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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Are we seriously going to the WC with Andre Santos in our leftback? :D



If so, with all due respect to Andre Santos, it would be nice to have at least a convincing reserve. Who should it be?

Should it be Kleber? he was in the first team for quite a while, but I don't recall anyone complaining when Dunga took him off the team and eventually stopped calling him - because he was irregular and always left spaces in his sector.

But Kleber was with the first 11 on some pretty good days in the last couple of years - he was there when we beat Chile by 3x0 in Santiago last year. Also in our 6x2 victory over Portugal in november 2008, when he had to deal with Cristiano Ronaldo. When we beat Uruguay in the Centenario by 4x0, Kleber was still on the team (and despite the glorious final score, Kleber was the weakest link in our defense that day) - but four days later we struggled to beat Paraguay by 2x1 at home, with another irritating performance at the leftback, and five days after that we had our first Confederations Cup game against Egypt, won by a tight 4x3. That game against Egypt cost Kleber the starting position, as he was utterly raped by the Egyptian winger (whose name I woefully forgot). Kleber was in an irregular form for club and country when he lost the starting position, but for a while now - perhaps extra motivated by having lost the starting position in the NT with one year to go before the WC - he has been playing really well for Internacional.



Since then Dunga has tested other players, as Andre wasn't convincing for long despite his participation in the Confederations' Cup campaign. Filipe Luis and Michel Bastos were added to the horde of leftbacks that Dunga tested, together with Gilberto, Kleber, Marcelo, Adriano (from Sevilla), Richarlyson (who was tested twice against Ireland and Sweden in early 2008), Juan (from Flamengo, who was called and played exactly once when the NT played in Rio against Bolivia :D) and poor Fabio Aurelio (who ALWAYS gets injured when he's about to get a chance at the NT - I guess it's just not meant to be).

Who should be our leftbacks? Have your say! Instead of opening a poll and then adding options as names that I forgot are mentioned, I'll cautiously wait for your nominations and then we'll make a poll.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #3
Fabio Da Silva. :pp
You mean the leftback from Manchester's Twins? :D Well, he was very promising in the youth divisions, but how often does he actually get to play? With Evra ahead of him, Fabio probably doesn't get a lot of chances. And that probably hurts his development, which is a shame.
 

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You mean the leftback from Manchester's Twins? :D Well, he was very promising in the youth divisions, but how often does he actually get to play? With Evra ahead of him, Fabio probably doesn't get a lot of chances. And that probably hurts his development, which is a shame.
Well he's arguably the more talented of the two, but Rafael (the RB who can play LB if needed) has made far more of an impact because Fabio has been cursed by injuries so far in his United career. Indeed, with United missing every single one of their defenders through injury except for Evra, Fabio would have got plenty of playing time in the past few weeks, if he himself was not injured.

He's been fantastic when fit though, in the reserves and occasionally in the first team, but the important thing is that he's firmly part of the first team squad, and when fit, probably the second choice LB. One to watch definitely.

As for the topic, what about Adriano or Fabio Aurelio? Both good, attacking left backs playing for two of Europe's biggest clubs.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
As for the topic, what about Adriano or Fabio Aurelio? Both good, attacking left backs playing for two of Europe's biggest clubs.
Fabio Aurelio's problem is that every time he was called to be tested, he got injured. Just unlucky, I guess. It's a real pity.

Adriano's problem is that Dunga's team plays a 4-man backline and Adriano didn't do so well with the defensive responsibilities required by that system, as he usually plays as more of a winger in Spain... which is a problem that many Brasilian wingbacks face: soon after they arrive in Europe, someone notices how skillful they are and they're moved upfield. It happened with Ze Roberto in Germany, with Cafu in Italy, and now it's happening to Adriano. Some of these "former wingbacks" adapt so well to their new positions that they become options for the NT at their new positions (like Ze Roberto), while a few still manage to perform well in defense even after only playing upfield for a long time (like Cafu). Unfortunately, some players don't perform so well when tested in a position that they haven't occupied since leaving Brasil, and that is Adriano's case. Recently Dunga called up Michel Bastos, another guy who was a leftback in Brasil and is now a winger in France - and Bastos wasn't terribly convincing when he played for Brasil, but maybe he'll get more chances. :undecide:

When faced with this problem of fullbacks-who-become-wingers, Luis Felipe Scolari did what I consider the logical thing and changed our NT's system to a 3-5-2 - a system that allowed us to play our wingbacks as actual wingers with proper coverage. But a lot of traditionalists in Brasil frown at the 3-5-2 as a system that doesn't "represent Brasilian football's tradition" (an objection that IMO is utter bollocks). Apparently Dunga is one of these traditionalists, as he's clearly committed to playing a 4-man backline with traditional fullbacks. In my opinion that fundamentalist commitment to a system that may not be ideal for the players we have makes the search for fullbacks far more troublesome than it should be... but if that's the plan we're going with, then we have to find a way to make it work.
 

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Very thorough and interesting response as always Garrincha. Thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:
 

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Bernard > Messi
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I thought Dunga dropped out A. Santos? When was the last time A. Santos was called? Against chile?

IMO he did to A. Santos what he did to Afonso, Jô and many others. I doubt andré will play the next WC.

Unless we hear some rumors of an English team wanting to buy him...
 

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Rei Brasileiro
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Michel Bastos did fine... average, like Andre Santos imo... everyone else sucked horribly in this position imo... heck Dani Alves was as good as anyone at LB...

Ive bene thinking about this, and I dont think its gonna come down to whos good, but rather who can defend. Thats priority #1 for Dunga
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #12
Ive bene thinking about this, and I dont think its gonna come down to whos good, but rather who can defend. Thats priority #1 for Dunga
True.

I hope Filipe Luis gets another chance, though. I like that kid's style and would like to see him getting a sequence of games. But at this late stage, and after so many tests, we can only guess which player impressed Dunga most.

So, regarding the poll - these are the names we have tested so far:

Gilberto
Kleber
Marcelo
Adriano (from Sevilla)
Richarlyson
Juan
Fabio Aurelio
Andre Santos
Filipe Luis
Michel Bastos

Of course, not all of these players have equally realistic chances. Gilberto is now an attacking midfielder at Cruzeiro (but then, what's the difference between that and a guy who plays as winger in his club like Michel Bastos?), Juan was only called up to appease the Flamenguistas for a game that was played in Rio, and Fabio Aurelio got injured again when he was about to be tested. :moan: But these were the guys who Dunga called at one time or another, unless I forgot someone. Is there someone else who should be there?
 

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If/when Fabio starts playing with some regularity, he will have a chance.
Really? Via one friendly on 3rd March 2010? The squad is announced before any further internationals are played I believe. Alex (central defender) is another one who should miss out - 2 many pull-outs/withdrawals I reckon.

Re the 3-5-2, I do not like it either - 4 at the back was good enough in 1970, for example, was it not?
 

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Michel Bastos did fine... average, like Andre Santos imo... everyone else sucked horribly in this position imo... heck Dani Alves was as good as anyone at LB...

Ive bene thinking about this, and I dont think its gonna come down to whos good, but rather who can defend. Thats priority #1 for Dunga
Right-footed left backs? No thanks.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #15
Re the 3-5-2, I do not like it either - 4 at the back was good enough in 1970, for example, was it not?
Meh, 1970 was a long time ago, and many things changed since then. I should know - I was born that year, and I've changed significantly since 1970. :D
 

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Oh, I dunno...........defensively we were pretty ordinary but for CAT at right back. Secret is to score more than the opposition and you are home and dry (and that will NEVER change!).
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #17
Secret is to score more than the opposition and you are home and dry (and that will NEVER change!).
That "secret" is a dangerous fallacy that has screwed Brasil many times. The mistaken belief that "scoring more than the opposition" is just as good as having a solid defense led directly to Paolo Rossi scoring three goals against us in 1982.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #19
Now that hurt!

So, you do not agree with me that if we score more we win?!
Of course, that's pretty self-evident.

But in the past, Brasil has fallen too many times into the myth that "outscoring the opposition" is a valid alternative to defending properly. That fallacy is sadly still a widespread belief for many Brasilian fans, and those are the fans who always want our NT's coaches to drop DMs and defenders for more forwards and strikers; because these fans firmly believe that if we field enough attackers in our team we'll win simply by outscoring the other side - the misguided notion that we'll win all matches by scores like 5x2, 9x6 and 8x4. Of course that doesn't work, because someone has to steal the ball from the opposition before it can be given to the hordes of forwards. And because if we don't defend properly, the other team can outscore us too - like Italy did on that fateful day at the Sarria Stadium.
 

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You guys are quite unlucky to have the two best RBs in the world and a lack of quality leftbacks.
 
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