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Discussion Starter #1
I was listening to Five live this morning where they were discussing the abuse of English supporters before and during the game by Spanish police.

Apparently, the home office is looking into complaints by the FA and fans after Spanish police violently treated English fans using battons and riot charges for no apparent reason. This also happened during the game and when members of the FA tried to film this going on, they were threatened by police.

An interview was held on Radion 5 with a Detective Constable who was watching the game, who himself was struck by battons. He stated that the police charged fans in a bar outside the ground before the game for no apparent reason and indescriminently struck persons with unresonable force and in his words " to incite the fans".

I have not seen any news reports of this but Radio Five have always seemed to a good source and I cant see a Detecive Constable and many other fans (including a woman who had her ankle broken) lying about something so serious.

Your thoughts??
 

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Well reports of this sort of thing have been prolific for years with England going away.
But like most countries there is an element with English NT football that thrives on conflict and thus we have a reputation for it.

But there have been many occasions in the past where fans have been peacfully drinking in bars and the riot police turn up and start trouble. I think it was actually filmed in Belgium this happening, ie the Police causing trouble amongst fans that weren't doing anything, and one camera was smashed out of the hand of a reporter by a Policeman, unlucky for him it was a transmitting camera not a tape camera.

It doesn't surprise me, but I dont think Spanish Police acted much differently to other nations police.

IF (and its a big IF) there was film evidence of this it would mean a quite delicate political incident and the Spanish government would have to issue an apology and certain members of the Police who led the attack would have to be removed.
These things have a tendancy to be brushed under the political carpet, so I doubt anything will ever come of it. Unless some of the media have evidence then it wont go away.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Reputation or not, I think English fans have been superb since the World cup in Japan, its just that if English fans had been involved in violence abroad, everyone would be reporting it and commenting on how bad the English are, when its against English fans you hear nothing!!

I cannot stereotype the Spanish but I have never had a good view of their police and I know first hand how violent and corrupt they can be and yet nothing is done. You expect the police to be there for your protection, you do not expect to be in a position where you want to be protected from them!

This is not against the Spanish public in any way, I have many Spanish friends and love spain and its people but this should not be happening in the "civilized world".
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You're embarrasing yourself now! We can all talk about the past, yours being as dirty as anyone elses in the world.

Get over it.
 

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Nico said:
You're embarrasing yourself now! We can all talk about the past, yours being as dirty as anyone elses in the world.

Get over it.
Which is the next lesson of how to behave?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Havent you got some more surfing to do? It must have taken you ages to get all those pictures!

How sad...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Then you should be able to start a thread of collages.

Enjoy..
 

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Koeman, if you feel like that, you might as well give your customs officials at the airports big bats and order them to beat the shit out of everyone showing an English birthplace on their passport.

either that or ban any Englishmen from setting foot in your country, but you won't do that will you ? no matter how hooliganish we are we spend too much money don't we ?
 

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Yes K4 put a sock in it please. If you want shall we drag up evrything that has ever happend in Spain, go into all Spanish forums asking for explanations and how crap all Spain is????????

No of course not. So please dont do it yourself.

Maybe one day you can actaully come into a forum and discuss the thread???

What are your views on the Spanish Police?
 

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Even though I agree that showing photos such as that are not helping your cause Koeman. At the same time this thread is as useless as the photos trying to prove a point. Get off it people. You all sound like a bunch of grandma's. Christ...thought the British were tougher than this? Now your picking bones with the Spanish police? I live in Toronto, Canada probably the most multicultural and honest city in the world. And our police department just recently was accused of racial profiling. This is coming from a police department where whites are probably the minority! Corruption is everywhere even in the most liberal free country you can find. I'm not defending it or advocating this behaviour, however I find it ironical how many British here have come across with this shocking victim like horror reaction to these events that have transpired the last few weeks. Even though I will not post photos of these events, I believe what Koeman is trying to point out is how conveniently quickly you all forget of your very very recent past. People who live in glass houses should not be so quick to cast stones.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I was posting something which was of significance to the English fans and more importantly deserved a thread in the English NT Section.

It has relevance, if not, someone will surely close it!

Thanks.
 

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Really, I don't understand these threads... what do you pretend? There are racists everywhere, there are violent cops everywhere, so why this obsession with Spain? Yes, what happened is shameful, we all agree, so let's end these threads, for God's sake. :lazy:
 

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Its not an obsession with Spain, If this had happened anywhere in the world, it would still be just as important.

Think about if this had happened to your fellow countrmen by English police, how would you feel? Do you think it would be worth discussing?

This has nothing to do with racism this is to do with over zelous police acts on innocent people.
 

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Mendieta said:
Even though I will not post photos of these events, I believe what Koeman is trying to point out is how conveniently quickly you all forget of your very very recent past. People who live in glass houses should not be so quick to cast stones.
England has changed beyond recognition since Heysel and Hillsbrough. I fail to see the relevance.
 

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mutu1875 said:
England has changed beyond recognition since Heysel and Hillsbrough. I fail to see the relevance.
My point is that England is still not perfect. However, many of you still go around pointing your arrogant fingers at the rest of the world the moment something like the racist chants occur or some police officers hit a few English supporters with batons. It's very ironic that when many Spaniards have made the comment that it was only a small section of Ultra Sur fans that were doing the racial chanting, how quickly the British supporters made comments such as "No way... I watched the game and it was so loud... it sounded like half of the stadium". So in the case of the England-Spain match there is no doubt to many of you that it was a very large number of Spanish fans that exhibited this behaviour and share these racist sentiments, however when it's another country's police force that beat a few English supporters, it's about how the poor English supporters are always victimized and the police are corrupt in Spain. How do we know for certain that there wasn't a few supporters who started trouble? OH, right because the media said so! :rollani:

I've been to quite a few matches in Europe and whenever I've been to a match involving an England team, many of the British supporters are loud, obnoxious and at time drunk. Although I'm not ignorant enough to say that all British supporters are all hooligans. Lastly, stating that things have changed since Heysel and Hillsbrough doesn't mean that there aren't still ass-holes who cause trouble and that may have been the case here. However, instead of taking what you hear in the news with a grain of salt, let's jump to conclusions and brand the police in Spain as corrupt and violent. To me that's moronic. Next I'll be hearing that there really was WMD in Iraq cause they said so on CNN. Sorry but I prefer to believe things with my own eyes and ears.
 

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Nico said:
Its not an obsession with Spain, If this had happened anywhere in the world, it would still be just as important.

Think about if this had happened to your fellow countrmen by English police, how would you feel? Do you think it would be worth discussing?

This has nothing to do with racism this is to do with over zelous police acts on innocent people.
Adding fuel to fire. The perfect title Nico since that's exactly what you are doing by starting this thread. Don't once again play the innocent violens, you knew what you were potentially starting by opening such a thread. We are free to discuss what we feel, however don't pretend that opening this thread has absolutely nothing to do with a certain recent deep rooted bitterness to Spain after the racial incident from the other day.
 

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Mendieta said:
My point is that England is still not perfect. However, many of you still go around pointing your arrogant fingers at the rest of the world the moment something like the racist chants occur or some police officers hit a few English supporters with batons. It's very ironic that when many Spaniards have made the comment that it was only a small section of Ultra Sur fans that were doing the racial chanting, how quickly the British supporters made comments such as "No way... I watched the game and it was so loud... it sounded like half of the stadium". So in the case of the England-Spain match there is no doubt to many of you that it was a very large number of Spanish fans that exhibited this behaviour and share these racist sentiments, however when it's another country's police force that beat a few English supporters, it's about how the poor English supporters are always victimized and the police are corrupt in Spain. How do we know for certain that there wasn't a few supporters who started trouble? OH, right because the media said so! :rollani:

I've been to quite a few matches in Europe and whenever I've been to a match involving an England team, many of the British supporters are loud, obnoxious and at time drunk. Although I'm not ignorant enough to say that all British supporters are all hooligans. Lastly, stating that things have changed since Heysel and Hillsbrough doesn't mean that there aren't still ass-holes who cause trouble and that may have been the case here. However, instead of taking what you hear in the news with a grain of salt, let's jump to conclusions and brand the police in Spain as corrupt and violent. To me that's moronic. Next I'll be hearing that there really was WMD in Iraq cause they said so on CNN. Sorry but I prefer to believe things with my own eyes and ears.
Look mate, I'm a Blackburn fan and I'm sure as you well know, a couple of our fans were accused (and one convicted) of racism towards opposition black players. I experienced how the media sensationalise these things out of all proportion and how everyone assciated with that club suddenly becomes a racist too because of the actions of a small number of individuals. I really do feel for all the geninuine Spanish fans out there who are just as much victims as anyone else. We're in the same boat - I agree with 75% of what you're saying

However, posting images of Heysel is not only irrelevant, but in my view distasteful. And I fail to see what this "your fans are worse than ours" argument is going to achieve. Both countries need to look hard at the bahaviour of thier own fans and act to stamp out this kind of trouble. At the moment though, it appears to me at least as though only 1 of the FAs concerned is actively trying to reduce this problem.
 

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mutu1875 said:
However, posting images of Heysel is not only irrelevant, but in my view distasteful. And I fail to see what this "your fans are worse than ours" argument is going to achieve. Both countries need to look hard at the bahaviour of thier own fans and act to stamp out this kind of trouble. At the moment though, it appears to me at least as though only 1 of the FAs concerned is actively trying to reduce this problem.
I agree about the images mutu1875 completely. I even stated in my first posting in this thread that posting them doesn't help Koeman's cause. And I also disagree with racism fully and I believe it should not go unpunished. My only problem has been with the generalization's made, not by you, but by others on xtratime.
To me making generalizations when you don't have all the facts is as bad as chanting racial slurs, it all stems from ignorance and shouldn't exist.

Cheers.
 
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