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Discussion Starter #1
How is it possible that Barca continues acting like a small club: lousy coaches, ethernal lousy players: Xavi, Gabri, Cocu, Reizeger, etc and doesn't even dare to get together Ronaldinho and Roman, too much galactic for them? I think that with A REAL COACH (vital aspect) they can easily play together and are a great complement for each other: vision, possesion of the ball, great long and short passes with Roman, and speed, goal, and shot in Ronie: both lots of art and beautiful bag of tricks, a kind of Roman and Aimar (i hope i see it again) playing together with Pekerman. What do you think, is that hard to see?, finally they both need someone who stands for them, I think Davids is coming so at last they bring a real defensive midplayer, with the adittion of someone like Samuel in the central defensive area, it can be an awesome team, but I repeat with a real coach, if not it ends like... they are now and been in the last years.
 
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I hope Riquelme will show his great talent with a great club, because when he played for Boca he was great.

Ronaldinho isn't a favorite player from me, I think he isn't more then average.
 

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Vinnie 1983 said:

Ronaldinho isn't a favorite player from me, I think he isn't more then average.
One of the best players of La Liga average... then you are calling the rest of La Liga below average?

Certainly, he is A LOT better than Kluivert.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hey I think this thread is going to somewhre else, I Think that Ronaldinho would be greater and with much less responsabilty and more oportunities to shine even more with Roman, Roman is a really team player that loves to serve goals and both can play beautifull football.
 

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Vinnie is an enigma :).

Great taste in clubs... style and substance with Ajax and Juve..... ehh... tradition and passion with Liverpool ;)... and totally dissing Barca, given his dismay for Ronaldinho and Puyol... two of the Primera's absolute stars... and by far the two best players at Barca.

:D

I've been critical of Ronaldinho too though- mainly because I think he prefers style over substance, but that is only in relation to people comparing his level to for instance Zizou's already, and I think that's wrong. It doesn't change that Ronaldinho is one of the players in the absolute elite braquet... with lots of room to improve... just like Aimar.. and Rosicky if I may say so.
 

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That style over substance its utter crap, Ronaldinho plays to produces and score the problem is barcelona players are not able to deliver, they havent been able to interpret the plays from Ronaldinho, If I was the coach I would play him as a support striker so he is able to score easily by himself, so many teammates of him just waste to many chances
 

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Its what I expected to see when Ronaldinho joined Barça, but as long as the dutch are in charge I doubt we will see that. I think both players would fair really well and would complement one another, get Riquelme back and get a descent striker and I think Barça is set to at least fight for CHL spot.

Marques/Puyol if given more time together will probably become a great duo. The only problem would be LB/RB Reiziger and Brokhurst are mediocrer at best, Reiziger is a little better though. But they still have Sorin? How on earth they let him go and get someone like Brokhurst.

Do they have ties with Rochemback? I think he has transformed into another player since he joined Sporting. He was simply brilliant against Paraguay in pre olimpics. I know its not much of an opposition but he seems to be better overall, much better passing not shooting on goal like crazy etc...

i just don´t know how can someone screw a club like Barça :wallbang:
 

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Ronaldinho is playing very well, he's playing to the sort of level people expected Riquelme to reach. But Riquelme never achieved what he should have. It's not Barca's fault, it's his fault. He couldn't change his mentality to new circumstances. At Villareal, he's at a smaller club, therefore the team can be shaped to his game style. He doesn't do much off the ball, his work rate is practically zero. You couldn't put him in Barcelona's midfield and build the team around his passing when you already have Ronaldinho there, who is in fact doing a better job.

Under Rijkaard :)rolleyes:) Ronaldinho and Puyol have been the stars of this 4-2-3-1 formation. Now, people will always look at Madrid and assume you can pack a midfield with world class talents, but that's not always the case. I REALLY think Rijkaard should take away an DM and play another forward, but working with his formation:

Madrid have a flat four in the midfield, we have 3 attacking midfield players. Because Madrid have 4 mids to our 5, there is more room. They'll have a purely defensive guy like Helguera :)tongue: ) while Figo is out right. Beckham is in the middle with Zidane out left. He's the only guy out of "natural" position, but his talent makes up for it, plus he has a strong left back behind him.

We have 2 DMs behind 3 attacking mids. But 2 of those mids are wingers. I don't think it's fair to move Ronaldinho out right to play Riquelme in the center, when Riquelme showed little initiative while Ronaldinho was outstanding from the first game. And because Rieziger (RB) is very defensive and Van Bronckhorst (LB) isn't a natural left back, it's better to have guys who are natural and experienced at wide left and right to strengthen those positions. So we're left with 1 central attacking midfielder. And I personally wouldn't drop Ronaldinho even if Jesus Christ himself offered to play there.

Rijkaard doesn't have the daredevil attitude to play 2 playmaker midfielders, because it would weaken the defense. He sticks with a single forward, even though fans are crying out for him to drop a defender and play Saviola AND Kluivert, not one or the other.
 

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end3r7 said:
One of the best players of La Liga average... then you are calling the rest of La Liga below average?

Certainly, he is A LOT better than Kluivert.
cut ronaldinhos legs off and put him in a wheelchair and he'll still be a LOT better than kluivert
 

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Angel you can easily play with 2 playmakers and 2 DM. And I know you guys like Iniesta a lot but I think having Rriquelme in his place would be much better. Again I don´t understand what you mean by work rate, no Riquelme never been the player that tracks back or anything. But if you give him some freedom he will find his teammates open.

What I would love to see

Rochemback - Davids - Motta

Ronaldinho - Riquelme

And one good foward

or

Rochemback - Davids

Ronaldinho - Riquelme

Kluivert - 1 Foward

But that will never happen, Rochenback will never comeback since Barça fans don´t like him (they sure have their reasons he sucked at Barça) and I doubt Davids will sign with Barça
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Visca, what the hell are you talking about? from minute one Riquelme wasn't in the plan of all his coaches, and all of them want him to defend????? he is one of the latest pure 10, nor Aimar, Ronaldinho for instance are real playmakers, you in Europe think that if you can dribble you are a ten and a playmaker is what the word says: make plays for the team, Aimar and Ronnie are more individual, not sellfish by the way, but lacks on vision and long passes both in comparisson with Roman (in comparisson with him with the majority of the players NO) also is the way they feel the game, and usually there first option is to dribble, while Riquelme keep the ball in your team. Of course you will need someone to guard their backs, not that ethernal mediocre player like Cocu and Xavi, look what you made to Overmars, after injuries and no support now he looks like el piojo Lopez, and worse in a bad day, while Xavi, Gabri, Cocu always in the team. Ronnie near the area and Roman behind him, both exchanging positions during the game (it is not a crime you know?), with total liberty and Davids and some other real defensive midplayer will make a hell of a team. and stop talking about defensive skills of Roman, he don't play that game, by the way he is with a really small club above Barca, and you keep on making Ronnie's effort useless, you are not far from begining to insult him if you don't get results, keep doing the good job, and loose him like Roman, Romario, ronaldo, Maradona, and the list goes on...

PD: Riquelme was with so few games and in a 50% of what he can one of the best assist % in La liga, and was him that bad in comparisson with the rest of the team so that he had to leave? well the living proof is your current situation.
 

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I'm with ViscaBarcaInter on this one.

Riquelme is too slow to play in Spain, and Maradona tells him to go to Italy....alright....together with Liverani he would be considered the slowest player ever, the guy is a turtle.

And two central playmakers never co-exist in Europe, I think the only country where I still see two "tens" or central playmakers together is Brazil, even though not in the top teams.

Ronaldinho and Riquelme would steal each other's place in the picth, pretty much like Petkovic and Alex in Flamengo some years ago. I don't like the idea of pushing Ronaldinho to play as wing in the right side.
 

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:rolleyes:

Our current situation was no different last season when Riquelme was there.

I don't speak as someone who doesn't like Riquelme. When I went to Barcelona I bought the away shirt with his name on the back, and I was looking forward to seeing him in a Barca shirt. But he didn't succeed. It's not my fault, it's definitely not Barcelona's fault.

What is the deal with that anyway? When a player fails at a club, people say it wasn't the right move, or he wasn't good enough. When a player fails at Barca, the club itself is somehow to blame for these guys failure. It's not the club's fault Riquelme only scored a small amount of goals. It's not the club's fault he wasn't working hard enough and that he was late for training. It's not our fault Maradona's hangers-on led him to drugs, and that the Bilbao butchers broke his ankle. It's nowt to do with purely defensive skills. If a playmaker won't pass the ball early enough, if he won't hit enough shots, if he doesn't take his job seriously enough, if he won't work, then he can't look to anyone else to take the blame for him. There's no doubt Van Gaal didn't make it easy, but he didn't take the chances he was given. If perhaps he used his vision instead of mostly looking for the glamour pass instead of the efficient pass he would have looked better.

Hypothetically, he and Ronaldinho could play together. But between the two, Ronaldinho is vastly the better player. And Creating chances isn't Barca's problem. Exchanging positions freely would be nice, but Riquelme never showed that kind of movement and positional play at Barca, while Ronaldinho has settled into great form right away.

Cocu and Xavi are not mediocre. There's no point in bringing up those two in a debate regarding Riquelme. If Riquelme is playing at 100%, Xavi could be expendable, but Cocu has performed at a high level for us in a different position for a long time.

And cut the "you in Europe" crap. While I'm flattered you assumed I spoke for the Entire continent of Europe, childish SA vs Europe debates have no relevance here. Contrary to the opinions of some, South American football and European football aren't THAT different. Althought your commentators are miles better than ours! This isn't about anti South American attitudes, this is about a player that apparently couldn't deal with playing for Barcelona, and who happens to be South American. If he was German or Romanian, the same inquests would happen, although there would have been less hype and less outcry.

One last point. Lose those guys? Firstly, we didn't "lose" Riquelme, he wasn't performing at all, so we loaned him out so he could get games, practice in the league, and get the experience necessary to see if he could reach newer heights.

We didn't "lose" Romario either. He wasn't forced out or anything like that. He delivered goals and success, honed his skills by playing in a new league, gained new experience and developed towards his primary aim of being 100% for Brazil's World Cup 94 campaign. After that, he went back to Brazil. It would have been nicer to have him longer, as he was an incredible player. But he had made his intentions clear, and I'm simply happy that such a legendary player played for Barca.

I'm as unhappy as anyone that Maradona's Barca career didn't take off the way it should have. It's my favourite ever player at my favourite club. But as already stated, Barcelona was were Maradona was introduced to hard drugs. It would take pages to talk about the problems associated with Maradona, but things were against him from the start. He didn't like Nunez (who did?), He suffered a horrendous injury because of that famous challege by some Bilbao scumbag, he didn't like the managers....

And Ronaldo left because his agents wanted more money. Simple. Anytime Ronaldo talks about his experience at Barcelona, his only harsh words are for Nunez.
 

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Saying he is slow to play La Liga is the most stupid thing I ever heard. People would say the same about Rivaldo and look what he did in La Liga. Riquelme on form would make the ball run, he did not need to run. Just like Alex does not need to be fast because he has brilliant vision.

Also Ronaldinho is not a central playmaker, but there are teams that use 2 "central" playmakers Milan will probably start using Kaka and Rui more.

And the only reason more teams don´t use more playmakers in europe is simply because there is not enough quality. How many teams would be able to have in their squad Ronaldinho/Riquelme Kaka/Rui?
 

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ViscaBarcaInter said:
:rolleyes:

Our current situation was no different last season when Riquelme was there.

I don't speak as someone who doesn't like Riquelme. When I went to Barcelona I bought the away shirt with his name on the back, and I was looking forward to seeing him in a Barca shirt. But he didn't succeed. It's not my fault, it's definitely not Barcelona's fault.

What is the deal with that anyway? When a player fails at a club, people say it wasn't the right move, or he wasn't good enough. When a player fails at Barca, the club itself is somehow to blame for these guys failure. It's not the club's fault Riquelme only scored a small amount of goals. It's not the club's fault he wasn't working hard enough and that he was late for training. It's not our fault Maradona's hangers-on led him to drugs, and that the Bilbao butchers broke his ankle. It's nowt to do with purely defensive skills. If a playmaker won't pass the ball early enough, if he won't hit enough shots, if he doesn't take his job seriously enough, if he won't work, then he can't look to anyone else to take the blame for him. There's no doubt Van Gaal didn't make it easy, but he didn't take the chances he was given. If perhaps he used his vision instead of mostly looking for the glamour pass instead of the efficient pass he would have looked better.

Hypothetically, he and Ronaldinho could play together. But between the two, Ronaldinho is vastly the better player. And Creating chances isn't Barca's problem. Exchanging positions freely would be nice, but Riquelme never showed that kind of movement and positional play at Barca, while Ronaldinho has settled into great form right away.

Cocu and Xavi are not mediocre. There's no point in bringing up those two in a debate regarding Riquelme. If Riquelme is playing at 100%, Xavi could be expendable, but Cocu has performed at a high level for us in a different position for a long time.

And cut the "you in Europe" crap. While I'm flattered you assumed I spoke for the Entire continent of Europe, childish SA vs Europe debates have no relevance here. Contrary to the opinions of some, South American football and European football aren't THAT different. Althought your commentators are miles better than ours! This isn't about anti South American attitudes, this is about a player that apparently couldn't deal with playing for Barcelona, and who happens to be South American. If he was German or Romanian, the same inquests would happen, although there would have been less hype and less outcry.

One last point. Lose those guys? Firstly, we didn't "lose" Riquelme, he wasn't performing at all, so we loaned him out so he could get games, practice in the league, and get the experience necessary to see if he could reach newer heights.

We didn't "lose" Romario either. He wasn't forced out or anything like that. He delivered goals and success, honed his skills by playing in a new league, gained new experience and developed towards his primary aim of being 100% for Brazil's World Cup 94 campaign. After that, he went back to Brazil. It would have been nicer to have him longer, as he was an incredible player. But he had made his intentions clear, and I'm simply happy that such a legendary player played for Barca.

I'm as unhappy as anyone that Maradona's Barca career didn't take off the way it should have. It's my favourite ever player at my favourite club. But as already stated, Barcelona was were Maradona was introduced to hard drugs. It would take pages to talk about the problems associated with Maradona, but things were against him from the start. He didn't like Nunez (who did?), He suffered a horrendous injury because of that famous challege by some Bilbao scumbag, he didn't like the managers....

And Ronaldo left because his agents wanted more money. Simple. Anytime Ronaldo talks about his experience at Barcelona, his only harsh words are for Nunez.
How you want a player to perform with a shitty coach? People say its Barça "fault" simply because the dutch coaches have ruined Barça. So many players that could have formed a great team were pushed aside by Van Gal, the way Rivaldo left was a prime example. Saviola and Quaresma will probably be the next casualties, they will probably play better once they leave the club.

bottom line is Barça has been wasting good players on shit coaches, Sorin/Rivaldo/Riquelme/Rochemback(he sucked at Barça, but still better than all the DMs in Barça right now)
 

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Liternit:
Saying he is slow to play La Liga is the most stupid thing I ever heard. People would say the same about Rivaldo and look what he did in La Liga. Riquelme on form would make the ball run, he did not need to run. Just like Alex does not need to be fast because he has brilliant vision.
Even in Villarreal he is having problems with his complete lack of speed.

Don't come with this "make the ball run" crap, in Europe the speed of the game is different. You don't have 10 seconds to think like in Brazil or Argentina, even if you compare to Spain which is not the fastest league around, the south american football is 1000 times slower.

I was watching Valencia vs. Villarreal last week, and Riquelme couldn't perform well again. Valencia does the press marking better than anyone in Spain, and this made Riquelme become invisible and lost several balls, creating counter-attacks for the opponent. He scored a beautiful FK goal, and that was all.

And don't compare Alex with him. Alex has much more mobility and is a much more complete player than Riquelme. I'd compare fatty Alex, who failed at Cruzeiro two years ago with Riquelme. I'm not saying that Alex became a fast player, but he sure has much more mobility now.

About the teams in Europe not using two central playmakers because they don't have it, I think it's more the other way around. They don't sign two central playmakers because they see that they can't work together. Milan tried Kaká with Rui Costa, but theuy just put one forward, making Kaká become a forward sometimes. This way, it can work, but it's clearly not the best option for Milan since they have Inzaghi.

Tell me, which was the last greatest team with two central playmakers that you've saw? Don't say Luxemburgo's Corinthians, because Marcelinho has the ability to play wide open and Ricardinho is a playmaker who can work as third-defensive mid....like Wendell, Elano, Seedorf, Zé Roberto and so many others. Vasco in 2000? Juninho Pernambucano played the same role, third defensive-mid, becoming a work horse to give more freedom to Juninho Pauista and the other two forwards.

Even in Brazil this formation with two central skilled with no defensive skills is disappearing...

Cruzeiro plays in the 4-3-1-2 system. Wendel works as a third defensive mid, giving more freedom do Alex, who becomes a third-attacker coming from behind. I'm sure Zinho even today is more useful offensively than Wendell, so the Wendell choice was not the most offensive one.

Santos uses the 4-2-3-1 system, with Elano doing the same that Wendell does at Cruzeiro, but even more open in the right side and Robinho coming back to be a 5th man in the midfield, helping in the mark and being a choice for making plays, unlike an usual forward.

São Paulo without Ricardinho played the 4-4-2 that most European teams use, with no cental playmakers. Two lines of four. The playmakers played in the side, Nery wide open and the left and I don't remember who wide open in the right.

São Cateano, 3-4-1-2 and Coritiba, 4-3-1-2 (Jackson doing the third-man and giving freedom to Tcheco).

Unless Riquelme or Ronaldinho(one of them) become a third defensive mid defending, and playing wide open to give more freedom to the other one, I can't see this formation working.

It's just my opinion, I don't own the truth. But I'd say I'm not the only one who says that. Again, I'd use Tostão to back me up here.
 

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Liternit said:
How you want a player to perform with a shitty coach? People say its Barça "fault" simply because the dutch coaches have ruined Barça. So many players that could have formed a great team were pushed aside by Van Gal, the way Rivaldo left was a prime example. Saviola and Quaresma will probably be the next casualties, they will probably play better once they leave the club.

bottom line is Barça has been wasting good players on shit coaches, Sorin/Rivaldo/Riquelme/Rochemback(he sucked at Barça, but still better than all the DMs in Barça right now)
right to the point :thumbsup: Barca's love with the Dutch will end in segunda one day.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Here are Barca's faults:

Calling Van Gaal again.
Fans saying that it was better to keep Antic????, he was awfull!!! he made you played as a second rate team, but because he made a little better numbers, now he is a good coach.
The usuall barca's incompetent President: Nuñez, Gaspart and this Laporta.
You can't keep any player that is valuable and constantly keeping incredibly luosy players like Reizeger or the last the Boer, Cocu is a phantom in the field.
Always looking what Real is doing and running behind them, sadly no imitation.
Your problem with Riquelme is that you expected Maradona, and he is Bochini another awesome turtle like Guardiola was (I love him, and you dare to call Xavi his sucesor).
Van Gaal didn't make him easy?? he almost didn't use him, and with antic when he was reaching his level...misteriously after a bad match (the hole team have it) against Juve...bench again.
Saviola 40 goals in his first two seasons, playing minutes and coming from the bench in the majority of the cases...now he is playing in a low level... of course is his fault, why is he in a bad mood? He doesn't feel at home? lousy, lousy player :confused:
Overmars also is a lousy player that never deserve to be treated well, in fact Barca don't care because is a big big club, and also he was a bargain.
roberto Gallo I understand you, you are from the team with the amazing Piojo Lopez, and maradonian Cholo Simeone, a hell of a team, and also Speedy Veron (by the way I like Veron, I critized many times his attitude, but he NEVER needs speed bullshit to take you to win a championship).
Ronie and Roman can play together because Riquelme is a TEN (or even a 5 as Guardiola, Redondo style) and Ronie is this last decades attacking mid fielders, with a bit of striker, a bit of playmaker, and lots of stamina like Aimar, that based their game in high speed dribble and excellent skills, but always lacks of pause; not truly playmakers like Roman, or Diego from Santos, or Zidane or Valeron. So they can combine, but again with a coach that knows what he have in his hands.

Finally Visca you are right about the "you in europe", I apologize, what I mean is that it seems that you have another conception of what a playmaker is, in fact Maradona wasn't a typical playmaker and is in part his fault to change the conception of what a ten is.
And believe me while I put myself "american" I'm from the country of the 10 and 5, as brazil is for 3, 4 and Strikers, we know what we are talking about, and we enjoy them always (by the way phone call to Bielsa: a TEN now in the preolimpic: IDIOT, and stop changing places!!! Clemente is not an 8!!! the 5 is there (mascherano) but an argie team without a 10 is like Italy without top class defender).
 
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