[Vampire Lestat]

I am talking about our sweeper, Helguera!

Easily Helguera's best performance of the year was in the match away to Barca, and in this game his role was 85% of the time as our sweeper.

Actually, he switched that with Hierro alot but still, it was a very impressive game by him.

Now, we all know that its unlikely we will resort to this kind of formation, except in certain tough matches where we need to secure the back first like last night.

so my question is where should we start to position Helguera in the future?

we had many discussions about this before, his Defensive Midfielder vs. Central Defender role (remember me and aurelie going at it? ) anyway, most of that discussion was based on whether Vieira joins or not, which is looking less likely now.

However, my point here is we need to really settle where we need Helguera moving forward regardless of who comes or who doesn't. He is a classy player and we need to utilize him well.

I still think he is a tad too slow to play in an-line defense. The way he got sent off in the Osasuna game was an example of how bad he could be exposed (though it was Hierro's mis-pass that was at fault).

But i also must agree that Makelele has been our most consistent player this year and should Vieira eventually come, Makelele must get his place on the field as well. It would be a shame if he didn't.

Also keep in mind that while Ivan has been shifted around alot this year and has in some cases under-performed, he still put in a blinder of a season last year at DMC and was then possibly our most consistent performer.

What do you think? Vote and comments please.

 

[Guest]

he made a sensationnal save yesturday!
you know when he put his foot very high.

 

[Superfly]

Continue to shift positions depending on our needs

I voted for the above, its always great to have versatile players and quality ones at that. We are never going to play the same formation in every match and its great to have options generally or for difficult opponents/tactical games. As to where I would like to see him develop as a player that just depends on who we buy in the summer.


lili that was some interception, brilliant. It had GOAL written all over it.

 

[labas]

I don't exactly understand this poll, but obviously answer 3. Since we have a versatile player, why bother assigning him to a specific position? This is a virtue, not a mishap Vamp:tongue::howler:
I'm sure del Bosque will always find a spot on the roster for Helguera, because he's just too superb a player, not to be included.
But it has to be said, that Makelele has totally won over the DM spot this season... I wouldn't necessarily atribute it to his major improvement, or Helguera's demise, but rather the change of the formation with Zidane in front. Helguera's options as a DM/supporting midfielder have been reasonably shortened with the way Zidane imposes himself in the center of the pitch.
But it's encouraging nonetheless, he always finds a spot for himself on the team. Hail Helguera!

And going back to Makelele, as much as I admire him for his destructive qualities, we saw yesterday on a couple of ocassions, that when going forward he doesn't feel entirely comfortable. That's that one thing that seperates him and Vieira - his big bro will spear a counter, and not neccesarily create something amazing out of it, but at least win a foul or something... Makelele has improved greatly in this field, but still he lacks that confidence about going forward.
Still, I wouldn't switch him for Vieira in a million years... not after what he's been doing for us this and last seasonroud: I adore the guy, he's such a loveable character, and simply AWESOME at what he's supposed to do.:star:

 

[Guest]

yes labas, you're right about makelele, he deserves certainely to be a starter in the french squad.
frankly, i was not sure about the issue after the first half, the pressing of the barça was so total!! our attack not efficient, the midfield houlaaaaa, for chance our defense was strong and the goalie at the heigh of the event.
and in the second half, the light came
raul, magical technician of the last pass and zizou (my hero) made the rest. the one of mac manaham (sorry for the spell, but i have prob with the english names) was superb too.

conclusion or morality :

no serve to run, you have to finish well

 

[halamad]

Well, I think Helguera is at his best as a defender. Besides, after watching last week match against Tenerife, I trust no more the Hierro-Pavon line. Thanks God Del Bosque saw it too, and put a 5-strong defence against Barca yesterday!

Anyway, he is a superb player wherever the position.

 

[Vampire Lestat]

Labas,

The point of the poll is that Helguera will develop better as a player if he continued to play in it! He would still do an admirable job if needed elsewhere, but for example he won't really evolve in defense unless we keep playing him there game after game, you get me?

 

[cliffordil]

I chose the 3rd one since you didn't provide for "Others"!

I don't know if any of you share my opinion but I think Helguera can be developed into the sort of role Mathias Sammer was playing (i.e. the Libiero type). When defense is lacking, he'll simply shift into a sweeper. When offensive, he'll push a bit up together with Makelele in the middle.
In this way, we can have a sort of a 3-men backline (more stable than 2) while not sacrificing too much battle in central midfield. The only negative point I can think of is the back 3 must master the art of offside trap to play like this...

 

[The Merengue]

I think the more valid point to think about would be whether to play that formation we played last night consistently.


Now,some of you may (but probably dont) remember this post from me way back at the start of the season.

Originally posted by Me on 1st October 2001[/i

I personally feel now people,that the diamond will never give us consistency,because we are too vulnerable at the back.I was hoping(not expecting though) the defence could hold up,but as 6 goals conceded in 3 games proves,it obviously will not.On some days,when we're hot,we will be absolutely sensational,but in between,we'll be struggling a lot.Think of the type of season Barca had last time around.That is the type of season I'd expect.On big European nights,we may be inspired and play very well and go all the way,but in LA Liga,there wont be too many occasions when the players are gonna have reason to be inspired,like trips to say,Malaga or Valladolid,and we will fail.Those are the games where the system has to protect us,and the diamond is unlikely to do that.It lends itself to sexy football,but solidity is absent and that is a must for a championship winning side.

I think this is a formation we could try now:

______________________CAsillas____________________
____

__________Campo_______Hierro________Karanka_______
__

Salgado______________________________________Carlo
s

____________________ Makelele ______________________

_______________Figo____________Zidane_____________
___

_______________Raul____________Morientes__________
__

BAsically,it is a rendition of the 3-5-2 we used in the year we won the UCL.3 Center backs give us solidity,taking away the need for the wingbacks to cover too much.It also removes the dire need for 2 defensive midfielders.We know Campo,Karanka play better as part of a 3 man defence than in a flat back 4.We also know that the last time Salgado was consitently good was when he played as a wingback in this formation.MAkelele will be the DM now.And in front of him,just behind the strikers,will be the creative hub.Figo and Zidane.Operating behind the 2 strikers,they can have the freedom to roam,but will also be charged with taking care of the wings when the fullbacks dont push up.

Back then,Helguera was injured so Hierro was my sweeper,and Solari wasn't the player he is now.But put him in place of Morientes in this lineup,and move him back to left wing with Raul as the lone striker,and you've pretty much got yesterday's lineup.Except that Guti would be replaced by Figo.The question is whether Raul should be used as a lone gun.I think the class player that he is,he can pull it off,and he's had some good games as the lone gun,even if he hasn't scored too many goals.Pavon has emerged since then,and Helguera has come back,so the backline would be Pavon-Helguera-Hierro.

Yesterday,we used that formation as basically a counter-attacking tactic.I do believe that we can adapt it to be a formation where attacking and taking controlling of the game is a priority.To me it is a more solid formation than the ones we have tried this year.

However,as I have said before,with this team,the formation can be thrown out the window if they play to best of their ability,because of the sheer class it possesses.Just that you can't rely on players to be at their best everyday,and then you need the formation to give you some protection.

 

[Gwydno]

I think the logical evolution of Helguera is towards the defense. He's clever enough not to need a bulk body to fight against the strikers, and his tactical sense is becoming brilliant. The only doubt is that he has played very good matches as a part of a defense of 5, and this is something that Real won't do very often (Fans wouldn't allow them to!!!), while when playing in a line of 4, especially besides Hierro, the experiment didn't come to a happy end. But this might be changing with the time. Also, Helguera will keep his hability to come from back to surprise rivals and score many goals.

As a midfielder, Helguera offers his technical skill, his intelligence and also not few goals. But there is one problem: nowadays Madrid plays with quite an unbalanced scheme. Zidane as a link with the strikers, Figo on the right... and two central midfielders that offer some control and tactical security. But I think the key in all this is that we have Roberto Carlos, who takes charge of all the left side. But sooner or later we'll have to put a left midfielder, too, and then Helguera will be a bit out of place. He can't be a destructive man like Makelele, not to say about being a leader like Zidane. So I think he must focus on developing himself as the future (close future! :depress: ) replacement for Hierro