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Discussion Starter #1
Twenty-year old central defender making his debut in one of the worst defences in Europe against top-notch opponents in Bayern Munich, and he puts in a man of the match performance.

A future Tony Adams :D:D
 

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he was ok, is he starting regularly at Arsenal? as a prospect how does he compare to the others in the side, it's hard to know with all the hype around the youth system you's have there.

this isn't intended as a dig at the club, but the story with young players there is getting old. Wenger is hailed as genious every time he fields a few young players and gets away with it.

he's taken big credit for Henry and Vieira (fair enough), but these players weren't exactly deadbeats before they got to England, they just came off unsuccessful periods in Italy, but that was mainly due to inexperience (both were young), competiton in big squads, and for Henry playing out of position.

Pires was an established player and Campbell was one of the best defenders in England when they joined, and Bergkamp was already at the club when Wenger got there. imo of the stars in the team Wenger can probably take credit mainly for Cole (who is a bit overrated) and Ljungberg who admittedly was a bargain and has performed well.

my (convoluted) point is does Wenger deserve all the praise he receives for developing players. Reyes (club record transfer, i think) was famous in Spain already even though he hasn't done much before or since his Arsenal move and has nothing on what Raul had at the same age (even though he's talked about in the same hushed tones).

Fabregas is still very young but apparently he's doing well. if he adds a scoring touch to his game maybe he'll be as good as Baraja one day. he could get even better, of course, but where's the evidence that would justify the hype he is getting from people who say he'll be the best in the world, etc. i know he was in the Spain team that was runner up at the u17 world cup, but Le Tallec and Sinama won it a few years earlier and they haven't turned into world beaters or anything.

so yes, Arsenal have good young players. and it's not hard either, the players like Lupoli and Van Persie that they've been poaching were well known before Arsenal got them. sometimes in the EPL, Arsenal can even carry some of them in the team and get a result, but when Wenger fields too many of them the side folds like a cheap tent. when will the exaggeration over this man and his young charges end?
 

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he was fukin IMMENSE. :happy:

the best 20 year old defender on the PLANET, makes Kompany look like a little girl with pigtails and schoolbooks :shades:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Jern Lizardhous said:
he was fukin IMMENSE. :happy:

the best 20 year old defender on the PLANET, makes Kompany look like a little girl with pigtails and schoolbooks :shades:
He looked shattered at the end, I'm not suprised, to be honest, but did he give up? Did he f**k. He kept going, kept trying, kept tackling. That boy did not deserve to be on the losing side. I swear Senderos was like a one man defence for us at times, unbelievable stuff.

Don't want to rush him though and we can't get carried away with this one game (even though we'll hype him to the max anyway :pp), we need to make sure he is over all his injury problems and definitely use him as our first choice backup next season.

Bring another long term partner with Sol as Sol's injury problems are really concerning me, think the big man has become very injury prone. He went through with this ankle problem last season as well and barely made it through the season and the european championships according to how Wenger was putting it.
 

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Vagabondo said:
Fabregas is still very young but apparently he's doing well. if he adds a scoring touch to his game maybe he'll be as good as Baraja one day. he could get even better, of course, but where's the evidence that would justify the hype he is getting from people who say he'll be the best in the world, etc. i know he was in the Spain team that was runner up at the u17 world cup, but Le Tallec and Sinama won it a few years earlier and they haven't turned into world beaters or anything.
the hype for Fabregas comes from his perfect technique, supreme vision and appreciation of space and his unreal composure for one so young.

where was Baraja playing at 17 ? was he the team's schemer against Bayern Munich in the CL ?

no-one was stopping other coaches from buying Henry and Vieira if they were so well known and it was so obvious to everyone that they would one day be world class. :pp
 

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khimik said:
Don't want to rush him though and we can't get carried away with this one game (even though we'll hype him to the max anyway :pp), we need to make sure he is over all his injury problems and definitely use him as our first choice backup next season.

it's a shame he had that whole season off, he would probably be the finished article already now if he hadn't.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
He's their U21 captain, but no, he hasn't yet. The lad is barely 20. He and Djourou are stars of their U21 team.
 

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SM ONLINE said:
:nono: think someones jealous
jealous, of course i am. if Liverpool fans can be satisfied with two players who were hyped to the heavens but have delivered 2/3 of bugger all so far, who wouldn't be jealous.

i could be satisfied with the way Mancini had a great first year at Roma and is now just a shadow of his former self resting on his laurels, for example.

i often wondered how Houllier lasted so long at Liverpool without winning anything other than a UEFA cup (which serious teams don't give a to$$ about these days) or a FA cup. seems you's have become easily pleased, but it's not much for a club that dominated Europe at one time.

Sinama and Le Tallec could turn out to be quite good anyway. chances are though they'll remain average, which is good in a sense, because i want Kewell to keep his place in the side. we (Australia) will need him next year ;)
 

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Jern Lizardhous said:
the hype for Fabregas comes from his perfect technique, supreme vision and appreciation of space and his unreal composure for one so young.

where was Baraja playing at 17 ? was he the team's schemer against Bayern Munich in the CL ?

no-one was stopping other coaches from buying Henry and Vieira if they were so well known and it was so obvious to everyone that they would one day be world class. :pp
well sometimes it's a question of the rate of a players development which obviously varies from individual to individual. then again, Baraja may not even have had the opportunities that Fabregas does with Arsenal.

Fabregas himself may not have got a run for whatever Spanish club he was taken from (Barcelona wasn't it). English teams in general seem more willing to gamble on youngsters. he's probably done more than Baraja had at the same age, no doubt, but he's not a better player yet, and how good he was as a teenager will never really matter until he does surpass this type of player, and there's no guarantee that he will.

Henry was a world cup winner long before he ever went to Arsenal, and the fact that he had flopped in Italy wouldn't have changed many opinions at Arsenal since Bergkamp effectively had too, and was older at the time.

Vieira, on the other hand was so highly rated that Milan signed him way back in 95/96, as i'm sure you are aware. trouble is Vieira was 19 at the time and Milan was Italian champion that season with a cartload of good midfielders in their squad (Savicevic, Baggio, Albertini, Boban, Eranio plus the young Ambrosini and the versatile Desailly who Milan played as a midfielder). he couldn't realistically win a spot in the side and only managed a couple of appearances so the club let him go. nonetheless he was anything but a flop and Galliani had only praise for him, even saying that he was a complete modern midfielder who potentially could redefine the position.

that from the club who let go of Kluivert, Elber and Davids saying that they wouldn't amount to anything (fair enough on Kluivert).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Vagabondo said:
Henry was a world cup winner long before he ever went to Arsenal, and the fact that he had flopped in Italy wouldn't have changed many opinions at Arsenal since Bergkamp effectively had too, and was older at the time.
We paid a hefty sum for Henry (10.5m is a lot for a second string player!) but Wenger always knew how good he was (they were together at Monaco after all); it was always his plan to partner Thierry with Le'Sulk, Nic Anelka. Unfortunately we never got to see that! :(
 

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yes that's right, and if Vieira was so well known to be brilliant i didn't see much of a stampede for his services from clubs all over Europe, as far as i know it was only Ajax and us, these other clubs must have all had world class midfields at this time i suppose.

and anyone denies Fabregas is amazing has their eyes wide shut.
 

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Jern Lizardhous said:
yes that's right, and if Vieira was so well known to be brilliant i didn't see much of a stampede for his services from clubs all over Europe, as far as i know it was only Ajax and us, these other clubs must have all had world class midfields at this time i suppose.

and anyone denies Fabregas is amazing has their eyes wide shut.
Jern, Vieira wasn't well known to be brilliant, he was considered to be an good prospect. Arsenal fans (and some others) will say he's the best midfielder in the world or whatever, and maybe if you could pretend that proving that outside of England didn't matter they'd have a case.

the facts are however that many Arsenal fans will say that;

Henry is the best striker the world ever saw (usually)
Cole is one of the best at left back (particularly after Euro 2004)
Campbell is one of the best defenders going around (when he plays)
Toure is absolutely world class (last season)
Vieira is the best midfielder in the world (almost always)
Pires can walk on water (but is a dirty c***)
Bergkamp is a genius (but is slowly reaching the end of the road)
Reyes is one of the best young forwards around (though not these days)
and that Lauren, Edu, Ljungberg, Senderos (lately) and many of the others are all top players

therefore by their own reckoning Arsenal should be more or less dominant in Europe but they've achieved f*** all so far. the captain is part of that problem. France were winning every trophy going a few years back and then Vieira was introduced into the side and things have just never looked the same ever since.

All in all Vieira is a good player but you could build a very strong case to say that he is substantially overrated. i agree Gattuso vs Vieira was a bit over the top, but it's not an absurd comparison and let's you know roughly where things stand.

so in that sense you can see what i mean by saying that he was considered good as a prospect and more or less lived up to the level of hype around him, but never turned into this incredible player which would have partly justified Wenger's reputation as a remarkable clairvoyant.

i can say Fabregas hasn't amazed me (in the limited times i've seen him) with my eyes wide open. you kind of prove this point yourself with your Vieira example. players mature at different rates. according to you Vieira was a complete nobody at 20 (when you got him) and look at him now
:rolleyes: . it was obvious that Fabregas would be good by 17 year old standards from his performances at the u17 world cup. it wouldn't have taken much of Wenger's "genius" to unearth him.

if you want Arsenal to actually win something that matters one day though, you will need players who are great by 25-30 year old standards not 17. i'm not saying that Fabregas won't be a good midfielder, just that you shouldn't bet your house on him becoming the "new Maradona" or whatever Arsenal hype can build him up to be.

For Arsenal to be competitive again Wenger might have to get off his high horse and actually spend some money on established players, and even Henry is advocating this now. luckily for the club they'll apparently have 40m pounds to spend next season thanks to selling their soul to Emirates...
 

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I never said Vieira was a complete nobody, Wenger knew him from Cannes as he knew Henry from Monaco, the fact he got these players cheap with Emmanuel Petit, Pires and Anelka shows that he can see they will make it in the EPL football, no-one is saying it is genius but his record speaks for itself, he was the only one that would take a chance on Overmars as well.

you don't rate our players, that's fine, but i do
 

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Jern Lizardhous said:
I never said Vieira was a complete nobody, Wenger knew him from Cannes as he knew Henry from Monaco, the fact he got these players cheap with Emmanuel Petit, Pires and Anelka shows that he can see they will make it in the EPL football, no-one is saying it is genius but his record speaks for itself, he was the only one that would take a chance on Overmars as well.

you don't rate our players, that's fine, but i do
:cry: Jern, of course i rate (some of) your players. Henry is one of the best. Ljungberg is welcome at Roma anytime and Cambell (when fit) is as well, as long as Wenger will let them go for free cos we can't afford quality like that. a lot of the others are decent as well.

of the big 3 English clubs that were competing for the EPL earlier in the season, the :ass: is definitely the least objectionable. i don't support the club but i don't dislike it either. my concern is that there seems to be a considerable dose of overratedness with some of the players, but i suppose this exists at most big clubs.

lately though a big song and dance has been made about your youngsters and Wenger's ability to discover them. i find this unbearably tiresome as many of them are well known (at least in their own countries) and often will not amount to very much anyway. the poaching aspect is in fact not as annoying for me as Wenger being lauded as a "genius" as he was when his young team knocked Everton out of the league cup, for example. that is all, no disrespect intended.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
The discovery of Quincy Owusu-Abeyie IS something to be proud of, considering his situation a few years ago.

Had you heard of Gael Clichy two years ago? Nobody had, he was playing in the youth team of a French third division club!
 

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khimik said:
The discovery of Quincy Owusu-Abeyie IS something to be proud of, considering his situation a few years ago.

Had you heard of Gael Clichy two years ago? Nobody had, he was playing in the youth team of a French third division club!
Quincy; wasn't he rated highly as a talent in the Netherlands, only to be let down by disciplinary problems?

Clichy; decent. where is he now though? last years Senderos? they might both end up being world class. but then who knows what the future holds. we can't predict anything based on a couple of games here and there and a cap or two for an U21 national team.

who's next khimik, Aliadiere?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Vagabondo said:
Quincy; wasn't he rated highly as a talent in the Netherlands, only to be let down by disciplinary problems?
He was released by Ajax at age 15 because of his poor discipline and behaviour. No club in the Netherlands would even give him a trial, we took him on board and helped him become a responsible person on and off the pitch as well as helping in on honing his talent; it's something to be proud of.

Clichy; decent. where is he now though? last years Senderos? they might both end up being world class. but then who knows what the future holds. we can't predict anything based on a couple of games here and there and a cap or two for an U21 national team.
Clichy played over twenty games last season. He can more than hold his own against top class opposition - you think he was over-awed against Celta Vigo? Pfft. Or against Chelsea? Nope.

who's next khimik, Aliadiere?
I rate Ali highly but he's injury prone.
 
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