Behind a sports newspaper, there is a company that wants to make money, so they write what the reader wants to read. Obviously, they defend the "Spanish way", as the Gazzetta defends the "Italian way". But Marca is written to be read for Spanish people, just as the Gazzetta is written to be read by Italians. In any case, it depends on the articles and the journalists. I can tell you about some Spanish journalists that strongly defend the Italian football (Manolo Lama -Cadena Ser, As- or Julio Maldonado -Cadena Ser, As, Canal+-, among others). There are serious articles and there are articles for "fan consumption". I think it happens everywhere though, we should not make a big deal of it.

It's true that both quote international newspapers, but this practice is very dangerous, since a particular sentence is in a certain context. Of course, I've read critics against Italian football in the Spanish media, especially, when a Spanish club beats an Italian one. Not today though. Today, the Spanish press takes the same argument: "Juve doesn't play nice, but they did their job and they deservedly won". Honestly, that's 100% true. Obviously, Juve is not a "total football" team, they don't play "beautiful" and they don't pretend to do it, but they have their own way to play football and they did their job. Everything happened according to Capello's plan, so that's a point for them.

Then we can discuss about the "beautiful football", but it depends on the tastes. I mean, I don't like how Juve plays, I know that it's efficient, but I would not like Barça to play this way. In any case, that's only MY opinion and I don't want to impose my view. Many people defend Capello's style because they consider that this is the best way to achieve results. I understand it, it's another way to play football.

I just think that everything is about fashions. When Madrid won CLs and the Italian football disappeared from the last stages, everyone said that attacking football was the way to achieve results. Now, the triumph of Mourinho, the victory of Greece in the Euro and the failure of the attacking football of Barça and Madrid have made people think that defensive football is the best way to win titles. Bah... it's just like a wheel. If Monaco and Portugal had won the CL and the Euro, people would think the opposite. I don't think that a style is better than another one, just based in one match.

Both "attacking" and "defensive" football can show many examples to "prove" that they're right. The truth is that both styles got achievements.
 

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good points Koeman4. especially on Juventus. they're not pretty but they're effective. i thoroughly dislike the way they play too. but credit to them today for beating quality opposition without any "gifts". i can't stand some of the thugs in the side like Blasi, Tacchinardi and Zebina, but they get the job done (except Blasi).

obviously the way that a team plays has a lot to do with its players though. you're title pays tribute to the late, great Rinus Michels and obviously you're a fan of total football, but Ajax in the 70's and Barcelona now had/have very gifted players in order to make this system work. with the kind of players Juve buys this style of play would be implausible. Blasi/Cannavaro/Zebina/Tacch going forward would be a joke.

i agree with you that there is no definitive Italian or Spanish style, especially in club sides which are full of foreigners. Inter, if i remember correctly, were very interested in Ronaldinho when he was younger. i'm sure he'd still play the same way if he'd ended up in Serie A (though Cuper probably wouldn't have wanted to know about him). some people would probably say that Ronaldinho wouldn't have cut it in Italy, but then Corradi has somehow been selected for our national team :(, and i hear he's not exactly taking La Liga by storm
 

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Who said beautiful football isn't effective? Who won the most WC? It's Brazil. Who won the most Champion League? It's Real Madirid.

The point is: you have to stop being obsessed with the terms "offensive style" and "defensive style". To win, you need to play smart, not play "offensive" or "defensive".

It wasn't luck that kicked Barca out of CL today. It was obvious that they weren't prepared enough for Chelsea. Take a look closer at the match, you'll see that Barca made mistakes. Don't blame it on luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The aim of the thread was to know if the biggest expectations were on CL, if that was the real aim. That will transform even enjoying it, the Liga a comb, and the bald because, speacially Madrid is going to suffe lots of pression to stay with the same players, no more galacticos, just bald people for a comb, not more dream team on the other side.

I remember when Boca lost against Olimpia in 2001 I think (my memory is lousy, and obviously more in this cases) that I careless for the rest, I just wanted that Libertadores badly, an din fact the issues the team had, where exposed, no more intelligent playing, leaving aside differences. For instance Roman played only for Delgado, Guille for Palermo, not even near as whole the usuall attitude. The history ended with half team leaving...for different reasns, is this a similar situation?

Solo para Koeman: no voy a hacer leña del arbol caido, saben de las veces que postee en forum de Barca, hasta que deje de hacerlo, que siempre el problema estuvo en el medio defensivo, y no coincidia con algunas comnpras de similares jugadores a los que ya tenian pero se los borro por pertenecer a otro Presidente y cuestiones de plata, igual el futbol es asi, hoy se gana mañana se pierde, la unica critica que le haria al Barca en el partido del Chelsea, es la misma que le aplico al Madrid, hay que rematar al rival cuando el estilo defensivo se basa mas en tener la pelota (que es la forma de defensa que mas me gusta, y practican ambos Real y Barca) y no especular al pedo, si marcas un gola mas, ahi si esperalos, y dañalos de contra, pero ir a aguantar...no va, si lo haces por ejemplo en la Libertadores, que usalmente es un tobogan por como te cobran en contra de visitante, vas muerto; SALVO que el libreto defensivo te lo tengas bien sabido, eso de guardarse atras y cuando se la tiene, se la tiene nomas (Boca 2004), pero ese requiere de no poco CULO (mucho mas que siendo ofensivo).
El planteo en ambos casos, con los equipos que tienen no me gusto ni un poco, generalmente las reacciones despues se quedan cortas.
 

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Well, for us La Liga was always the priority, since we haven't won it in 6 years, and we've put in a lot of work to get to the position we are in now. Personally, at the beginning of the season I didn't think we were ready to win the CL, but there is always a chance. Now that we are out, the league simply MUST be won.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
..that's for sure...
 

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yes, for some reason (stupidity surely) I've use it several times lately, don't know why, but is great phrase...
 

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Fangio since you keep talking about Borges, any good things to read from him? Where should I start
 

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don't know pal, maybe with Ficciones, El Aleph, you may better ask JCamilo, he can tell where to find the books, and how he did, I'm surprise with him, it seesm that he ate Borges works in a month. Anyway Like Borges said, read it if you enjoy it, because depending on what type of story, poem, or essay you grab, he can go from siimplicity, classic lines, to a beautiful excess of barroquismo. Sincerely ask J, he can guide you better since I don't know what is translate to Portuguese.
I tell I even enjoy a lot a book call "Bioblioteca Personal", is a collection of editorials of authors he read, I can't think of a better person to write a Prefacio better than him, many times is better than the book, movie, or whatever he is talking itself...
 
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