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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
People say that time heals all wounds. With that in mind, I found myself wondering if enough time has passed for us to analyze Dunga's passage through Brasil's NT more dispassionately. I mean, this is a guy who built a team that the whole world acknowledged as solid and competitive - but his fiery temper attracted so much resentment and bitterness from Brasil's sports media, that by the time his team was eliminated from the WC some Brasilian journalists could barely disguise their glee in finally being able to demonize Dunga. After we were eliminated from the WC, it was nearly impossible to say anything positive about Dunga's work in Brasil (as it always is with any manager after we lose a WC). Mind you, I'm not saying that Dunga was a genius, and I'm not excusing his mistakes; I just wonder if we can finally make a balanced evaluation that doesn't focus only on what went wrong. Can we give Dunga some credit for the good things that he did?



When he was Brasil's NT manager, Dunga drove the Brasilian sports media berserk by committing several unforgivable crimes: First, he wasn't sufficiently polite to journalists who said offensive things to and about him (like the dishonest sh!thead who claimed that Dunga wouldn't have called Pele in 58 because he didn't call Neymar in 2010). Second, Dunga didn't call media-darlings Ganso and Neymar to the WC, flagrantly disobeying opinionmakers from all over the country (Scolari only got away with disobeying the media's demand for Romario because he won the 2002 WC). Then, Dunga dared call several players that didn't fit the Flamboyant Footballer stereotype that Brasilian NTs are obligated to conform to - guys like Felipe Melo and Grafite, both of whom had no support in our media and were singled out as major reasons for Brasil's defeat immediately after we lost (After all, it's not like World-Cup-winning Brasilian NTs EVER had unimpressive squad players such as Anderson Polga or Paulo Sergio, who weren't fan favorites but had the manager's trust anyway).

In the period after the WC call-up and before the WC began, that was all over the news: How DARE Dunga not follow the media's hype machine? Everyone "knew" that Ganso and Neymar were two geniuses that were fully prepared to dazzle the world with their skillz and beat all opponents through pure unfiltered Futebol-Arte - HOW could Dunga leave out two craques whose mere presence would have pushed our team to win the World Cup?

...Of course, now we know that it wasn't true: apparently Neymar and Ganso weren't so ready after all. They both went to this year's Copa America, both one year more experienced than they would've been in the WC - and lo and fvckin' behold, both Ganso and Neymar flopped pitifully. And these were the guys who would have made the difference on the WC, whose presences would have turned our whole team from water to wine? :err: In the search for explanations for their mutual failure, Ganso at least can point to an injury that he apparently hadn't fully recovered from yet when the Copa America came along; Neymar simply choked in his own arrogance, wasting too much energy with flamboyant feints to do anything useful for the team. And I find it somewhat hard to believe that one year ago Neymar was more mature than he is today.

About the players that Dunga called instead of The Wonder Kids Who Would've Totally Won The WC... it's easy to single out Felipe Melo after he was sent off in the match that got us eliminated, but like him or not Felipe Melo was one of the best options we had for that position at the time. Melo had proven his value to the NT several times, the numbers clearly showed that the team worked better with him, even though his football wasn't sufficiently magical to please our demanding pundits. Grafite's presence on the group also attracted lots of rage from Neymar's admirers, as they identified him as occupying the exact spot that "should" have been occupied by their teenage idol. And here's something controversial: I can't blame Dunga for preferring a proven and experienced striker over a skillful punk who thinks his sh1t smells like flowers; it's easy for fans with no responsibility to say "call the wonderkid!!", but an NT manager who's preparing a WC list has to weight all pros and cons very carefully.

And then there was Kleberson, a decadent DM whose WC experience wasn't really a good reason for his presence on the squad... I have no idea what led Dunga to think Kleberson could be so useful, but to be honest Kleberson was far from the worst Brasilian player I've seen in WCs; that privilege goes to Ze Carlos, a mediocre rightback that Zagallo took to the 98 WC and whose participation on the tournament involved being repeatedly beaten by Zenden on the semifinal against Holland (compared to Ze Carlos, Kleberson is Xavi). I wouldn't have called Kleberson and don't know anyone else who would, but this is hardly the first time Brasil took to the WC a player who clearly didn't deserve to be there (does anyone remember Doriva in 98?).

The way I see it, Dunga's biggest failure was the way he lost all self-control in our fateful game against Holland. That day Dunga was so unsettled that he made Cuca look emotionally balanced. When I saw Dunga losing the plot like he did, I knew that he had to go, because we can't afford to have an NT manager who loses his shit like that. And I thought it was a pity, because despite all the hatred that so many pundits dedicated to him Dunga had a pretty good run heading our NT.

I couldn't care less about how much our sports media hated his guts: more than half of our sports journalists are clueless morons anyway, and most of the time they deserved the rude answers they got from Dunga. I also didn't particularly mind the presence/absence of this or that player; there were undeserving players and shocking absences in EVERY SINGLE World-Cup call-up made in Brasil on the last three decades, and I've come to accept that it's part of the package to not agree 100% with WC call-ups (it's very easy to criticize, but actually making an WC call-up that everyone agrees with is practically impossible, because we have too many alternatives to make an unanymously-approved list).

Despite all the media hostility and the absence of the media-darlings du jour on Brasil's 2010 WC squad, today I honestly only see one unforgivable mistake: losing his temper when we lost control of the game against Holland. I can accept the absence of a good player or the presence of a questionable player, and I have no problem with an NT manager who treats idiot journalists as idiots - but an NT manager who can't keep his shit together when we're behind is simply unacceptable. If it weren't for that temper tantrum, I'd honestly rather have Dunga as our NT's manager today than Mano Menezes.



Your thoughts?
 

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He went against the biggest media conglomerate in Brasil thats it, yes he was a defensive and boring coach but had very good results.

He deserved more support going to the World Cup instead even before he lost he was already labeled a failure, he tried to put an end to everything the media complained about 2006 and when he actually did jornalists hammered him for it.
 

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People should always think that in 58 Canhoteiro was out and Pepe Went. Julinho, Evaristo, etc. In 70, Ademir da Guia and Dirceu Lopes. In 94, Rivaldo, Edmundo, Djalminha... In 2002 no Juninho Pernambucano, Amoroso... And more personal preferences, oddities were called.

Dunga lost his head before that game (Never saw Brazil so without coolness to manipulate referees, even with games on our side, like Ivory Coast) and the truth... One plague can make you lose it all, Felipe Mello was very risky. And that 10 minutes of crazyness destroyed all.

Not a great coach, but the anti-dunga by globo was ridiculous.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #4
People should always think that in 58 Canhoteiro was out and Pepe Went. Julinho, Evaristo, etc. In 70, Ademir da Guia and Dirceu Lopes. In 94, Rivaldo, Edmundo, Djalminha... In 2002 no Juninho Pernambucano, Amoroso... And more personal preferences, oddities were called.
That's how it always goes, and I think it's inevitable: each manager (or fan) has his own tactical/technical preferences and priorities, which leads to different views on what a perfect WC list would be. I think it would be an interesting exercise for each of us to make a WC call-up and then have our choices picked apart by our peers; it's so easy to find flaws and so hard to get it right.

Dunga lost his head before that game (Never saw Brazil so without coolness to manipulate referees, even with games on our side, like Ivory Coast) and the truth... One plague can make you lose it all, Felipe Mello was very risky. And that 10 minutes of crazyness destroyed all.
Oh, absolutely, the tantrum against Holland wasn't the first time Dunga went wild on the sidelines, but it was definitely the worst. Melo's suicidal blunder in that tight game was the last straw that made our manager go utterly berserk, reminding me of past fits of rage like when Dunga headbutted Bebeto inside the pitch. There were moments during the 2nd half when I wondered if the linesman was completely safe, so close that all that rage. Hell, that day I fantasized about Dunga headbutting Melo on live TV for the sake of national schadenfreude. :D

Not a great coach, but the anti-dunga by globo was ridiculous.
True that. I hope Dunga returns to coaching, as I think he can be a very good manager if he manages to get his nerves under control. Or maybe he'll have less problems at club level, where the pressure isn't as massive as in Brasil's NT.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
He went against the biggest media conglomerate in Brasil thats it, yes he was a defensive and boring coach but had very good results.

He deserved more support going to the World Cup instead even before he lost he was already labeled a failure, he tried to put an end to everything the media complained about 2006 and when he actually did jornalists hammered him for it.
:thumbsup: Quoted for truth. Putting an end to Globo's preferential access to the NT's players was a choice that made the whole network hate Dunga's guts, and that set a tone for a lot of other channels (and Dunga's limited tolerance for bullshit didn't help him make friends on the media in general, as Dunga rarely held "treinos recreativos" open for cameras like we had in 2006). And given Globo's influence, it's no surprise that some Brasilian fans think Dunga is the worst manager our NT ever had. He was far from it, but in some ways he was the boldest since João Saldanha.
 

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The one who was Bella
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I was really impressed with the team Dunga put together as a guy hwo loves the defensive side of the game and really appricieated it. granted a great coach needs to be versetile and open minded, but he showed to have a really good future as a club coach when he can coach these guys on a daily basis and preach his gosple. till that 2nd half his Brazil looked like a side that can go all the way. i'd actually put my money on them beating Spain if they'de meet in that tournement. considering it was his first job and all he's done a great job and showed flashes of a true coach.

I'd take him to Inter today in a heartbeat really.
 

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Hexacampeão
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Even though I was never a fan of the style, it mostly got us results. My problem with Dunga was some of his strange player choices -- Josué, Kléberson, Grafite, Júlio Baptista, etc.
 

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People say that time heals all wounds. With that in mind, I found myself wondering if enough time has passed for us to analyze Dunga's passage through Brasil's NT more dispassionately. I mean, this is a guy who built a team that the whole world acknowledged as solid and competitive - but his fiery temper attracted so much resentment and bitterness from Brasil's sports media, that by the time his team was eliminated from the WC some Brasilian journalists could barely disguise their glee in finally being able to demonize Dunga. After we were eliminated from the WC, it was nearly impossible to say anything positive about Dunga's work in Brasil (as it always is with any manager after we lose a WC). Mind you, I'm not saying that Dunga was a genius, and I'm not excusing his mistakes; I just wonder if we can finally make a balanced evaluation that doesn't focus only on what went wrong. Can we give Dunga some credit for the good things that he did?



When he was Brasil's NT manager, Dunga drove the Brasilian sports media berserk by committing several unforgivable crimes: First, he wasn't sufficiently polite to journalists who said offensive things to and about him (like the dishonest sh!thead who claimed that Dunga wouldn't have called Pele in 58 because he didn't call Neymar in 2010). Second, Dunga didn't call media-darlings Ganso and Neymar to the WC, flagrantly disobeying opinionmakers from all over the country (Scolari only got away with disobeying the media's demand for Romario because he won the 2002 WC). Then, Dunga dared call several players that didn't fit the Flamboyant Footballer stereotype that Brasilian NTs are obligated to conform to - guys like Felipe Melo and Grafite, both of whom had no support in our media and were singled out as major reasons for Brasil's defeat immediately after we lost (After all, it's not like World-Cup-winning Brasilian NTs EVER had unimpressive squad players such as Anderson Polga or Paulo Sergio, who weren't fan favorites but had the manager's trust anyway).

In the period after the WC call-up and before the WC began, that was all over the news: How DARE Dunga not follow the media's hype machine? Everyone "knew" that Ganso and Neymar were two geniuses that were fully prepared to dazzle the world with their skillz and beat all opponents through pure unfiltered Futebol-Arte - HOW could Dunga leave out two craques whose mere presence would have pushed our team to win the World Cup?

...Of course, now we know that it wasn't true: apparently Neymar and Ganso weren't so ready after all. They both went to this year's Copa America, both one year more experienced than they would've been in the WC - and lo and fvckin' behold, both Ganso and Neymar flopped pitifully. And these were the guys who would have made the difference on the WC, whose presences would have turned our whole team from water to wine? :err: In the search for explanations for their mutual failure, Ganso at least can point to an injury that he apparently hadn't fully recovered from yet when the Copa America came along; Neymar simply choked in his own arrogance, wasting too much energy with flamboyant feints to do anything useful for the team. And I find it somewhat hard to believe that one year ago Neymar was more mature than he is today.

About the players that Dunga called instead of The Wonder Kids Who Would've Totally Won The WC... it's easy to single out Felipe Melo after he was sent off in the match that got us eliminated, but like him or not Felipe Melo was one of the best options we had for that position at the time. Melo had proven his value to the NT several times, the numbers clearly showed that the team worked better with him, even though his football wasn't sufficiently magical to please our demanding pundits. Grafite's presence on the group also attracted lots of rage from Neymar's admirers, as they identified him as occupying the exact spot that "should" have been occupied by their teenage idol. And here's something controversial: I can't blame Dunga for preferring a proven and experienced striker over a skillful punk who thinks his sh1t smells like flowers; it's easy for fans with no responsibility to say "call the wonderkid!!", but an NT manager who's preparing a WC list has to weight all pros and cons very carefully.

And then there was Kleberson, a decadent DM whose WC experience wasn't really a good reason for his presence on the squad... I have no idea what led Dunga to think Kleberson could be so useful, but to be honest Kleberson was far from the worst Brasilian player I've seen in WCs; that privilege goes to Ze Carlos, a mediocre rightback that Zagallo took to the 98 WC and whose participation on the tournament involved being repeatedly beaten by Zenden on the semifinal against Holland (compared to Ze Carlos, Kleberson is Xavi). I wouldn't have called Kleberson and don't know anyone else who would, but this is hardly the first time Brasil took to the WC a player who clearly didn't deserve to be there (does anyone remember Doriva in 98?).

The way I see it, Dunga's biggest failure was the way he lost all self-control in our fateful game against Holland. That day Dunga was so unsettled that he made Cuca look emotionally balanced. When I saw Dunga losing the plot like he did, I knew that he had to go, because we can't afford to have an NT manager who loses his shit like that. And I thought it was a pity, because despite all the hatred that so many pundits dedicated to him Dunga had a pretty good run heading our NT.

I couldn't care less about how much our sports media hated his guts: more than half of our sports journalists are clueless morons anyway, and most of the time they deserved the rude answers they got from Dunga. I also didn't particularly mind the presence/absence of this or that player; there were undeserving players and shocking absences in EVERY SINGLE World-Cup call-up made in Brasil on the last three decades, and I've come to accept that it's part of the package to not agree 100% with WC call-ups (it's very easy to criticize, but actually making an WC call-up that everyone agrees with is practically impossible, because we have too many alternatives to make an unanymously-approved list).

Despite all the media hostility and the absence of the media-darlings du jour on Brasil's 2010 WC squad, today I honestly only see one unforgivable mistake: losing his temper when we lost control of the game against Holland. I can accept the absence of a good player or the presence of a questionable player, and I have no problem with an NT manager who treats idiot journalists as idiots - but an NT manager who can't keep his shit together when we're behind is simply unacceptable. If it weren't for that temper tantrum, I'd honestly rather have Dunga as our NT's manager today than Mano Menezes.



Your thoughts?
My thoughts are that this is an excellent post by you. Well done. I will put something more when time lets me.
 

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Great post, Garrincha!

And people forget that Brazil won everything on senior level in that period. We beat almost every single big nt we faced. Although the team had a lot of problems with small nt's who parked the bus on defense. They also forget that we had a wonderful first half aginst the Netherlands. Felipe Mello (yes, him) made a Gerson like pass to Robinho. Posters here in xtratime after the first half said Dunga's Brazil "was a well oiled machine". The team only lost it after that big Julio Cesar mistake (that Galvão and Globo dismissed and left it all on Felipe Melo's shoulder, to spare his little buddy JC), the team lost it mentally.

My main concern with Dunga was not calling Gilberto Silva, Baptista, Josue and so on. He had to call those guys. It would be unfair and break the team spirit if he did not.
His biggest mistake was to call Kleberson and Grafite, players who had been called by Dunga one, two times and had no business being there. Instead of those two, he could have called a great AM and a striker who could actually change something in the game.

In the end, Dunga was in a lose-lose situation. If the team lost, he would be held responsible for everything and people would dismiss what he had won before ( copa america and confederations cup); and he was. If he had won, people would say it was an ugly win and it was not true brazilian football.

BTW, I always thought Dunga was too defensive for my taste and even said, after the wc, that we should go back to our offensive roots. But looking back at the 2010 generation, I don't think we really had the players to play the kind of football most love.
We lacked great playmakers and defensive midifielders who pass the ball well. Kaká, our best player, wasn't fit and injury free. Robinho was never that great. Luis Fabiano was always a hard working guy, never a true craque. Ronaldinho had given up on football on that point and so on.

And to see Globo losing its privileges was great. lol The ESPN guys should have loved Dunga. Now Mano (and his strange calls of player who are clients of his manager) is there with all the Globo support behind him, because he made Globo the official voice of the nt again.
 

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We had Alex who should have played 2006 and 2010, he would be a great bench option, an exceptional playmaker and goal scorer. But aside from him like you said we did not have options.
 

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We had Alex who should have played 2006 and 2010, he would be a great bench option, an exceptional playmaker and goal scorer. But aside from him like you said we did not have options.
Agreed. Alex should be there indeed. One thing we can really criticize Dunga is never giving Alex a chance. Him not playing a single World Cup is arguably the biggest injustice in Brazil's nt history.
 

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The thing is that Parreira destroyed Alex. Thsi same Parreira full of bs. After that 2003 when Alex was simple, the best middlefield in the world, after playing for him in that Copa America system, Parreira just ignored Alex.

When Dunga got there, Alex aged, forgotten in Turkey, labeled as a club player, etc. I can see how easy was to ignore him, even because, people forgot, he tried to lift RG a lot. His olympic team was actually offensive minded. If you notice, those ignorants of journalism still do not say "Alex didnt went in 2006" which is an absurd as big as "Falcao didnt went in 1978".
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #13
And people forget that Brazil won everything on senior level in that period. We beat almost every single big nt we faced. Although the team had a lot of problems with small nt's who parked the bus on defense. They also forget that we had a wonderful first half aginst the Netherlands. Felipe Mello (yes, him) made a Gerson like pass to Robinho. Posters here in xtratime after the first half said Dunga's Brazil "was a well oiled machine". The team only lost it after that big Julio Cesar mistake (that Galvão and Globo dismissed and left it all on Felipe Melo's shoulder, to spare his little buddy JC), the team lost it mentally.
:thumbsup:

And to see Globo losing its privileges was great. lol The ESPN guys should have loved Dunga.
True. I suspect that Trajano's personal antipathy tainted a lot of their coverage - I remember ESPN roundtables where guys like PVC and even Marcio Guedes tried to defend Dunga and were shouted down by Trajano. :palm: It probably didn't help that Dunga gave so many sarcastic/aggressive answers to Cicero Melo's traditional "gotcha" questions through the years ('pegadinhas' designed to get headline-worthy quotes, the lowest form of sports journalism), culminating in that dishonest "you wouldn't have called Pele in 1958!" attack during the WC call-up interview.
 

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My main concern with Dunga was not calling Gilberto Silva, Baptista, Josue and so on. He had to call those guys. It would be unfair and break the team spirit if he did not.
His biggest mistake was to call Kleberson and Grafite, players who had been called by Dunga one, two times and had no business being there. Instead of those two, he could have called a great AM and a striker who could actually change something in the game.
Exactly, and that guy is precisely the skillful punk Grinch was talking about. ;)
I always thought Dunga would do much better in a club than in NT. Not that he was a bad NT manager, but some of his decisions were just plain awful...
 

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I spent 15 minutes here yesterday putting on a long post - where did it go to?

Some thoughts:-

Garrincha - Excellent post but please change your stupid Grinch name back to Garrincha!

I am glad to see the back of Dunga - for the rather flimsy reason of the impression he gave - always cursing/looking at the ground and generally being a miserable pain in the arse (outwardly at least - I am sure he was fun in the camp itself).

He did a good job - winning 2 out of 3 tournaments entered into - it would have been 3 if the players had not committed suicide against the undeserving Dutch. If ever a player deserved to be bruised it was the actor that is Robben; and if ever a player was going to bruise him then it was Felipe Melo. The much maligned Melo was a good player for the Selecao. The paralleles with Dunga (the player) are apparent: single-handedly blamed for 1990 Copa elmination he even had the Dunga era named after him! He was to be banished from the yellow for two years - like Melo possible (if he ever plays again). He had one of the best debuts I have witnessed (x Italy at the Emirates) and, I repeat was good player for us.
 

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Continued........Melo and Michel Bastos would not be out of place in the current squad - we need a back up for Andre Santos if Marcelo is going to be persona non grata forever.

Dunga was very popular with the players it appears. Not one of them has come out and criticised him to my knowledge (have they?). He picked Doni for the Copa because he, against his club's wishes, for the November 20101 games x Egland and Oman. He was big on loyalty was Dunga.

Yes, heavily criticised for leave at home Ganso (he was right on the evidence of the Copa America) and Neymar (I would have taken him as a wild card).

Only Dunga knows why he persisted with Julio Baptista. If Brazil did not have someone at home with more to offer than him.............

I may have more but to summarise: he did a very good job results wise; I am still glad to see the back of him; but for hari kari of certain players he would have won the Copa in 2010.
 

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Great effort and nice post...

well for me i am a big fan of Dunga's tactics.. he know how to build a team, a team has to be built from back to front, not vice versa..

dunga's back was exceptional not in names but in style.. so close so complicated to pass them.. we beat a lot of big teams in his era, we beat Argentina, Italy, England.. but to tell the truth i was unconvinced by some calls.. Josue, Grafite, Klebeson!!!

but dunga's era was one that i like to remember, more than second's perreira for example...

i don't know why Dunga is not working now? he is a real manager
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #19
Garrincha - Excellent post but please change your stupid Grinch name back to Garrincha!
No. I got tired of using the name of a player we often talk about in here. If I were to change my nickmame again, it would be to something completely different.

Continued........Melo and Michel Bastos would not be out of place in the current squad - we need a back up for Andre Santos if Marcelo is going to be persona non grata forever.
Agreed. And another good alternative for the leftback has arisen: Botafogo's leftback Bruno Cortes has been shining brightly, and anyone who watched this weekend's Botafogo x Vasco derby agrees that this is an NT-level fullback. Sharp interceptions, consistent offensive contributions and good reading of the game... excellent player.



[tub]TsJEjXQ4-nc[/tub]

I usually avoid hyping my team's players, mostly because I don't want them to leave for better-paying shores - but this guy is miles better than Andre Santos, and better than most of today's Brasilian leftbacks.

Dunga was very popular with the players it appears. Not one of them has come out and criticised him to my knowledge (have they?).
None that I know of. It was the media - Globo in particular - that hated Dunga's guts.

i don't know why Dunga is not working now? he is a real manager
I suspect the memory of the last WC is still fresh in too many fans' minds - it's normal for Brasilian managers who fail at WCs to become "persona non grata" in Brasil for a while, especially someone who was subjected to the level of loathing that was thrown at Dunga. Eventually I'm sure Dunga will resume his career. São Paulo recently considered hiring him, but there was a negative backlash from fans and media so SP dropped the idea.
 

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But Garrincha to be miles better than Andre Santos is easy. He was benched by Thiago Feltri when Atletico won the second division in 2008 because even Thiago Feltri is miles better than Andre Santos. It is not a good critery :D
 
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