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I'll make this, my 200th post, and then get on with my life.

I have spent the last month or so trying to help Glen and a very few others bring about a healthy and respectful discussion - even friendship - between Juventini and Laziali.
But when even Lazia writes that Juve should be sent down to Serie B - without a shred of evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Juventus (at least to date) - it is time to declare failure.

A few thoughts:

1. Although the matter should be investigated, the idea that there has been a years-long secret conspiracy involving dozens or hundreds of people to keep Juventus (or Juventus and Milan) at the top of Serie A defies common sense.

2. There have been some very bad calls over the last few years by referees in Serie A. I repeat: I do not believe that there has been a widespread conspiracy to fix the outcome of games or seasons. But steps do need to be taken to improve the quality of refereeing in Serie A, and Juventus should play an active role in that process.

3. Laziali have a reputation for being fascists. That reputation is to a large extent deserved, because a minority of Laziali (including some of those posting on this or the Lazio board) are, in my opinion, fascist thugs and the majority of Laziali (with some notable exceptions such as oltre-la-morte) fail to come down hard on them when the thugs say things that pass beyond the realm of decent and civilized behavior, e.g., Svennis saying that he hoped that Edgar Davids had broken his leg. You cannot sit by silently and then say that it is only a small number of people involved. If you do not defend the rights of everyone, including those you hate - and incredibly to me, in Europe that apparently includes people who support a different football team than you do - no one will come to your defense when you are under attack. Mattias and Emir in particular would do well to remember that, because I think they are serving as terrible role models.

4. Some Juventini on this board are not much better.

5. I have come to have the utmost respect for Glen.

I still hold out hope that all of us will eventually become more tolerant and compassionate human beings.

Zen9

[This message has been edited by Zen9 (edited 13-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Zen9 (edited 13-05-2000).]
 

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I did write "Juve to Serie B"...
I was upset (still am) and wrote it without thinking first. A pretty normal reaction when you're upset, don't you think so? No, it's not mature, it's not right... But sometimes it just happens.

You're right, as long as there's no evidence, our accusations are worth nothing at all. But please, try to understand I/we do have my/our doubts.

If you'd like to know how I truly feel about you, please read my topic "Mancini..." at the Lazio board.

"A ROMA SOLO LA LAZIO!"

Lazia



[This message has been edited by Lazia (edited 13-05-2000).]
 

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Zen9:

I guess you just have to take into account the human emotion, anger. People always do stupid things when they're angry. People post stupid things when they're angry. Every team has fans who post uncalled for things when they're angry. I myself didn't post for a week after last week because I knew I was angry and didn't want to say anything I'd regret. I think your message was out of more than a little bit of anger, and you do deserve to be angry. I've seen over the past months how hard you've tried to bridge the gap between Juve and Lazio fans and how you've been insulted by some people. I understand how you'd think of some of Lazio's fans as fascist thugs, and though I'm not happy about that, I can't argue with you. I've stopped long ago trying to come down on them because most of the time, they don't listen. And yes it's not just Lazio fans, as you said, I saw Del_Piero_18 post something about Collina's sexual habits after your loss today. Everyone does stupid things when they're angry sometimes. Just some people get angry more often than others and do more stupid things than others. About your first point, Juventini and Laziali will just have to agree to disagree. I had to restrain myself from posting scathing replies last week to topics like "Lazio Crybabies" and so on. I do wish we wouldn't have posted topics like "Juve Cheaters" but this is a free forum, so people are entitled to their opinions. Personally I don't like the opinion that some fans have that to support one team, you must hate all other teams, and must post as many topics putting down other teams as possible. I admit I have done that before out of anger, which is why I try not to post when I'm angry. And about Lazia, you must excuse her for that one post she made out of anger. Everyone is entitled to at least one mistake, right? As for coming down on "fascist thugs" take a look at the result: the people who try to come down on them are insulted:
http://www.xtratime.com/forums/Forum15/HTML/001924-2.html

It's just not worth it. I know this is a very long post but I hope you've read it. Understand that there are Lazio fans, and fans of other teams who are willing to be civil to each other, and that we shouldn't let a few people get in our way. Also please understand that as fans of different teams, we WILL disagree on some issues. Finally, understand that some people can't control they're anger as well as others, and allow them some leeway when they make anger posts.
 

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Zen9 dont get me wrong but i thinkl your anger speaks,i mean you are really needed,your point of view always are stated peacefully with your reasons and i have to tell you that not all of the laziales are fascists or racists,in everyteam there are black sheeps,but dont treat all of us the same,please! :)

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*AVANTI LAZIO,IL FUTURO TI APPARTIENE*
 

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Agreed, Kazema! Personally I think it's better not to post something when I'm upset. I usually wait until the feeling somewhat recedes, or at least when I'm positive I wouldn't regret what I've posted later. And so far it's worked. But I understand that not everyone can do that!
And Zen9, don't ever lose hope! There's no need to declare failure. I'm sure you know better than to judge someone from just one incident (i.e. Lazia), and in fact, I'm positive that there are Laziale in the forum who've never insulted Juve in any way. But we can't help it, it's human nature that these more behaved fans tend to create less impression compared to the more rude ones. You've always been very diplomatic but the fact is, some people don't find it very easy to be diplomatic...
And I beg to differ, about your opinion that Mattias and Emir haven't really lived up to their role as moderators. As far as I can see, they're trying very hard to do their job, and if sometimes there are lapses (they're normal human beings! ;) ), they come forward to correct it. They've deleted certain posts, and also try to post topics to lighten up (Lazio) forum when things get too heated up. I'm aware that Lazio forum is very, very active -not visiting it just for a day usually means I must go to page 2 to start form the topic I viewed last. So just like censorship board, even with 2 moderators in Lazio forum it's not easy to filter everything! Even Glen has his occasional lapses, I believe. None of us is perfect...
And about those 'fascists'/'thugs' in the forum...I remember you once said that to deal with these people, you simply ignored them. To some extent we've tried to reason with them, but when it starts to turn into war, most of us decide to ignore them as well. And Mattias/Emir can do very little if those people start the war here, in Juve forum, because Glen would be the one to have the authority to delete their posts, and not the Lazio forum moderators.
Having said all that, I hope I can restore some of the faith in you...people accuse Juve of bribing the referees; people label Lazio fans to be racists...don't let all these upset you/us. Just stand firm for what you believe in, no matter what people think.
So, no hard feelings ;) and let's look ahead to the next season - hopefully an even more exciting one! :) :) :)

Forza Lazio
Serie A Champions 1999/2000
 
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Discussion Starter #7
I agree partially with the points all of you have made. I am a soccer lover and think that Lazio have a really great squad and I respect all the great teams in Italy and the rest of the world(except MU). Most Lazio fans are likely to be respectably, there are just a few bad ones. Soccer supposed to be a sport that brings people together, not fight so lets everybody cool down.
 
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