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Are teams abusing the "tactical" foul (in your opinion)?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 72.7%
  • No

    Votes: 6 27.3%

  • Total voters
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Discussion Starter #1
Ask yourself: how many times this year you have seen a game where one team takes a lead and turns the match into a butcher-battle? ;)

I am talking about the abuse of using the tactical foul, something that many teams have made a proffesion of (and found success actually) of.

Why do i feel its become so bad? well, its not too uncommon now to see games hit the 50 or 60+ in number of free-kicks whistled! :eek: If you count throw-ins, corner-kicks, injury faking...etc., then we are constantly getting less playing time out of the scheduled 90 minutes.

So what is the solution to the abuse of tactical fouls? i always hoped for something similar to the rule NBA uses as "team foul". The idea is if a team does over a certain number of fouls in a half, they concede a PK.

Now, i am not suggesting this isn't studied well, Football is a contact sport and players should feel they can go in for the ball freely (but cleanly), however, if we set a certain limit, midfielders will need to cut down on those small pushes/nudges/shoves/shirt-tugs that delay the flow of the game.

Now, there is still an issue with divers, who might relish on such a rule. The only solution i can think of is penalizing players who are caught to clearly dive in replays after the game. 3 match suspensions and such should do it.

Yes, initially, such rullings (Tactical foul team-foul, penalizing divers) will cause alot of commossion from players/teams thinking they were robbed, but i think on the long run, this solution (or any solution) that will help make the game flow more, and keep the ball in play more, is a plus.

What do you think?
 

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The tactical foul is a part of football, and I can live with it.
A "team foul"-rule like in the NBA would definitely change the game, I´d even say it would ruin it.
If you overdo it by committing 50 or 60 of those fouls, you´ll get about 10 yellow and maybe some red cards anyways.

As for replays: I ain´t that fond of the idea either, at least the referee´s decisions are leading to a lot of interesting discussions.

Also, football wouldn´t be half as fun without yelling at the referee, right? :)
 

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VL, i totally agree with you man, the amount of times ive seen players fouling like this is scandalous, the thing i cant understand is why video replays arent allowed to be used??I mean there could be a ref in the crowd or something who gets to see the replay and then has radio contact whit the ref and gives him his desicion, you see it in rugby for trys and stuff, also in the box the defending team is always give the benifet of the doubt, with corners and stuff the amount of pulls and tugs on the jersies is just stupid, they knock down attackers and injure them alot, now dont get me wrong attackers do the exact same but if they do they get called for it while defnders rarely do even though they could be stopping a goal

On the diving, 3 game ban is way too harsh but i can speak from experience seeing Totti playing, if he didnt dive we'd easily be in the QFs of the CL now and i aint jokin, so IMO diving is a punishment in itself, with Totti for example he has the ability to do something else but often falls looking for the foul, i hope they do bring in a rule like that but then for example if a pen was called in the last second of the game but the player dived after would they forfeit the goal???IMO divers should be punished with a yellow no matter when its decided, before or after the game but also there should be this video evidence for situations like the one with the penalty in the last second or whatever, just my opinion;)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
MxPx,

Ruin the game? hmmm, you don't think at all that getting 60 free-kicks a game is ruining the game? not even a little? :confused:
 

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If I could choose between the game as it is today, with all it´s tactical fouls, and a rule that leads to a PK after too many "team fouls", I´d go for the first option.

As you said, football is a contact sport.
Fouls are a part of it, just as throw-ins, corner-kicks, etc...
 

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Interesting topic, cabrito. :)

The way I see it, avalanches of tactical "professional" fouls are nothing but a consequence of the European encounters, especially the 2-legs games like in the UEFA Cup or right now in the Champion's League. The normal strategy for the visiting team is to keep a clear score-sheet by closing the game and winning loads of time thanks to tactical fouls when the pace is becoming too intense, goal's in the air, to break the opponent's pace, assuming this team will prevail at home in the return-leg.

Although the desease is not particular to European games only, I take this example since most games I had the opportunity to watch this season in CL were particularly abrupt, lost any fluidity at times --something you don't get to see that much in the chiampionship-- and often became a battle (not really looking like sport, where are values such as sportmanship, fair-play?) when the final whistle was about to be blown. At that stage of the match, every given foul (as mild as it might be, or as disgraceful as it is), every given provocation or bad gesture, every unblown action (divers are throwing their last energy in the battle, aiming a penalty at all costs)... all that is subject to endless vain (Blown is blown) hot discussions which suck even more play-time, to the game's expenses (and thus to the fairness and the viewers's pleasure) and to the visiting team's favour...

Maybe I'm a bit generalizing though. More than once we've seen visiting teams attacking and even going for the win (Liverpool-Barça, Bayern-Real, etc.) but as soon as you take the lead away from home, you had this thought in a corner of your mind: Keep the score as hard as you can, it's all good. And all the offensive propensions you had prior to that lead make room for an awful defensive display, even if they have to injure someone by putting the foot too high, to save the ball with the hand/arm or more generally by committing all those hidden light fouls upon the opponent. And then keeping their mouth shut and playing on when if you're lucky (rarely) or, like most of the time, imploring god and gazing ecstactically at the ref like: "What have I done? I'm innocent?". When the ref dares giving a card, be it yellow or red, the guilty player is crying like a b!tch, pretending and then it's a massive protestation towards the man in black, who isn't respected by the players like he used to anymore btw...

Mo - I don't that granting a penalty every given number of fouls would fix anything, quite the contrary. In basketball, free-shots give 1 or 2 points maximum, each time. And matchs end up with scores like 110 pts, even more at times. A drop of water in the ocean... A penalty is the ultimate resort, something a ref is granting wisely when he has no other choice. You can win games with a single penalty!... Just imagine what kind of conflicts such a measure would be bring, I know you did already but perhaps you're underestimating the (bad) effects. And that would make the ref's life even more complicated in my opinion, only a neutral machine could survive. I'm totally opposed to such an idea.

On the diving problem, I absolutely agree with you. At the condition that a ref did not see a clear couple of dives in the match (which should result in a yellow/red card depending on the frequency of the dives) the case must be brought in front of the league/UEFA/FIFA disciplinary commission. A 3 games supension is not exagerated. Diving is ruining football, I just felt like turning off the TV when I saw Roma-Barça (and if it wasn't for the great atmosphere and score, I would have done so): Totti felt to the ground like I don't know, I didn't hold the count but quite frankly, I never saw someone falling (unjustified most of the time) that much in a single match. And you know that as a Juve fan, I have high standards in that domain as Inzaghi set the pace very high. But quite frankly, diving has reached unexpected heights and FIFA should consider the problem before it spreads and grows bigger. Haven't they mention new rules for the World Cup with divers being severely punsihed?

MxPx - Why exactly are you against video evidences?

Denis - My thought is that, as much as your proposal would ensure more fairness in the refereeing, this would go against the spontaneity, against the natural of the sport. Technically, it could be done with a TV-watch and radio contacts. But ethically? Wouldn't this mean the end of referees? I mean, they would be asked to check every fould on the monitor, making their own free-judgement obsolete (and thus their need), and making the game last twice as much since they would need some time to interpret (and there you could have divergences of point of views and eventually reclamations afterwards) the data before giving their decisions. I think that the referee should stay the master on the pitch and I guess we'll have to trust his first impression. Mistakes are not going one way around like some people like to think regarding some clubs.

The problem of jersey pulling on set pieces is a recurrent one. We cannot expect a ref to see everything that happens in the penalty box and whistling as soon as a jersey is pulled appears a bit radical. I don't know, there's jersey pulling and jersey pulling, one makes the opponent look like an artuclate doll, the other is way too light and frequent to being blown, in the game's interest. The most striking example is that penalty kick Norway were granted back at the WC98 against Brazil. How many refs would have blown for such a thing? They have all their personal appreciation, their own standards and what is being perceived as deserving a foul by one is not by the other.

Once again, I'm skeptical at the live video thingie so I'd say that if a fould worthy of a dramatic penalty is commited in the last few minutes of the match, where the risk of facing divers is the most obvious, the ref has to take all his time and consult his lines-men and/or the 4th referee.

So, in conclusion, at the risk of being perceived as a conservative prick, I would stick with the actual system. But I wouldn't mind more interventionism from the football authorities when it comes to video-evidence.

Ciao. :)
 

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I guess we wouldn't have a problem with "tactical" fouls, if the referees would be good enough. And if I may say that, I don't think I have seen a game in Germany with so many fouls.

What we had last year was a foul festival between Dortmund-Bayern and it resulted in 10 yellow cards and three or four red cards, so they got their deserved punishment.

If we make NBA rules, we can also make the "old rule" happen: Three corners ---> one penalty ;).

You made a point in punishing players who dived with a video proof, but I always wanted a TV right next to the place so that the referee can take a look at all scenes right on the pitch. It would make the game much more fair.

Sure over a season everything will equalise, but why can't they make it fair in every game? Maybe a second ref would always sit in front of the TV and tell the ref who is on the pitch right away, how it really was, so no time would be left.

Another thing I might suggest is (and both ideas can work together anyway) hold on the watch when the ball is not rolling. We could reduce the time to 60-70 minutes but it would mean 60-70 minutes real play.

I'm not sure I would like it myself, so it's just an idea ;) while my first suggestion (video proof on the pitch) IMHO is a must!
 

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Im with MxPx on this, video replays would ruin the game. Do you want the referee to stop the game every 2/3 mins for 30 seconds while he converses with another referee? What if he stops the game for a free kick, and then the second ref tells him it isnt a free kick? I think it is a poorly though out idea, id much rather simply see more effort out into improving refereeing standards.

The diving issue is a tough one. Greater punishments, is perhaps one answer. But what would the punishment be? A red card perhaps but for a red card to awarded the ref would have to certain of his decision, something he rarely can be on an issue such as this. 3 game bans, based upon a video replay? Perhaps, but would a 3 game ban really matter if it meant getting a penalty in the CL final? OK, so im taking it to extremes but i think u can see my point.
 

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Exactly what I think.
I don´t really like video replays in American Football, and I don´t think it would do any good at football either.
Human decisions make the sport exciting. If you want total fairness, put players´ stats into a computer and let it generate the result. Exaggerating, I know. ;)
The only solution can be improving the refereeing standards, another point I agree on with mutu1875.

Diving belongs to football. If refs show some common sense, they can deal with it. If a player uses to dive a lot, don´t give him the benefit of doubt, show him a yellow card.

Frank, reducing the game to 60-70 minutes, jeeeez, you can´t be serious. :) What´s next, three balls on the field in order to encourage higher scores? :)

I like my game to stay the way it has been played for so many years.
Improvements, yes. Drastic changes that will look like a farce, hell no.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
MxPx,

When i suggested use of replies, i meant AFTER the game. When Raul scored by his hand last year, UEFA went to replies and deciding to give him a one-match ban and fine from that replay. They didn't eventually (and that was just, since there was no such a rule at the time), but i think there should be such a rule. Yes, the game outcome won't change, but players will be more hesitant to cheat or dive. A good example was the last Bayern-Real game, where the ref gave Salihamadzic a PK when he kicked Pavon! it won't take away the PK, but it merits punishment. Same for dives, not all dives, but outragous ones at least.

Regarding the tactical foul, perhaps a PK is harsh, perhaps. However, i still think there should be a solution to let the game flow better. If we can get 10 extra minutes in the pitch, not out of it, it would make the game much more enjoyable i believe.
 

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A couple of difficult questions here.

Video evidence:
I think Lestat's post-game video evidence is OK- good even, as some of the stuff the ref. didin't spot can be punished as it should be. There is one major problem though, which is uniformity in carrying out the disciplinary actions.

Video evidence is eleglible in serie A for instance, but it's only used when one of the big teams are in action, because that's what the media focus on. When- say Montero, Samuel or Materazzi- makes a hard foul, then the media will come to the rival clubs and ask "Do you thin he should get punished for this?2 Answer: "Yes- of course"... and the topic is hot.
When it's an Udinese-Brescia game with considerably less at stake- it won't be used. I do not recall a single incident of this kind.

It's used in England too. Patick Vieira for instance... is much more in the limelight than most other hardheads in midfield. Isn't it more than conceivable, that his actions are under more scrutiny than Stig Tøfting at Bolton ? I think it's safe to say that's so.

In conclusion- if video evidence is available and is used for ALL- then I'm very much OK with it.

Tactical fouls: As has been said- if the refs. followed the rules there wouldn't be any problems, in theory at least :).
Different leagues have different standarts. A tackle which might provoke an immediate yellow card in Italy might go unnnoticed by players, crowds and managers alike in England.
Timewasting and diving which would prompt English fans to go bunkers and throw everything they have at the player- in Italy the player will flash a smile at his oponent and the ref. and they will all go about their business as before, unless of course it's a penalty which is ALWAYS, regardless of legitimacy, wrong in Italy.

But I agree the referees ought to be more severe. Actually- the rules state yellow cards are to be given for repeated fouls (not specifying their severity), whereas red cards are to be given for the nutter tackles. The way the rules are enforced- the yellow card is used for the nutter tackles, the red card for two of them, and the players can pretty much commit as many tactical fouls as they want (God forbid they'll disrespect the ref. though, which is of course MUCH worse :rolleyes: ).
The solution is simply handing out those yellow cards when a player repeatedly makes fouls to stop the flow of the opponents game. If anyone have seen Chievo this seaosn- you will know who are the MASTERS of this art.

Ciao.
 

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Glen, I gotta ask you since I never figured it out... when Trezeguet got a two-game ban (the result of video "evidence", if I'm not mistaken) after the away game against Lazio, this ban was later removed. I never managed to find out why. Do you know?
 

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Marceljasen: Yes I do.
What we have is a loophole in both serie A and UEFA rules. It was published on many newssites actually but here goes.

When the ref. (or the ref's assistant) actually see's and acts on a foul or a perceived foul, that PREVENTS video evidence from coming into play.
In the case of Trezeguet, the referee went to ask his linesman who was signalling from his position on the line. The linesman claimed to have seen the Trez/Couto incident, and said that no fould was comitted. The ref. then acted on that, and since that is de facto a ref. decision, then FIGC cannot introduce video evidence. It goes to the "human factor". The big problem was that FIGC forgot about this themselves in the media storm that followed, and Juve of course exploited this rule, when pointing out that they couldn't do this according to the rules. The ban was removed.

It is very much parallel to what happened when Lazio's Negro (I think) was cleared from his European ban just a week or a few weeks prior to this. He made a horror tackle and was given 3 days off by the UEFA disciplinary panel, but Lazio argued, that since he had been given a yellow card in the match, then the ref. had already acted on it, and thus video evidence weren't eleglible. Negro's ban was lifted.

In both cases- the players clearly deserved punishment, but both Lazio and Juve acted within the rules, and the rules were subsequently followed.

Ciao
 

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Vampire Lestat said:


So what is the solution to the abuse of tactical fouls? i always hoped for something similar to the rule NBA uses as "team foul". The idea is if a team does over a certain number of fouls in a half, they concede a PK.

I would rather see a team minus 1 player off the field (As In Ice Hockey) for a predetermined amount of time when his team comitted an xcessive amount of fouls ... Believe me what a deterrent this would be !!!!

:smileani:
 

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While I do not like tactical fouls or diving (When they are against the teams i support!) i think things should remain as they are....part of the beauty of football is in the relative simplicity and fluidity of the game - unlike many other -especially American -team sports

However perhaps there is a place for video evidence or technology to be used to check for goals which have not been allowed because the referee thinks they haven't crossed the line, when in fact they have...
 

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Glen, thanx :)

(All of a sudden) I do remember reading some article or at least a piece of an article containing a statement by Moggi where he seemed determined to oppose the ban (and if I'm not totally constructing this in my mind, I even slightly recall that he made a reference to the, shall we call it, "breach of constitution" that led to the ban)... however, I've got so used to treating everything Moggi says as utter BS and/or Juve propaganda that I must have somehow subconsciously chosen to disregard it ;)
 

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i think that if a player makes a lot of faults for stop the other team he must to have a yellow card, i think with 3 are enought and then if he still is making the same red card. in corners there are a lot of faults and there are because ref never whistle them.

i would put another card of go to bench 5 minutes for this players than his job is stop the other team with nasty forms
 
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