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Discussion Starter #1
Dybala to get his first start of the season. And Bernardeschi too.

JuveSquad.jpg
 

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Odd lineup the one Pirlo chose. A few days ago I was listening to a well known radio sporting channel and when talking about Pirlo an also well known journalist said: "He is no more a player, he is a coach. Coaches do not have to surprise, they must do things in the simplest way".
 

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Yeah, watched bits and pieces of the first half, Verona were really bringing it to Juve. Perhaps Pirlo expected them to lay low and try to soak up Juve pressure, and only hit on counters, but they were pressing high and moving many players close to Juve's box when posession was gained.

1-1 now, Kulusevski for Juve.
 

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Verona wasting time, with good assistance from a few Juve players.
 

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Verona rides off the storm, finishes 1-1. Kulusevski argues about his yellow with the ref, should have just ignored Faraoni. All he gained from giving him attention was waste of 90 seconds and a yellow card.
 

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Pirlo has no idea what he is doing, but really how brilliant of an idea is to bring a rookie coach and 6 new players without a proper preseason? Its like we decided to write off this season, but then why keeping Ronaldo? At this point the obvious solution is to stop daydreaming and get rid of Pirlo, but i have no confidence that the management can make the right deciosion anymore.
 

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Agreed. Our management is completely inept really. Atleast rest of the league will appreciate their incompetence, no way this is a gonna grow into a 10th scudetto season. Really just clueless in every way on coaching level, try random complicated shit every game and just just hope things figure themselves out.
 

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I only saw highlights. To me, it looks like you were unlucky. A number of very good runs and chances. Denied twice by the crossbar (Cuadrado shouldn't have blasted it) and a goal ruled out for the smallest offside. For Verona's goal, I have no idea what Bonucci was thinking...why was he nowhere?

I don't see how Pirlo is clueless because of it. It looked like you were putting Verona to the sword and with the smallest of differences, it could have ended 3-1 to you.
 

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Pirlo has no idea what he is doing, but really how brilliant of an idea is to bring a rookie coach and 6 new players without a proper preseason? Its like we decided to write off this season, but then why keeping Ronaldo? At this point the obvious solution is to stop daydreaming and get rid of Pirlo, but i have no confidence that the management can make the right deciosion anymore.
We can all question Pirlo and his appointment (i think its down to Agnelli eventually, he wants to find our Pep/Zidane and Pirlo fits that idealogy). Time will tell if its a hit or miss, but i dont see what is the problem with signing 6 players? They are not all starters, and we had plenty players go, in fact 7 players left according to wikipedia. Its not like we have 6 new starters every week. Injury issues are not helping currently. Especially De Ligt and Sandro missing. And Ronaldo COVID. Bayern signed 9 players this mercato for example. So its hardly exception. Plenty other clubs with many new faces.

I know you might say its about new players not having time to settle in but most people here thought Pjanic was finished and Matuidi was 33. We can question if the signings we made are good enough but i dont see the big deal in 6 new faces. Also according to wikipedia its 5 new faces cause Mandragora got loaned back to Udinese. And if we had kept those players then the same people here would be saying how much longer are Pjanic and Higuain going to be around? And all clubs have the same issue with the COVID situation in terms of short preseason.

The main question really should be if Pirlo is good enough. But i dont think there were many good options to pick from. Sarri had to go. I dont know if Agnelli ego stopped him re-appointing Allegri. With the current situation it was not easy to get the right coach. I doubt people here would have been thrilled to stick with Sarri. You wanted them to appoint Spalletti?

Im sorry if i miss out of something cause i have been busy and im not really following the transfer market or even games much lately. But if we question the signings we made we cant underestimate the impact the crisis has had financially. Didnt Juve even drop half of the salaries during the pandemic? Financially most clubs suffered losses. 1 leg CL games instead of regular 2 in the knockouts, long break without tv money potentially etc etc. These things where going to affect if we question for example if the players we brought in are good enough, as in, when do we get the same level of midfield we had with Pirlo, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio.

Going further we can all hate on playing back 3 but Sandro is injured. Isnt he like our only LB in the squad. And when your starting CB is also out then maybe Pirlo is extra cautious and playing back 3. Although didnt he even hint at his first press conference he likes back 3. Not surprised, he played his last 3-4 years in that system for Juve and Italy. I hope he doesnt stick with it when our starting CBs are back. Dont think back 3 really works anymore if you want to win games both league and europe.


I would have kept Costa over Bernadeschi though, time has shown that guy is just clueless. Wouldnt be here if not italian. And should Cuadrado really still be starting. I know Chiesa suspension didnt help.

So you end up missing 4-5 starters in Ronaldo, Chiesa, Chiellini, De ligt and Sandro. That will affect any coach.
 

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The problem is the combination of Pirlo being an inexperienced coach and having a lot of new additions which we need to find how best to utilise.

This nonsense with Berna on the left is terrible, and Pirlo should have seen enough of it in training to know it was a bad idea and a non-starter.

It seems like a lot of games with him are games where there are some bright spots but end up being close and we end up not winning. We've now won only 2 in 5 games (1 win against Napoli was a forefeit) in Serie A. At some point if things don't improve significantly and soon, he's going to be out.

It was a bad decision because he literally has no coaching experience, Conte at least had some experience with Bari, Atalanta and Siena.

Pirlo was basically going to take over the primavera and then somehow got promoted to first team coach without any coaching experience at any level, let alone at senior level.

It's expecting too much from him that he's going to learn everything he needs to know on the job.

I like this squad, i think we needed to rejuvenate and we did that successfully. But it reminds of when Marotta arrived and brought Del Neri with him. Marotta's squad changes were for the most part correct, it was just the coaching choice which was wrong.\

Again, Paratici not making good decisions. If this was Agnelli's idea he needed to be firm enough to push back and say this was not the time to take a risk on him, especially with Ronaldo still on the payroll and with Pirlo having zero coaching experience.

Guardiola coached the C and B teams for Barca before he got promoted, and Zidane coached the Castilla at Real, and was an assistant to Mourinho and Ancelotti before.

All of that adds to your ability to take on the top job once you get it even if it's a bit premature.

We really have no indication that Pirlo was going to be more Pep and Zidane than any of the many ex-great players who ended up being terrible coaches.
 

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For Verona's goal, I have no idea what Bonucci was thinking...why was he nowhere?
Bonucci is a defensive liability the way he has always been out of BBC (and indeed even in the BBC but someone else covered him) but as regards the goal the first mistake was made by Bernardeschi with that clumsy pass which was easily intercepted and started the counter attack of Verona, then it was Danilo who should have closed on Favilli.

Juventus were surely unlucky but the starting lineup was crazy and another coach would have easily won this game with or without luck, simply by putting the right players in the right positions, with the right tactical plan. Allegri was blamed for his tactical plans but it was exactly the kind of tactical plans which easily brought 3 points in games like this one.
 

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Going further we can all hate on playing back 3 but Sandro is injured. Isnt he like our only LB in the squad. And when your starting CB is also out then maybe Pirlo is extra cautious and playing back 3. Although didnt he even hint at his first press conference he likes back 3. Not surprised, he played his last 3-4 years in that system for Juve and Italy. I hope he doesnt stick with it when our starting CBs are back. Dont think back 3 really works anymore if you want to win games both league and europe.


I would have kept Costa over Bernadeschi though, time has shown that guy is just clueless. Wouldnt be here if not italian. And should Cuadrado really still be starting. I know Chiesa suspension didnt help.

So you end up missing 4-5 starters in Ronaldo, Chiesa, Chiellini, De ligt and Sandro. That will affect any coach.
The 3-man defense would be an improvement to a 4-man defense if Cuadrado has to be the right back in a 4-man defense.
Obviously Danilo in the 3-man defense and Bernardeschi wide on the left are a consequence of the injuries but Juventus is the kind of clubs you'd expect to have 2 reliable options in every position.
 

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I actually somewhat disagree. I think not having established midfield is massive. Arthur is coming from a different league. Also we spent 72 m euros on him. Thats a lot of money for relatively unproven or unknown player imo. The fact Barca got rid of him when guys like Busquets are starting to age seems odd.
Mckenzie started for a Schalke side finishing 12th in Bundesliga. Suddenly good enough for starting here?
Im not sure Ramsey should be starting for a club like Juventus. His 29. What has he achieved prior to that. Arsenal didnt even make top 4 for like last 3 years. Zidane went to Madrid at that age. Last year it might have made some sense as a free transfer cover for either Pjanic or Dybala but starter? Also is Pirlo giving Bentancur cold eye? You would think his a type of player Pirlo would actually thrive on. Plenty of people criticized the likes of Pjanic and Matuidi in the past but we now lack that experience in midfield. Then they keep Khedira lol. I would have kept Matuidi over Khedira thats for sure. Think not just XI but dressing room. Mckenzie comes from Schalke and is a top dog now here? Noone to even look up to.

De sciglio loaned out while not amazing is at least a natural fullback defender seems another odd decision. Cuadrado is not a fullback and when Sandro is injured we now even lack a Padoin type of player who could play that odd game there. Liverpool for example plays Fabinho in defense with Van Dyike injury, when he is now established midfielder when all fit.

I realized that we now have injury crisis at the back going into Barca games. Who do we even play there now?

Certain people here gave Lichsteiner the shit but we have failed to find a long term replacement for him. Alves was always short term when he was already 33 not to forget all the bs when he opened his mouth. I cant even remember the name of the other brazilian guy we signed from Inter or was it Barca (loan from Inter). Danilo was Madrid backup for years. Never really saw wc quality. From what i remember he was one of the main guys blamed in this forum when Madrid lost a game.
 

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Arthur was swapped for Pjanic, so mentioning his price tag is kind of irrelevant. The additional money we paid was not material to this conversation, the net difference was 17m (including net of 5m in bonuses). The reason they got rid of Arthur was financial, by selling him for a significant value it boosted their financial statements for the year.

Ramsey would start for most EPL teams, the only reason he didn't get many offers was due to his injury problems.

I like all our transfers to be honest, it's Pirlo who's the clear problem.

As Toni rightfully said, he's losing games like this with stupid tinkering whereas Allegri and even Sarri to a lesser extent would just make the logical and rational decisions and just let our superiority take care of things on the field.

By Pirlo using this bizarre back 3 line-up and trying to re-invent the wheel with Berna on the left, it's not getting the job done and needlessly losing us valuable points.

What ultimately makes this an inherently moronic decision to appoint Pirlo is that not only is he not going to get us over the hump in the CL, we're also jeopardising winning the Scudetto again this season as well.

So we're not just stalling we're going to go backwards as well.
 

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I only saw highlights. To me, it looks like you were unlucky. A number of very good runs and chances. Denied twice by the crossbar (Cuadrado shouldn't have blasted it) and a goal ruled out for the smallest offside. For Verona's goal, I have no idea what Bonucci was thinking...why was he nowhere?

I don't see how Pirlo is clueless because of it. It looked like you were putting Verona to the sword and with the smallest of differences, it could have ended 3-1 to you.
They probably were. but the bigger issue is that if Napoli didn't foreit that game then Juve might be with one single win in 5 games. that is one bad start of the season. CR can still turn this around for them though.
 

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Arthur was swapped for Pjanic, so mentioning his price tag is kind of irrelevant. The additional money we paid was not material to this conversation, the net difference was 17m (including net of 5m in bonuses). The reason they got rid of Arthur was financial, by selling him for a significant value it boosted their financial statements for the year.

Ramsey would start for most EPL teams, the only reason he didn't get many offers was due to his injury problems.

I like all our transfers to be honest, it's Pirlo who's the clear problem.

As Toni rightfully said, he's losing games like this with stupid tinkering whereas Allegri and even Sarri to a lesser extent would just make the logical and rational decisions and just let our superiority take care of things on the field.

By Pirlo using this bizarre back 3 line-up and trying to re-invent the wheel with Berna on the left, it's not getting the job done and needlessly losing us valuable points.

What ultimately makes this an inherently moronic decision to appoint Pirlo is that not only is he not going to get us over the hump in the CL, we're also jeopardising winning the Scudetto again this season as well.

So we're not just stalling we're going to go backwards as well.
Fair enough about Arthur then, i just took the price tag from wikipedia.

Plenty average players starting for epl teams, doesnt say anything to me that. The quality of that league has gone down massively. Thats why he would start. Look at the state of clubs like Man Utd and Arsenal, cant even get to CL let alone compete for league titles. Its not just because Liverpool and Man City have been superior. Or that "the league is so competitive". Leipzig trashed Tottenham 4:0, Liverpool lost to Atletico, not because of some defensive masterclash but shipping in 4 goals on aggregate, Chelsea lost to Bayern by 3 goal margin both legs. And before we come with the COVID excuses, those games where 2 leg ties played Feb-March before everything was stopped.

Do you really think Ramsey is the answer to our CL problems? A 30 year old ex Arsenal player who won couple of Fa Cups, and was key part of a team who didnt even make top 4 last 3 years? I saw enough last season to realize he simply doesnt influence games enough. Like i said, as a squad depth i dont even mind him honestly. But as a key starter? That for me is a concern. And for us he is good enough despite injury history? When he as you stated wasnt for same reason for the rest of the epl.

Also lets be correct still, we havent lost a game yet.

And im by no means Pirlo fan, there are certain signs he could be another Ferrara, but right now the tinkering is FORCED because we have basically one LB in the squad. That youngster he started was it first game or against Roma seems completely forced. Thats why i even question getting rid of De Sciglio. The fact im here crying over average player like that, but we have no LB till Sandro is out. So thats why we end up playing a back 3. FORCED. And of course it gets worse when De Ligt and Chiellini are out. God i hope Demiral comes good cause we have to also now start to think and accept that Chiellini shouldnt start games soon if not already cause he is 36. And as expected, bringing Bonucci back was a mistake.
 

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Fair enough about Arthur then, i just took the price tag from wikipedia.

Plenty average players starting for epl teams, doesnt say anything to me that. The quality of that league has gone down massively. Thats why he would start. Look at the state of clubs like Man Utd and Arsenal, cant even get to CL let alone compete for league titles. Its not just because Liverpool and Man City have been superior. Or that "the league is so competitive". Leipzig trashed Tottenham 4:0, Liverpool lost to Atletico, not because of some defensive masterclash but shipping in 4 goals on aggregate, Chelsea lost to Bayern by 3 goal margin both legs. And before we come with the COVID excuses, those games where 2 leg ties played Feb-March before everything was stopped.

Do you really think Ramsey is the answer to our CL problems? A 30 year old ex Arsenal player who won couple of Fa Cups, and was key part of a team who didnt even make top 4 last 3 years? I saw enough last season to realize he simply doesnt influence games enough. Like i said, as a squad depth i dont even mind him honestly. But as a key starter? That for me is a concern. And for us he is good enough despite injury history? When he as you stated wasnt for same reason for the rest of the epl.

Also lets be correct still, we havent lost a game yet.

And im by no means Pirlo fan, there are certain signs he could be another Ferrara, but right now the tinkering is FORCED because we have basically one LB in the squad. That youngster he started was it first game or against Roma seems completely forced. Thats why i even question getting rid of De Sciglio. The fact im here crying over average player like that, but we have no LB till Sandro is out. So thats why we end up playing a back 3. FORCED. And of course it gets worse when De Ligt and Chiellini are out. God i hope Demiral comes good cause we have to also now start to think and accept that Chiellini shouldnt start games soon if not already cause he is 36. And as expected, bringing Bonucci back was a mistake.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not a fan of the Ramsey transfer. I think we have gone overboard with the Bosman signings recently, Ramsey typifying that. He doesn't really fit the way we play and he's impossible to offload because we've given him such an obscene salary that no club will be willing to match. We can't even rescind his contract because he won't agree to that, he knows he will never get this salary elsewhere.

So i'm not a fan of the transfer, but i still think Ramsey is a good player. Ramsey is a lot better than players starting for EPL teams nowadays, yes i can't argue that the quality has gone down recently but even so, it's still a benchmark worth mentioning and considering.

What i object to is giving every good player on a free transfer obscene money without looking at whether we really need them or not.

We don't need Ramsey, he doesn't really fit the way we play. But he is a very good player. A team like Man Utd, Chelsea and even Arsenal could really use a player like him.

I remember when he left England to sign with us, a lot of British commentators were angry that they let someone of his quality leave for Italy. I don't think anyone did that for Smalling for example.

I understand, but you're Pirlo, you're the coach, why did you allow them to loan Pellegrini to Genoa, AND loan De Sciglio to Lyon?

Shouldn't you speak up? If Frabotta is good enough to keep over them at left back, but somehow not good enough for us to play 4 at the back, then obviously there's a problem.
 
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