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Discussion Starter #1
"No Juventus players have ever taken drugs" - Vittorio Chiusano
(Juventus president)

Okay, let's stop hiding and just bring this out into the open.

The million dollar question - did Juventus players use illegal performance enhancing drugs from 1994-1998, an era which happens to be one of the most successful in Juve's history? :googly:

The alleged case:

Under Chiusano's supervision, Juventus' team doctor Ricardo Agricola has provided phamaceutical products to his players during the 1994-1998 period. During that time Juventus won 3 scudetti, a CL, WCC, and a few others.

Now the main controversy lies on how the legal performances enhancers were given. Myself, not an expert pharmacist, I have no clue on the medical process.

Suddenly, amidst attacks from Zeman, former and current Juve players begin testifying in court (the latest being Inzaghi just last week!) - the likes of Zidane, Del Piero, Vialli, R. Baggio

Then u have Zizou claiming he took Creatine while at Juve - and let me note, he was not the only player to have used that during the 90s. If I had my World Soccer mags. next to me there's a special issue on that i'd've referred to it (1997 I think, the cover on it says DRUGS)

In effect, Juve's first "culprit" turned out to be Davids, in 2001 (?) slapped with a 6-month ban - after he tested positive for a banned steroid. (Nandrolone I think)

Then comes the bombshell - last November Ricardo Agricola is sentenced to 22 months in prison after he was found guilty of administering EPO to the club's players.

For those who are wondering - "EPO is a synthetic hormone that stimulates the body's production of red blood cells, increasing oxygen transport and endurance. It has been widely used in cycling." - Yahoo

My question - is the experimentation with various LEGAL performance enhancers, discouraged? Or better yet, prohibited? Because that is how Agricola practiced the administration of medicine - correct me if I'm wrong.

Please let's discuss this issue in a civilised manner...mainly the non-Juve fans let's refrain from any pointless remarks. We've heard 'em all. :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter #2
By the way, I started this thread because court proceedings are happening as we speak, and I can't believe nobody's talking about it in this forum.

It's not an issue of being shameful or anything, but let's just support our club, see what's going on, study facts and find out what the hell is going on?
 

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This issue is old school? we all know what the answer to this question is. I cant even believe a juve fan would bring this topic up, u know ur gonna get hammered with responses and i dont mean delicate ones.
 

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vlepnat said:
This issue is old school? we all know what the answer to this question is. I cant even believe a juve fan would bring this topic up, u know ur gonna get hammered with responses and i dont mean delicate ones.
I don't care about being hammered. I don't support drug use in Juve.
Even if it's true, then it's not Juve or the fans' fault. It's those people in charge of Juve. Otherwise Agricola will be sipping champagne at home right now and juve is shut down.

Good one, Rhizoid.
 

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Rhizoid said:
My question - is the experimentation with various LEGAL performance enhancers, discouraged? Or better yet, prohibited? Because that is how Agricola practiced the administration of medicine - correct me if I'm wrong.
Define legal performance enhancers.
 

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Cacìni said:
Define legal performance enhancers.
Anything that ****s up your body system and increases abilities of certain perceptions and senses.
 

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Of course not! Juve are a clean society that would never ever dream of using that kind of unethical and dangerous practices. :stuckup:

They don't need that. They're strong enough already, specially with their 12 men...:lala:

Cheers.;)
 

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I am more worried about how pro-Juventus factions within parliament might interfere with the case. If Juve are proven innocent--and let's hope for that--then obviously nothing should happen to the club. If Juve are proven guilty, however, then the club must take responsibility and nobody in parliament should be trying to "protect" it.
 

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Very Interesting Article Published Yesterday...

The Investigations are Spreading Through Serie A:

Italy's drugs scandal

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Judge investigates Fiorentina deaths

Health of World Cup winner and other former players adds to suspicions

Paolo Menicucci in Milan
Thursday March 3, 2005
The Guardian

An Italian judge is investigating the suspicious deaths of three former Fiorentina players amid fears that drugs their clubs allegedly gave them may have triggered their fatal illnesses.
Luigi Bocciolini, a public prosecutor in Florence, decided to open an investigation into the cases of Bruno Beatrice, who died in 1987 of leukaemia aged 39, Nello Saltutti, who died after a heart attack in 2003 at 56, and Ugo Ferrante, who died in November 2004 of cancer of the tonsils at 59.

A larger-scale inquiry was recently conducted into drug-taking in Italian football by a Turin magistrate. Raffaele Guariniello's investigation encompassed the apparently high incidence of cancer, leukaemia and a rare disease of the nervous system among players who have appeared for top Italian clubs.

Guariniello's investigation led to the conviction of the Juventus club doctor Riccardo Agricola, found guilty of administering banned substances and given a suspended 20-month prison sentence in a trial that ended in Turin last November, six years after the inquiry started. It was not suggested that Agricola caused any health problems to players.

The investigation of the Florence tribunal mostly concerns two products - Cortex and Micoren - which were not forbidden during the 70s and apparently used by some Fiorentina players and were then banned in 2000. Cortex was used to build muscles and Micoren is a heat tonic product used to increase stamina.

Guariniello, during his inquiry, interviewed Saltutti immediately after his first heart attack in 1997. "When I used to play they gave us medicines, telling us they were vitamins," the former player said after a one-hour session with Guariniello. "Before every match, for example, they dissolved Micoren on a sugar cube.

"Six months ago I had a heart attack. And the fact is that the instructions which come with Micoren state that its prolonged use might have consequences for the coronary arteries. I played about 500 matches during my career and I think I used Micoren more or less 300 times. I think what happened to me was because of having taken that. And I know that other people have had the same problems as me."

During that interview Saltutti also spoke about his former team-mate, Beatrice, who died of leukaemia, and claimed the disease had been triggered by radiation therapy used at the club.

Saltutti, before his death in 2003, had also given an interview to two Italian writers, Fabrizio Calzia and Massimiliano Castellani, which appears in their book Palla Avvelenata (Poisoned football).

"When I was playing with Milan's youth teams they were giving us everything. I don't know if it was normal but I grew up 15cm in one year, from 160cm to 175cm. In those days I was just happy to grow without thinking that it was strange."

Nobody at Milan was available to comment last night.

"When I was at Fiorentina," Saltutti continued, "I remember a friendly against Manchester United. Before the game they gave us a bottle telling us there was coffee inside. We had to drink it because it was good for us. I did not drink coffee, so I could not understand why I should have started that night. I played a great game and scored. I impressed the British press which labelled me as the 'Italian Greyhound' the day after the game.

"That 'coffee' was very good for us. We all played very well and ran twice as fast as usual. The day after, however, we were all destroyed. Since then that coffee was always in our locker room together with pills and other strange products.

"I have always had a healthy life, always training and with a controlled food regime. I was very surprised after my first heart attack in 1997."

The Florence prosecutor will also investigate the situation of other former Fiorentina players who have had health problems. Massimo Mattolini, 52, is suffering with a kidney disease and had a transplant after undergoing dialysis for 10 years. Giuseppe Longoni, 63, has vasculopathy (a disease of the veins) and has used a wheelchair since 1997; Domenico Caso, 51, has survived liver cancer; and the 1982 World Cup winner Giancarlo Antognoni, 51, suffered a heart attack last year.

The news has provoked various reactions from other former Fiorentina players. Walter Speggiorin admitted fearing for his health. "They were giving us loads of strange injections," he said. "Now I'm very scared."

Giancarlo De Sisti, the former Fiorentina captain and Italy international, stated that he never used any illegal substance. "I'm very surprised and angry for all the noise that has been made about this subject because the situation was not as serious as someone wanted to describe it. I think it's not fair to point a finger towards a whole team instead of talking about single cases. I will not allow anybody to discredit my professional career. I have already contacted my lawyers."

Fiorentina is now a completely different club after the old one went bankrupt in 2002. The doctor of the new club Giorgio Galant - professor of medicine at Florence University - is convinced of his predecessor's probity.

"The concept of doping has changed with the times. I remember there were cycling stars who were admitting to drink almost 30 coffees a day and everybody was just smiling because the caffeine was not associated with doping.

"Products like Micoren and Cortex were normally used by many people. They were not banned, they were not considered as dangerous and every football team was openly using them. I know Fiorentina's doctor during the 70s as a very scrupulous and honest doctor. He was working in a prestigious hospital in those years. If he really wanted to dope the players, he would have surely used less banal products than Micoren and Cortex."


Fiorentina's sick list
Nello Saltutti (at Fiorentina 1972-1975 ) died of a heart attack 2003

Bruno Beatrice (1973-1976) died of leukaemia 1987

Ugo Ferrante (1963-1972) died of tonsil cancer 2004

Giuseppe Longoni (1969-1973) suffered vasculopathy

Giancarlo Antognoni (1972-1984) suffered heart attack

Domenico Caso (1972-1978) suffered liver cancer

Massimo Mattolini (1974-1977) suffered kidney disease
 

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Fiorentina's problem is similar to the problem former East Germany athletes now have. Many have died and many are very ill. Modern doping is more advanced and such health issues are unlikely to appear however.

Then comes the bombshell - last November Ricardo Agricola is sentenced to 22 months in prison after he was found guilty of administering EPO to the club's players.
Is this true? I know he was found guilty of giving legal medications for improper reasons eg. giving anti depressents to otherwise apparently sound minded people. I dont recall a guilty verdict about EPO however....it was only speculation at the time from what I recall. I will try to find the thread we had here several months ago.
 

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some threads in the Juve forum about the case

EPO
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=144034&highlight=doping+Agricola

Giraudo cleared
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=147342&highlight=doping+Agricola

A quick scan of the last page of this thread indicated there was no conviction relating to EPO, and it was not presented by the prosecution. It was brought up by some 'expert' according to Glen's post, and the expert being shady in credibility. Are there new developments on the EPO issue?


some other threads also exist but they are small threads. Search if you like, I dont have time to make large posts right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Cacìni said:
Define legal performance enhancers.
Performance-enhancing drugs are substances, which are used to stimulate certain areas of the body to make an athlete excel in a certain event.

It becomes illegal if it gives the athlete an UNFAIR advantage over his/her competitors (assuming they are non-users) i.e. Steroids
 

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Discussion Starter #13
San Siro said:
Of course not! Juve are a clean society that would never ever dream of using that kind of unethical and dangerous practices. :stuckup:

They don't need that. They're strong enough already, specially with their 12 men...:lala:

Cheers.;)
what a bore.

:sleepy:
 

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If my club is indeed guilty of doping between 1994 and 1998, with substantial evidence that the players were given performance enhancing substances during the alloted time period, I would have no problems having our titles stripped from us. Of course they must have sufficient evidence for this and conclude that the Juve management acknowledged the use of drugs and had no problems with administering them. However I doubt that sufficient evidence will be found in the appeals to overturn the ruling, so I'm rather certain we will keep our titles.
 

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Andr3w said:
If my club is indeed guilty of doping between 1994 and 1998, with substantial evidence that the players were given performance enhancing substances during the alloted time period, I would have no problems having our titles stripped from us. Of course they must have sufficient evidence for this and conclude that the Juve management acknowledged the use of drugs and had no problems with administering them. However I doubt that sufficient evidence will be found in the appeals to overturn the ruling, so I'm rather certain we will keep our titles.
Yes of course u will keep ur titles because u are JUVE. They never lose. Strange isnt it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Another thing I'd like to point out, of alllll the drugs tests, how come Juve players have never been caught in UEFA games?
 

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Rhizoid said:
Performance-enhancing drugs are substances, which are used to stimulate certain areas of the body to make an athlete excel in a certain event.

It becomes illegal if it gives the athlete an UNFAIR advantage over his/her competitors (assuming they are non-users) i.e. Steroids
What I mean is this; substances like Samyr (a powerful sedative given to patients during long surgery) are legal per se, it's used commonly in hospitals for it's original purpose. When a football club gives it to their players, that's when the question of moral enters the picture. No one on earth (no one on these forums I should add, should a doctor say otherwise I'm all ears) can convince me that administring this sedative to football players is normal procedure. I believe the reason Agricola was sentenced was just this - not EPO, but inexplainable experiments with heavy medication for persons who have no use for it whatsoever.
 

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Rhizoid said:
Another thing I'd like to point out, of alllll the drugs tests, how come Juve players have never been caught in UEFA games?
cause the controls are made on different substances than, for example, diclofenac (Voltaren), which is not in the list of prohibited substances but can somehow enhance the performances.
 

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ToniSamp said:
cause the controls are made on different substances than, for example, diclofenac (Voltaren), which is not in the list of prohibited substances but can somehow enhance the performances.
erm.. so that means it's a legal substance then? So it's not bad to use it because everyone can if they want to.. :confused:
 

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numerodix said:
erm.. so that means it's a legal substance then? So it's not bad to use it because everyone can if they want to.. :confused:
In fact the problem with Juventus is not just the classic doping due to substances which are in the list of prohibited substances (EPO and some other substances), but the improper use of substances which are not prohibited but should not be used as enhancer of the performances and need medical prescription, while they got it with false prescriptions.
 
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