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Go for 400, Raúl!
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So we now know that the Cantera is dead...

Seven players coming from our youth system played last wednesday against Valladolid.
Thay also had their chances in the first leg, a match that I hardly can remember anything about, so it was a boring waste of time.
In the halftime, Luxemburgo replaced three canteranos (Portillo, Javi García and Jurado, none of them showed anything important).
Since Florentino Pérez reached the Presidency, only Raúl Bravo and Pavón can say he's been promoted from Real Madrid B to the first squad. Maybe Mejía, but how many chances he's been allowed?
From the home-made players that were usual starters with our team, we have:
- Pavón: always threatened with the arrival of any Walter Samuel
- Raúl: at this pace, he will soon be our left backwing. Every starlette we have signed has reduced his area of playing
- Casillas: We all know how he's been mistreated
- Guti: Maybe when Zidane dies at 115, he will be given some minutes in his natural position.

Let's be true: there has never been a Zidanes & Pavones policy, simply because the youth system has been left aside. Because of Ramón Martínez, the man who supossedly takes care of the boys, we are losing one of our prides: growing up our own stars.

Now Roberto Carlos charges against Arbeloa and co, saying they must be hungry when playing, when the fact is that he didn't look exactly like being starving. It is not the boys' fault. They have been misleaded for too many years.
I only hope there will be a remedy soon.
If Real Madrid B does not promote to 2nd division soon, we can't expect that these players mature.

For now, the Cantera looks dead... or rather killed

PS: I have mistyped the thread's header. Could any of the mods ("Se" we now...) please correct it? Thx
 

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For now, the Cantera looks dead... or rather killed
They were born dead.
Youll find better and more talented players at the streets of Rio or
the fields of Patagonia.
I dont have time to be concern
about La Cantera right now, they havent shown any promise
lately, Jurado, Mejia, Pavon and even Portillo are not
RM material for me.

Real Madrid s current problem lies in the team selection
Owen and Solari should start inmediatly.

after solving that, we should sell and buy wisely,
selling will be the difficult part.
maybe the russian will give us a hand.
 

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Boti Boti Boti
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The cantera players themselves coming in haven't shown that they have what it takes to be starters at that level.
I think that there is a problem in the youth development system.
Don't forget that since Perez took over, the 14 year olds would be 19 years old now, the 16 years olds would be 21 now etc... so some of these kids should be good enough to be in the first team under normal circumstances in a big club. It's not just a point of them not getting Primera experience to get better, but it really looks like these kids just aren't good enough for the roles in the first place. I don't really want to mention Barça, but I have to in this case for a comparison... players like Iniesta, Puyol, Xavi, Messi etc... (hell even Gabri), have made the jump and played in La Liga and CL without looking out of place.
It can't be just that the talent in RM's youth setup just dried up suddenly, because as I mentioned, 5 years is a looong time in which players have to develop. But I really don't know much about what Perez has or hasn't done wrong for the youth teams and if it is completely his fault. All I see is that the results aren't there since he took over.
The best player to come out since he has been in charge was Portillo, and even he won't displace any of the galactico forwards. However to have nobody good enough to take over in the much needed defensive midfield and defense positions is really weird. For the lack of talent to happen, either Perez has not put enough importance and emphasis in training the kids, or he has totally ignored the scouting system... again I'm not really familiar with what he has or hasn't done, so I can only guess from seeing the results.
 

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I don't know what's going on in Madrid's youth system, but one thing it is for sure, it's not working. I always recall that Madrid has had a powerful youth system and Primera Division is full of good players formed in the Ciudad Deportiva: Urzaiz, Eto'o, Cañizares, Mista, Victor, Javi Guerrero, Valdo, García Calvo, etc.

Roberto Carlos was unfair blaming the kids (in fact, because he's the main guilty in Valladolid's goal), but he said something that everyone know. I don't know if it is lack of motivation, which would be really strange, or lack of quality. In the Madrid press, espcially As and the crew of Cadena Ser, talk shit about Ramon Martinez.

Can anyone tell me which are the sins of the man? The results are there. There's no player in Madrid who raises enough expectations. But which are the causes of all this? It's true that there's no space in the first team for them, since there's a clear division between the Golden Balls and the reserves and the B team players. But in any case, whenever I see a new supposed talent like Jurado, Mejia, Javi Garcia, etc. I don't see anything brilliant.

Gwydno talked about the necessity of promoting the B team to Segunda A, but is it the problem? I mean, Barcelona B is also in Segunda B and there are many players that are doing fine in the first team (Valdés, Jorquera, Oleguer, Damia, Iniesta, Messi... are players that play more or less regularly in the first team in a good level). I also think that the Group III is harder than Madrid B's group for geographycal reasons. It's true that playing in Segunda A would be better for the development of the players, but is it the solution?

I guess that everyone recalls the selling of the grounds of the Ciudad Deportiva. Where are the youth cathegories now? Do they play in Las Rozas too? I know that Florentino is building the new one, but don't you think that the lack of facilities has been a big problem for the development of this players? Does Real Madrid look out of the city/region for new talents? If anyone knows about what's going on there, I would appreciate your comments.
 

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None of the players coming through have shown they have the quality to fly the flag for us, so I wouldnt say they giving them the chances is the problem. there's no point in playing a guy who's not quality.

the problem for me is why the players coming through are not of a sufficient standard. That is what should be looked into. Casillas will get his deal I would expect. Guti, despite what anyone might say, is just not a top quality player, he is at best a very good utility player. Raul's form has dipped and that is why he suffers in the team. If he returnst to being the old Raul nobody would take his place. Pavon is absolute crap. A useless player.

Raul Bravo for some reason isn'/t the same player since he came back from his loan at Leeds. While players like Minambres, Jurardo, Mejia are probably going to end up being journeymen because despite of how they were built up, when they were given the chance, that is about how much true potential they showed.
 

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i actually think were unfair to the guys. Everyday they travel to training, everyday they do it in their spare time usually without getting any money. They do it just for passion.

The problem is that the guys who should bring us the Copa usually play 2 leagues lower. And suddenly they have all the pressure to save us and when they cant they are blamed.

Its like standing at a big canyon without the bridge. The lower the league and experience and the higher the pressure, the bigger the canyon. They train jumping but only exceptional jumpers can. Well we may not have exceptional jumpers yet but we need to continue to search them and make them ready to jump.

But we can also build them a bridge, at least a piece, with letting him collect experiences with other clubs. But I wonder why the highest talents at the time like Juanfran and Jurado are not loaned out? The guys play so seldom for the first teams its just not fair to give him all the blame. Also when Mejia is not given a chance in the first team he should go on a loan as well.

I heard so much of german teams who should have made contracts with RM for getting youngsters on a loan, like 1860 Munich, but never i heard anything like that happen actually.

As someone mentioned the promotion of RM B which was necessary, im actually not sure if the club wants a promotion of RM B to Segunda as its a professional league, with non-eu restrictions and way higher wages. So the guys are not responsible for what the club management does or does not.

But we also must give the biggest talents the chance to jump...
 

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I agree with you La Blanca.

I don't think that it's fair to judge the youngsters by just few games. First of all, I think that Valladolid knocking us out from the Cup wasn't their fault, there were just too much RMB players on the pitch at once. You can't expect to see almost full 11 of young players succeeding in front of 45 000 spectators... Just watched the match from video and they were almost literally shaking and nervous. Controlling your feelings in this kind of situations come with experience and it isn't best place to get the experience then you're playing for a passage to the next round.

And what can you do, when there is too much talent in the first team. It is really hard to give minutes for the players from la cantera, because there just isn't room for them. You say that we need wider material so that there would be good choises on the bench also. It is quite interestin that when the coach plays with the best 11, you moarn that he and he should be in the line-up... and when he and he is in the line-up, you'd rather see your youngsters on the pitch. And when the youngsters finally gets some minutes, you absolutely thrash them and say they aren't worth of the clubs chrest on their chest.

It is quite sad that we can play with only 11 players on the pitch at the same time.

None the less, I do agree that Real Madrid should try to get the best cantera players a loan contract, but I also see, why they do not do it. Fielding the best in segunda B could bring them promotion this season, which, by the way, has been a really good for them.

You say that Real Madrid B isn't playing well? Remember that they are leading the Segunda B 2nd group, even though they have had their rough patch of the season in last few games. Also remember that Real Valladolid plays on the higher level than Real Madrid B.

I still believe in La Cantera, remember, of the canteras, Real Madrid has the most players in different teams in La Liga. Almost every team has one that has originated from Real Madrid's cantera.
 

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I think Javi Garcia is going to be a very good player for us. He's just too green right now to play in the first team.
From what I've seen of Mejia, he looks a useful player. He's definitely better than Pavon and Bravo but unfortunately he doesn't have the build for playing as a CB - which means he's stuck as backup to our best defender Salgado.
 

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Quirez killed Portillo and the club are killing Juanfran!

Change the thread title to REAL MADRID ARE DEAD, would not be too far from the truth!
 

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Tony Montana said:
Quirez killed Portillo and the club are killing Juanfran!

Change the thread title to REAL MADRID ARE DEAD, would not be too far from the truth!
Actually, I am no longer so pessimistic. I think we are going to have a much better 2005 than we did 2004. The Copa loss doesn't hurt me at all, just like winning it wouldn't have made me too happy. Its not the title to save the season for Real Madrid.

I'd much rather concentrate on the Champions League and see how far we can push Barca in the league. As long as we can keep the gap to around the 5 point margin till they come visit us in April, nothing is decided.
 

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Is Raul actually considered home made?
I mean, I'm a little confused. I don't think he came from the youth squad? I heard he came from... some other team.. Athletico?
 

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People who believe we should have youth players on the senior squad are essentially forgetting something: RM no longer has the luxury to do that.

If you haven't noticed, fans are now demanding wins every week. Every single loss to whatever team is deemed a major failure and brings on calls for someone's head. That being the case, how can a coach field a youth player?

Possibly the best youth system in Europe is Ajax, and that team accepts that it will not win the league every year. So they don't really mind if they field squads of young players because it is for their future and they have room for error/losses.

Maybe if RM fans were more willing to accept a few non-winning seasons, then you can lay the groundwork for a better youth system. Certainly RM has the name to attract budding footballers so that won't be a problem. Until then though, most concentration and resources have to go to the senior squad.
 

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Xue said:
Is Raul actually considered home made?
I mean, I'm a little confused. I don't think he came from the youth squad? I heard he came from... some other team.. Athletico?
yes he came from Atletico after they closed their youth sections (and thats why its a big mistake if we would do that too) but was still 2 years with our Cantera.
 

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The Copa must be worth relatively no money to RM. Otherwise, from across the Atlantic I cannot understand fielding a 7/11 youth team while holding out at least 5 players making (?) over $6M US. I NEVER hear that the few "cantera" names who play fairly often ever play very well. Thus, was RM not simply arrogant to fully expect to win the game even after putting in some stars late? I can understand RM's strategy better if Lux primarily was interested in testing the youth players together - which may have been the case - to see who might stand out since he does not know their play. Otherwise, the lineup seems odd for a team that proposes that it win "everything" and a new coach who shouldn't want to lose anything so early in his tenure.
 

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SambaLosAngeles said:
The Copa must be worth relatively no money to RM. Otherwise, from across the Atlantic I cannot understand fielding a 7/11 youth team while holding out at least 5 players making (?) over $6M US. I NEVER hear that the few "cantera" names who play fairly often ever play very well. Thus, was RM not simply arrogant to fully expect to win the game even after putting in some stars late? I can understand RM's strategy better if Lux primarily was interested in testing the youth players together - which may have been the case - to see who might stand out since he does not know their play. Otherwise, the lineup seems odd for a team that proposes that it win "everything" and a new coach who shouldn't want to lose anything so early in his tenure.
Finally... someone who sees it!!! You said it all, Copa is no money, it is prestige, but this question is the key point:

"was RM not simply arrogant to fully expect to win the game even after putting in some starts late?".

This match made us know 2 things:
1) the level of the RM kids is quite low (and this is not new)
2) Luxemburgo underrated Valladolid. Maybe he's not guilty, maybe Sacchi, Butragueño or Florentino told him to play with reserves, but the fact is the same.
 

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As I can't view any games, maybe it's true that the blind "see" best. (smile). That aside, I've never kick a futebol in my life, but even I wouldn't be afraid of Bravo and Pavon - from what I've heard of them - with the ball at my feet.
 

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SambaLosAngeles said:
As I can't view any games, maybe it's true that the blind "see" best. (smile). That aside, I've never kick a futebol in my life, but even I wouldn't be afraid of Bravo and Pavon - from what I've heard of them - with the ball at my feet.
It's not about watching the games. It's about the reason of why Luxe played with the subs and IMO you hit the point.
 

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SambaLosAngeles said:
The Copa must be worth relatively no money to RM. Otherwise, from across the Atlantic I cannot understand fielding a 7/11 youth team while holding out at least 5 players making (?) over $6M US. I NEVER hear that the few "cantera" names who play fairly often ever play very well. Thus, was RM not simply arrogant to fully expect to win the game even after putting in some stars late? I can understand RM's strategy better if Lux primarily was interested in testing the youth players together - which may have been the case - to see who might stand out since he does not know their play. Otherwise, the lineup seems odd for a team that proposes that it win "everything" and a new coach who shouldn't want to lose anything so early in his tenure.
Its all about priorities and it was a risky strategy but one that makes sense as far as im concerned. I would have done the same thing and I dont see where arrrogance comes into it. Last season with our super thin squad we were pushing on all fronts and ended up with nothing.
 

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Go for 400, Raúl!
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Discussion Starter #19
SambaLosAngeles said:
The Copa must be worth relatively no money to RM. Otherwise, from across the Atlantic I cannot understand fielding a 7/11 youth team while holding out at least 5 players making (?) over $6M US. I NEVER hear that the few "cantera" names who play fairly often ever play very well. Thus, was RM not simply arrogant to fully expect to win the game even after putting in some stars late? I can understand RM's strategy better if Lux primarily was interested in testing the youth players together - which may have been the case - to see who might stand out since he does not know their play. Otherwise, the lineup seems odd for a team that proposes that it win "everything" and a new coach who shouldn't want to lose anything so early in his tenure.
Certainly, there's always a good amount of arrogance when the team of higher category use their benchmen and even their young players. But I wouldn't stress this point, since the saddest part of it is that Valladolid ALSO played with reserves :wallbang: They're focused on returning to the First Division, but, unlike our players, they think that winning is simply funny and nice.
The main issue is that bigger teams don't think this is a competition to die for. And, if I'm not wrong, this is not exclussive of Spain. Maybe England is the only country where the Cup is treated honorably. And it's a shame, because I think this is a competition that shows some very remarkeable atributes of a team. Obviously, the ones we don't have :fero:
 

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Gwydno said:
Certainly, there's always a good amount of arrogance when the team of higher category use their benchmen and even their young players. But I wouldn't stress this point, since the saddest part of it is that Valladolid ALSO played with reserves :wallbang: They're focused on returning to the First Division, but, unlike our players, they think that winning is simply funny and nice.
The main issue is that bigger teams don't think this is a competition to die for. And, if I'm not wrong, this is not exclussive of Spain. Maybe England is the only country where the Cup is treated honorably. And it's a shame, because I think this is a competition that shows some very remarkeable atributes of a team. Obviously, the ones we don't have :fero:
Valladolid plays with reserves because they don't have a chance to win the Copa, their only goal is to meet a big club to sell lots of tickets. But I'm surprised to see that you said about the Copa. Since when do Real Madrid misrespect the Copa? Last year you played the final, 2 years ago you reached the 1/4, before the "Centenariazo". Valencia was the champion few years ago. Maybe Barça is the only team that has failed too much lately, but not for playing with reserves preciselly and this system of competition is very unfair, IMO.

I've already explained my point in the Madrid-Valladolid thread. Honestly, the ones who say that the big ones don't care about Copa are totally wrong, IMO.
 
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