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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #1
A few years ago, when he still played for Palmeiras, Vagner Love was assaulted on the street by Palmeiras fans who weren't happy with his performance level. Manager Wanderley Luxemburgo was also attacked in an airport by Palmeiras fans when he was managing their team, and got his arm broken as a reminder of who he was dealing with: a notorious organization of fans thugs called Mancha Verde.


(fun fact: some of the fans who attacked Luxemburgo accused the manager of breaking his own arm to make them look bad!)

Well, they're doing it again! Yesterday afternoon Palmeiras' defensive-mid João Vitor, who had been excused from training because of an injury, went to an official Palmeiras store with a couple of friends to buy some official merchandise. Some of those "fans" recognized the player and approached him, kicking his car and demanding better performances. To make a long story short, when the cops arrived the player and his friends were lying on the floor while over 15 hooligans kicked their faces in. The cowards bravely ran away when the cops asked for reinforcements, the player went to the hospital and pressed charges.

It gets worse: not wanting to antagonize Mancha Verde, Palmeiras officially downplayed the attempted lynching, referring to it as an "unfortunate incident" where "an exchange of aggressions" occurred. :dazed:

Of course Palmeiras' players weren't happy to see the club take such a conciliatory position over actual acts of violence against them. The club never sent any representative to the hospital to see how João Vitor was doing, and the gist of the club's official statements was essentially "it's a pity but shit happens".

As a consequence, yesterday there was a heated locker-room argument between forward Kleber (one of the team's leaders), vice-president Roberto Frizzo and manager Luis Felipe Scolari (who has been shifting the blame for the team's bad form entirely to the players). Scolari addressed the players saying "these things happen but the lad's fine, so let's play ball". Kleber angrily asked Scolari "Did they go to your house? Because they came to mine!!" referring to a group of Mancha thugs who camped outside Kleber's house last week threatening him. Kleber accused Scolari of putting the fans against the players with his complaints about them, tempers flared and Kleber was suspended from today's away match against Flamengo (and may be punished further for his indiscipline).

I have to wonder why any sane player in the world would want to play in a club like Palmeiras if he had any alternative whatsoever. And judging from their players' faces when they arrived in Rio for today's game against Flamengo, I suspect many of them are thinking the same thing.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #3
And today Palmeiras announced that Kleber won't play for them anymore, he'll train separately and is transfer listed. Scolari demanded it, he's furious after yesterday's clash between them. The problem is that apparently the players are on Kleber's side, so Scolari lost them too. The year is over for Palmeiras.

The Mancha Verde guys must be really proud of their contribution. :palm: Why are these people still tolerated?
 

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Second Place Winner, December 2011 Photo Contest
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What DOES El Mago say about ALL this CRAP ?????

I wanna go back to Saudi Arabia and my Mercedes !!!!!!! :dielaugh:
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Regarding the crime itself, Palmeiras is only at fault for offering incentives to a group like the Mancha - something all our clubs do with their major organizadas - but of course there's nothing Palmeiras could've done to stop a crew of sociopaths from assaulting someone (it's a police matter at that point), However, the culture where these hooligans feel justified in "policing"/harassing players in their everyday lives does have supporters among several big clubs' directors (who figure that's an easy way to keep younger/irresponsible players in line). Of course, the Organizadas problem is something most big Brasilian clubs suffer with varying levels of interference, and a club can't be held directly responsible for what a bunch of hooligans who happens to wear their colors do.

The problem is the way Palmeiras handled it internally. Trying to sweep it under the rug and saying "these things happen" dramatically minimized and disrespected the very legitimate fear that the players undoubtedly were feeling. Kleber (who has been under fire from some fans since it became public that apparently he was a Corinthiano when he was a kid) did what was expected of one of the group's leaders, and spoke for them - but having had a group of those fans camping out in front of his house for a week, Kleber was probably terrified and pissed off. Scolari has a well-earned reputation of being a master of building groups and reading/motivating players, but in this instance he was completely tone-deaf and severely misjudged the situation. Kleber was attracting so much controversy lately that it did seem like he might leave eventually, but being sidelined and transfer-listed mid-October like this is bad for everyone.
 

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seems the unacceptable violence came from João Vitor, a fan said somethings to him and he started to assault the fan with the help of some friends, another group of fans saw and decided to beat on João Vitor.

I say good call!

IlnvSB5uOso#!
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #9
seems the unacceptable violence came from João Vitor, a fan said somethings to him and he started to assault the fan with the help of some friends, another group of fans saw and decided to beat on João Vitor.

I say good call!

[tub]IlnvSB5uOso#![/tub]
:palm: So reviewing the facts: An asshole angry fan approaches a player on the street and proceeds to insult him and kick his car. The player and his two friends turn against the asshole, who promptly calls a group of more than 10 of his fellow thugs who were watching across the street, and then this brave bunch of innocent citizens began beating up on the three guys. Yeah, good call... :googly: It's really a pity João Vitor didn't carry a gun so he could welcome those "perfectly innocent" fans with bullets, like the criminals they are. After all, if a dozen guys beating on three is a "good call", then opening fire on a horde of hooligans in self-defense is a BRILLIANT idea deserving of applause. If this is what passes for acceptable behavior nowadays, football players really should start carrying weapons with them at all times; they can no longer afford to pretend that they're dealing with respectable people. They're dealing with rabid animals, and rabid animals need to be put to sleep.

Liternit, these are the same people who assaulted Vagner Love and broke Luxemburgo's arm, and they are nothing more than scum. And Scolari is also worthy of contempt for taking the hooligans' side over his own player (and Kleber was absolutely right to call Felipão on that) just to stay on the hooligans' good graces. Football players are people and NOTHING justifies assaulting them like that; there is NO level of "provocation", to borrow Scolari's careful euphemism, that justifies a dozen guys kicking the faces of three fallen guys.

Scolari is pathethic and these fans are criminals, full stop. Let's see how many players are willing to work at Palmeiras next year, I'm sure there'll be a line of craques eager to be harassed by thugs on their everyday lives.
 

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Where did you see the fan kicking the car? Come on Grinch tell me, the guy was not even wearing a Mancha Jersey. You say violence is inexcusable no matter the provocation then what makes it right for João Vitor to kick a fan down with the help of 3 friends?

Ten against three is wrong but three against one is fine?
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #11
You really think the fan did nothing at all, and made no provocation? So Joao Vitor and his friends just began hitting the guy for no reason, just because he made some polite criticism? Really? Because it's not like organized fans have ever gratuitously attacked players and managers in Brasil, right? Like Scolari said, if the fans felt they had to beat up the player then the player must have done something to deserve getting beaten up by a mob, because in Brasil we've definitely never seen any cases of overly-entitled fans harassing and attacking their clubs' players and managers...

It doesn't matter if they were wearing Mancha shirts or not, the problem is with their actions. This isn't the first time players are physically assaulted by fans, and we're way past the point where it's reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to hooligans. One of these days a player will be murdered just like that Colombian NT player who scored an own goal in 94, and maybe then people will stop justifying the actions of thugs.
 

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From facts to assumption
Football players are people and NOTHING justifies assaulting them like that; there is NO level of "provocation", to borrow Scolari's careful euphemism, that justifies a dozen guys kicking the faces of three fallen guys.
You really think the fan did nothing at all, and made no provocation?
If you assault someone for a provocation you no longer can play as the victim, you can be upset at Scolari or Mancha they are despicable, but you can´t form an opinion about something that happened by just judging their behavior and not seeing all the angles.

It’s clear that the altercation with João Vitor started before the first video, the guy parked his car in front of Palmeiras´s store with three friends, a fan comes along and starts to mouth him off he beats the guy down and it all kicks from there, a Mancha guy comes and kicks his car, he takes the guy down and then a wave of Machas come to beat on them.

I really don´t see where being stupid and aggressive can be twisted into becoming the victim.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #13
We don't know what was the first fan's provocation, either. And nothing the player could have done would justify what was done to him. The mentality where fans feel entitled to harass players on the streets leads to this: these criminals can harass and offend the player at will, and if the player dares to react he apparently deserves to get beaten up.

As Scolari suggested, if the player was in any way hostile to the gentle folks who insulted him on the streets then he's not a "little angel" and therefore deserved anything that was done to him. How is this acceptable? Random people can insult the guy on the streets and if he reacts he's "stupid and aggressive" and deserves anything that happens to him? Don't football players have the right to not be harassed? I understand that all fans have the right to call players bad names during matches, but being a fan doesn't give anyone the right to walk up to a guy you don't personally know and insult him. And even if the guy you insult responds aggressively to the insult, that still DOESN'T justify a dozen people beating him up.
 

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More assumptions all I saw was João Vitor assaulting a single fan, paraphrasing you no matter the provocation violence should never be justified. And I say once you open that door anything goes.
 

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Bernard > Messi
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turns out joão vitor's friends were the initial aggressors. they thought the guy was alone and hit him and controlled him on the ground.

then they got served for being so stupid. the other 5-8 members (not even close to 20) of that 'organizada' came to help the guy and almost spanked them but they were lucky the police was already there so it lasted less than one minute...

the other members didn't even knew he was a player since he's pretty much an unknown.. .
 

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Bernard > Messi
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PS: I knew something was wrong when João Vitor declined to make a formal accusation against the palmeiras supporter...

he and his friends deserved what they got.

That's why in these days being a "macho" on the street is very stupid. YOU NEVER KNOW who you're dealing with. it could be worse. He could have a gun... But he only had a dozen of friends near him haha.

Served. :)
 

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Bernard > Messi
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well then....

too bad all of this cost us kleber and eventually its going to cost us felipao
some people are saying this is was planned...

the globo reporter that broke the news and had the first interview with joão vitor demoralizing the fans, putting the whole blame on them is close friends with kleber's manager, who's a shady person.

I know this from an inside source hehe..

remember that they tried to create an "unsustainable crisis" early in the season to go to flamengo...

he did the same thing to leave cruzeiro and go to the porks...
 
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