[Driver X]

I'm not sure if anybody's heard this, but it's true. Apparently Pele was doing his usual criticism of the Brazilian NT, and I guess Rivaldo had enough. Rivaldo said Pele wouldn't be half the player today, that he was back in the day. He said it was so much easier to score in those days, there were so many more scoring chances, more forwards, and poor defenders.
I agree with Rivaldo, Pele played in a much easier time. Even though Pele was such a great player, the guy does talk too much. Good for Rivaldo

 

[ANELKA]

and rivaldo tals tooooo little.
the big mouth of rivaldo never gets shut.

 

[EclipsE]

Rivaldo's got a point. But they BOTH need to SHUT THE **** UP.

 

[TAZZ]

Maradona played against the likes of Baresi. He knew what itmeant to face hard knock life of Serie A.

Pele is not ready for the world today....i have seen alotta his goals but he couldn't carry the ball like Maradona.

i ove the picture Ze was talking about i would love to see it of Pele signing Maradona's shoes....hilarious!!!!!!!

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Tazz,
pele played agaisnt Bobby Moore, your belovd Giacinto Fachetti and Beckenbauer...just to mention a few.
Rivaldo is jelous of Pele, a true winner, although Pele should shut his mouth up..cause 90% of it just garbage comes out!
Altouhgh he is right, the team is AWFUL!

 

[falcao]

what right does rivaldo have to criticize the king?

rivaldo has been a big failure when brazil needed him most: in the olympics and in the world cup final.

pele never once disappointed brazil.

but pele should shut up now. if i were pele, my mouth would be full of 18-year-old brasileiras 24 hours a day. i would not have time to talk about football, especially this garbage team.

 

[tonyp3]

Tazz...if you look at it that way...I think the defense is much better now that in Maradona's years...People are faster and stronger...does that take away from maradona's merits??

 

[TAZZ]

No...but what it does is make R9 a potentiall better player than both Pele and Maradona.

By the way here is a theory i was rolling over in my head.

Pele and Maradona played in the fifties-sixties-seventies and eighties-nineties respectively.

Now listen to this. What i think is that not that Pele and Maradon couldn't play against Nesta and thuram today. It is that they didn't have to so they didn't have to play that well in order to score like they did.

In other words what i am saying is that you only need to be as good as it is needed to survive. If the level needed to be reached to survive was lower a few decades ago it means that it is possible that Pele and Maradona could also be just as great if they were around today. R9 when at his best is probably more spectacular than Maradona and more clynical than Pele but when Maradona and Pele played they didn't have to be as good as R9 is today to be considered the best in teh world.

hence when there is no more competition your talents/skills reach what i call the "ABILITY-PLATEAU"

Look at Pete Sampras......look at Tiger Woods...if he had competition when he was at his best right now he would have to improve......right now he doesn'tt have tto....does it mean that he is not as good a golfer as the world's best golfer 40 yeyars from now? Not necessarily it just that he didn't have any competition.

Mabye Pele was better than Maradona only because he had competition in the shape of Eusebio....no one in Maradona's age was comparible.

Anyway that is just a theory.....tell me what you guys think.

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Tazz,
your theroy is a complete load off garbage.
Maradona did not have no competition? CAn I name Zico? Platini? Mathaus? or even in a lesser extent Gullit?
ABout the defenders.....that is the same thing an economist today would be much better than an Adam Smith or david Ricardo because he has had the capability to more information and a better preparation.
Also , the Greene guy is better than Carl Lewis?? don't think so!!!
Pele is unstouchable..football is before and after Pele simple as that. Nobody says..Maradona was better than Di Stefano..therfore he was the best of the world....evrybody has to compare to Pele...but the bottom line is that their is no compararison with the king....and your theory would never win a Nobel Prize of Sports comparison

 

[tonyp3]

TAzz..I kinda agree and disagree with you...

My point is that, the only way people from different generations can be measured is by what the accomplished!!!!

Now, everyone is faster and stronger...So, the game has changed...But if anyone accomplishes what pele accomplished, I will give them credit...Pele was the best at his time...Maradona was best at his...Pele won 3 world cups...Maradona won 1....I know there are many counter arguments...If you present them, I will defend against it....I dont have time to think of it right now....

Also, I really think that ronaldo had the POTENTIAL to be the best ever....He is a physically probably the best guy I have seen...And add to that his undisputed skills....I really think that Ronaldo is a better player than many of the older great ones...But until Ronaldo wins anything, I dont want to hear anything from anyone....And you know how much I love him...I really think that he is the most exciting player ever....but, I dont think he is the best because he hasnt done anything to prove it...Unless you prove yourself, you are nothing...

I see that you mentioned tiger woods...obviously, nobody in the history of the game could probably beat him...does that make him the greatest?? I dont think so....Nicklaus played when everyone played with woooden clubs...and he beat the hell out of them for like 20 years...Now everyone plays with Titanium and Tungsten etc...When Tiger kicks butt for the next 20 years, he will be the greatest...If he wins more than 19 grandslams, he will be the greatest...unless that happens, he wont be the greatest...

 

[falcao]

I love TAZZ's theory. What he is saying is this: The players were good in Pele's day; in Maradona's day they were a bit better; in Ronaldo's day they are even better still. TAZZ is NOT saying that Pele was good, Maradona was better and Ronaldo is the best. What he is saying is that OVERALL the players have gotten better and better, which is true. Because of improvements in food, medicine, training, drugs, health care, equipment, grass, even transportation, the players today are bigger, faster, strong, fitter, healthier, etc.

I think what TAZZ is saying is this: Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo are special talents who are better than the other players of their generations, and they raised their games to be better than the others. But Pele did not have to raise his game as much as Maradona, and Maradona did not have to raise his game as much as Ronaldo. Do you guys understand that? This DOES NOT mean Maradona is better than Pele, or that Ronaldo is better than Maradona, or whatever. (We all know that's an endless argument.)

What TAZZ is saying is that all three players were the best of their generations and played above the level of everyone else, but Ronaldo has to play at a higher level than Pele or Maradona did because the level of competition is so much better. If that's what TAZZ is saying, I agree with him.

This IS NOT a judgment on who is better, Pele, Maradona or Ronaldo. Obviously, Pele is the best ever. And, obviously, and I think TAZZ would agree, Pele and Maradona could have raised their games to even higher levels if they had to. They both wanted to be the best.

(Tonyp3 is RIGHT: Ronaldo is the perfect footballer, the best football body EVER! Big, strong, muscular, lean, lightning fast, superskillful. Amazing.)

 

[Driver X]

I conquer, Ronaldo is the perfect footballer, he's complete, but maybe he lacks a little bit of vision
He sometimes didn't spot Bebeto available during WC 98, he doesn't really look around.
But let's just say it just has to do with experience, maybe in the 2006 WC Ronaldo will be captain of the Brazilian team with great vision.

 

[TAZZ]

Yes i guess when it comes to who is better it simply has to do with opinion.

As for Zico Platini and Mathaeus and Gullit not one of them was comparable to Maradona. Get real.....all of these mentioned are indeed all time greats but not one of them was Maradona.

There are only historically 4 players in Maradona' calss and they are Pele Cryuf Beckanbauer and Ronaldo (potentially)

C'mon Za be honest you are 24 you are 4 years older than i am and you would have seen even more of Maradona's good years than i would have......be honest bro.

EDIT
---------------------------------------
Thanx for agreeing with me Falcao......what is that? the first time in weeks we see eye to eye just like old times hahaha

[Edited by ilTAZZ on 25-07-2000 at 20:59]

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Falcao and Tazz,
The 90' s the best generation of players?
PLease pare my time....it was a Decade were you saw George Weah and Zidane be the best of the world (I do not want to infoerorize the,)
but their level is below a Platini, a Van BAsten, a Careca, a Reinaldo, etc..etc...etc..
The best decade of footabll was in the 60's in Europe and SOuth America..euroep having Real Madrid and Brazil having Santos.
NOw if you want to talk about tacitcal systems and the development of tactics to break down talent that is a complete different issue, tahn to say ROnaldo is the best ever, ebcause he is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FAR from that

And I agree with a genius called JOHAAN CRUJYFF:
"Nowdays, its esay to be the best of the world...just dribble 2 guys and score a goal and your their".
The lack of talent is very BIG compared to the old days my friends....more and more skill is being taken off to put destroyers on the field to spoil the game......although TAZZ and GLEN love that!! (boring phuckers )

 

[TAZZ]

Carlo Ancelotti
Carlos Dunga
Edgar Davids
Frank Rijkaard
Luis Fernandez
Fernando Redondo

All great and TALENTED DESTROYERS

Talent doesn't only come in the Cryuf Pele Maradona mould.

Sometimes it actually appears in Emersons and Simeones

But not for you right bro.

Edgar Davids doesn't spoil games to me. He makes a goal scored against his team all the mre special because you not only had to get past Edgar Davids in midfield you had to get past also Van Der Saar and either Iuliano Montero Ferrara or Stam DeBoer and Reizeger.

THAT IS CALCIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[falcao]

ze da fiel, i'm not saying the 1990s have the best players of all time. i'm saying the players of the 1990s and today are better PREPARED to play football than players from the 1950s, 60s, 70s or 80s. overall, the competition is more difficult now because ALL the players are bigger, faster, stronger, fitter, better trained. i'm NOT saying they are BETTER, just that they are better prepared to play football for 90 minutes.

look, for example, at the physical conditions of zico, socrates, falcao (all-time GREATS) compared with the physical conditions of bergkamp, zidane, totti, etc. obviously the brazilians of the 1980s were much better players, but the stars of today are physically superior.

if falcao had access to the training equipment, medicine, drugs, football equipment of today, he would be the best player in history.

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Falcao,
Zico was better prepared than any of those guys of the 90's , because his body was totally rebuilt from when he was a 15 year old to when he was 20 year old. He was very skinny...then he became that fat muscled player.
They tried to do the same thing to another player GIlmar Popoca, but with working out every day he lost the flexibility..but the guy was really good!

 

[TAZZ]

Really interesting topic i'll make a new one about Zidane.

Zidane vs. Zico

 

[tonyp3]

Guys...new development...Maybe I am dragging this on...But..

I just saw Argentina vs. England in WC86....Man, I had heard that Argentina upset England...this was no upset...ARgentina was clearly the better team....anyway...

I thought the English defense was horrible...As good as maradona was, I think a lot had to do with British incompetence..(sorry Ze, Falcao)...I thought they seemed really confused between a Zone and Man marking...I mean, Maradona had numerous chances where he was dribbling for a long time and there wasnt even people challenging him...He seemed much faster than other...Yes...Ronaldo kinda does the same thing...But, one thing I noticed was that not of the players really ran after him...They were dumping him off to the next guy to challenge him...In the game now, almost everyone is fast and is able to run people down...England looked like a team that was very disorganize and with limited defensive ability....


I know, I know...I saw the game with my biased eyes...I did have a pre conceived notion that defense now is much better...But, I am not BSing...I really thought that the game was totally different from the game now...

I am not taking anything away from maradona...but I dont think he would be able to do the things he did now....I mean, the midfield defense was pretty bad...What kind of man marking is that?? But, I am not taking anything away from maradona...And another thing I dont understand...England hacked down a lot of players in the game...Why the heck didnt they do that why Mardona had that magical run???...Also, Maradona reminds me of someone...ORTEGA...no no...ortega is not that good...He was a phucking bum just like Ortega...Diving and acting every chance he got...I thought it was pathetic...

Falcao..I know you are english...What were your opinions about english game then???..

I will be waiting for the criticism on my views

[Edited by tonyp3 on 28-07-2000 at 01:09]

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Tony,
you cant compare to THAT England team, cause that was a pathetic defense.
SAMSOM? FENWICK (so crap), PETER REID! the only good one really was Terry Butcher.
good defense back then was France's who had:
Amoros, Bossis, Battiston and ht left back which i forgot ...they always used to swap with each other.
Also, germany was a very god dfense, although thier side were just pieces and got to the final with EXTREME good luck.
Augenthaler, Kohler and another one which i don't rememebr.
The defenses are not better, what is better is that managers saw that the thing is to block space and to narrow the other teams zone down......that is not "defense got better"...it just got more tactical and efficient........threfore the valeu of skill has gonne down!