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Discussion Starter #1
I said too time ago that i thougth that
will return the times in wich Liga was barça vs madrid ,
and spanish teams were very poor in europe (CL)

Now the facts are doing me the reason...
i hope only for this year


and i expect a lot in uefa !
 

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Cluny said:
I said too time ago that i thougth that
will return the times in wich Liga was barça vs madrid ,
and spanish teams were very poor in europe (CL)

Now the facts are doing me the reason...
i hope only for this year


and i expect a lot in uefa !
I hope not. :moan:

Well, except that bit about us dominating La Liga with...some other team :D

Seriously, I don't think it's that bad. Spanish teams still have big hopes for the UEFA cup, and the league itself is strong enough for them to have a major impact in Europe over the next few years.
 

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Cluny said:
I said too time ago that i thougth that
will return the times in wich Liga was barça vs madrid ,
and spanish teams were very poor in europe (CL)

Now the facts are doing me the reason...
i hope only for this year


and i expect a lot in uefa !
No, I don't think so. I think that it's a moment of transition in Spanish football. Real Madrid and Depor are in decadence, IMO. Valencia is still missing Benitez, although they still have a good team. Barcelona lost against the best European team nowadays.

We'll be back, we dominated Europe in the last 7 or 8 years and now we have to rebuild our football, but we always go back.
 

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Koeman4 said:
No, I don't think so. I think that it's a moment of transition in Spanish football. Real Madrid and Depor are in decadence, IMO. Valencia is still missing Benitez, although they still have a good team. Barcelona lost against the best European team nowadays.

We'll be back, we dominated Europe in the last 7 or 8 years and now we have to rebuild our football, but we always go back.
Well said.

This has to be one of the worst showings by a Liga side in the CL since a long time ago. Problem is, next year it could be an even worse showing since maybe a couple of unexperienced sides like Sevilla, Villareal, Betis, Atleti, Espanyol etc. might make it to the CL. They are VERY good teams but we all remember what happened to Mallorca 3 years ago or Celta a couple of years ago ( they had a good showing i know) but they were far from cahmpionship calibre.

I hope and expect Valencia to make it, especially as they look finally like a team after the firing of Ranieri and things can only get better for them. Depor, i dont know. They will have a new coach and maybe lose Valeron, Luque, Tristan, Mauro Silva etc. but they will get new players and rebuild.

As for Real Madrid and Barca, they have enough history, resources, tradition to know that they will be back next season for sure. This has been a humbling experience for La Liga sides and we have to learn from it.
 

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The thing is... Depor and (I hate to admit it) Valencia's golden eras haven't been the kind that last forever. A great generation of players and coaches meet up for a few years, do really well, earn enough money to stay together for a bit, but never enough to replace the team with equally good players once the great generation gets old. Other midsized teams will enjoy that sort of period in the future, but only three teams in Spain (RM, Barça, maybe Atlético) have the resources to keep it going.

(I don't think Valencia's good years are over, but they won't reach superteam status, which they were close to. Always missing a couple of things that the big teams can afford, like perfect strikers, or continuity from the stars.)

The worst part is that neither Depor nor Valencia won the CL. Nottingham Forest did... I think that period of temporary English dominance was similar to the last few years for Spain.

As for Madrid and Barcelona... Barça's on the upswing and they'll have a few good years ahead. Real Madrid's is ending, due to aging and constant messing with a midfield formula that was never easy. In the early years of "let's buy a superstar every year" it would take several weeks for Madrid to find itself, and then its midfield was awesome. But that happened by forcing the team to adjust to the new star's style of play. It's impossible (or maybe it just takes a very, very long time) to adjust to the styles of play of several stars. They're just not compatible, nor are they flexible enough to play someone else's style while maintaining superstar quality.

When Spanish teams - or any teams (but particularly those smaller than RM or Barça) - have done really well in Europe, they've always had something in common: quick goals, and high goal-shot ratios. But Spain's obsessed with dominating posession. If a team does that, they get called the better team by the papers and by the fans. But when a Spanish team dominates posession, all I see is that they have the ball a lot, and they kick it around a lot, but there's a wall between them and the goal that they rarely breach. I think we need to lose our obsession with "dominating" and become faster and more direct. There's too much of a "yeah we lost... but we were better" mentality and since it's more interesting than finishing the stupidly long problem set I have to do tonight, I'm going to make it my personal theory that this mentality is holding us back.

(It's wrong pretty often, too. Some of Valencia's golden years were definitely defensive, boring, and dependent on the counterattack, but under Benitez that changed. We were attacking tons of times a game, but our best players had been sold off so we were missing most of the shots and winning lots of 1-0 games. But the press still called Valencia a defensive team! Today one of the Onda Cero guys gave props to Chelsea and it surprised me, because so few in the Spanish press have done it. They're all calling a team that scored three in 20min an anti-football team. Yet their style was more exciting (until they had a healthy lead, which is understandable) than Barcelona's, which was slow and well... boring. Neither of Barça's goals came off of the "ohmygod this could be a goal!" moments that make soccer so fun to watch.)
 

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Maybe it's just Barça vs Real Madrid for the success in the Liga (like in Italy it's just Milan vs Juve) but I can't see the crisis of Spanish football. In the end both Barça and Real Madrid could qualify with a bit of luck and a different tactical approach, at least as regards Real Madrid.
The mistake of Valencia was "going Italian" :D with players like Corradi, Fiore and Di Vaio, that means players who had never really convinced even in Italy for different reasons, and with Ranieri, who is surely not among the best Italian coaches.
 

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ToniSamp said:
Maybe it's just Barça vs Real Madrid for the success in the Liga (like in Italy it's just Milan vs Juve) but I can't see the crisis of Spanish football. In the end both Barça and Real Madrid could qualify with a bit of luck and a different tactical approach, at least as regards Real Madrid.
The mistake of Valencia was "going Italian" :D with players like Corradi, Fiore and Di Vaio, that means players who had never really convinced even in Italy for different reasons, and with Ranieri, who is surely not among the best Italian coaches.
Me neither. I am sick to see that some people fall into stereotypes. There are attacking teams and there are defensive teams, in Spain, in Italy and in England. 4 or 5 years ago, everyone dismissed the Italian football and it was ridiculous. Just 2 or 3 bad years and everyone saying that the Italian football was in decadence and stuff like this. Now it's the same, if anyone think that the Spanish football is in decadence, he's a fool.

Barcelona could have beaten Chelsea (Iniesta sent a ball to the post 2 minutes before Terry's goal). Real Madrid could have beaten Juve 3-0 in Madrid, but they failed. In CL, you have to do well, but you have to have luck on your side. This time we didn't have that luck and probably we had it in the past. But that's all. I don't think that anyone is in the position to say that Chelsea and Juve outplayed Barcelona and Real Madrid considering the overall round.
 

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ibiza109 said:
The thing is... Depor and (I hate to admit it) Valencia's golden eras haven't been the kind that last forever. A great generation of players and coaches meet up for a few years, do really well, earn enough money to stay together for a bit, but never enough to replace the team with equally good players once the great generation gets old. Other midsized teams will enjoy that sort of period in the future, but only three teams in Spain (RM, Barça, maybe Atlético) have the resources to keep it going.

(I don't think Valencia's good years are over, but they won't reach superteam status, which they were close to. Always missing a couple of things that the big teams can afford, like perfect strikers, or continuity from the stars.)

The worst part is that neither Depor nor Valencia won the CL. Nottingham Forest did... I think that period of temporary English dominance was similar to the last few years for Spain.

As for Madrid and Barcelona... Barça's on the upswing and they'll have a few good years ahead. Real Madrid's is ending, due to aging and constant messing with a midfield formula that was never easy. In the early years of "let's buy a superstar every year" it would take several weeks for Madrid to find itself, and then its midfield was awesome. But that happened by forcing the team to adjust to the new star's style of play. It's impossible (or maybe it just takes a very, very long time) to adjust to the styles of play of several stars. They're just not compatible, nor are they flexible enough to play someone else's style while maintaining superstar quality.

When Spanish teams - or any teams (but particularly those smaller than RM or Barça) - have done really well in Europe, they've always had something in common: quick goals, and high goal-shot ratios. But Spain's obsessed with dominating posession. If a team does that, they get called the better team by the papers and by the fans. But when a Spanish team dominates posession, all I see is that they have the ball a lot, and they kick it around a lot, but there's a wall between them and the goal that they rarely breach. I think we need to lose our obsession with "dominating" and become faster and more direct. There's too much of a "yeah we lost... but we were better" mentality and since it's more interesting than finishing the stupidly long problem set I have to do tonight, I'm going to make it my personal theory that this mentality is holding us back.

(It's wrong pretty often, too. Some of Valencia's golden years were definitely defensive, boring, and dependent on the counterattack, but under Benitez that changed. We were attacking tons of times a game, but our best players had been sold off so we were missing most of the shots and winning lots of 1-0 games. But the press still called Valencia a defensive team! Today one of the Onda Cero guys gave props to Chelsea and it surprised me, because so few in the Spanish press have done it. They're all calling a team that scored three in 20min an anti-football team. Yet their style was more exciting (until they had a healthy lead, which is understandable) than Barcelona's, which was slow and well... boring. Neither of Barça's goals came off of the "ohmygod this could be a goal!" moments that make soccer so fun to watch.)
I agree with the first part of your post, but not with the 2nd part. I don't think that we should change the style just for losing 2 matches. I mean, Barcelona had 20 bad minutes and we paid it, but should Barcelona change its way to play football for a bad day? I don't think so. I'm not going to enter in discussions about who plays "better or more beautiful". If Iniesta and Etoo had scored that chance, now everyone would be talking about the great Barcelona and the bad Chelsea. If Collina had listened to the assistant ref, then Barcelona would have advanced. But... it's not an excuse, it is what happens in the CL. A small factor can finsih with you. I don't think that anyone can say that Chelsea is very superior.

Also the same about Madrid. If Madrid had taken profit of one more chance in the Bernabeu, they would have beaten Juve and we wouldn't be discussing about it. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck, sometimes the ball goes in, sometimes it doesn't.

Of course, Barça and Madrid did mistakes and that's why they're out. But I don't think that the problem is the "style". I don't think that playing a "direct football" would have helped Barça much in London. Actually, we created many chances in the Camp Nou and in SB. But if that day the ball doesn't want to go in... what can you do? I would wonder about it, if Barcelona would not have a chance to score against Chelsea. But we had them. Etoo, who has a great goal ratio in La Liga, missed his chances.

The "style" is not the problem.

Deportivo is going to have a problem, because they don't have money. It depends everything on Lendoiro's eyes to sign player, but it always was this way. Valencia has the money (especially after the selling of Mestalla) and the players, I think that they can still fight for La Liga and in Europe.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
And now.... also in uefa cup!

Incredible disaster in Europe this year



Go Villarreal!!!!
 
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