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Discussion Starter #1
While Celtic's divine and superhuman manager Saint Martin continues to spit the dummy when a little pressure is applied our man continues to go about his business with the dignity that a manager of giant football club should. While one side of the divide gets into petty arguments, throws accusations and generally throws a tantrum our man McLeish keeps it tight lipped. Rangers Football Club comes out looking all the better for it but are we biting our lip too much? Should the powers at be within Ibrox continue in relative silence or should they fight back?

Take O'Neill's coments on Ricksen after his side were humped at Ibrox in November-
'I was just asking him what psychiatrist he has been seeing!'.
His sphincter must have been going like a pneumatic drill as he realised what he said and quickly retracted it by saying-
'I didn't say that. That was off the record.'
That was enough for he SFA to decide not to take it further and David Murray to play it down-
'We will certainly not be pursuing this. There are far more important things to worry about in this world right now than comments like that.'
Fair play, we didn't want to get petty but then you look at O'Neill shouting for the SFA to throw the book at Yorkston for his comments, he doesn't have a clue.

In that same game O'Neill publically slaughtered Lovenkrands despite his own player Lennon being guilty of the same thing early in the season against Inverness. Again we said nothing. Lovenkrands was then assualted in the tunnel by Celtic players, we decided not to make an issue of it. O'Neill then, still not happy, went on to accuse Rangers of being bigots and likened it to the racial abuse England players were subjected to in Spain. This time David Murray did speak this time and said he would not allow anyone to "blacken the name of Rangers FC and stereotype our fans as racist bigots". He didn't go any further than a statement though and we all know O'Neill would have been asking for the SFA to take Rangers to task were the shoe on the other foot.

O'Neill is mostly a calm and intelligent individual but if you press the right buttons he turns into a madman. If Sir Alex was our manager O'Neill would be locked up in Carstairs by now with the mind games. We stay silent though so he gets away with it.

I just wonder if it is time the powers at our club started to defend the name with more vigour.
 

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On one hand you have mental Martin who defends even the indefencable.


Then we have Murray & McLeish who never ever speak out no matter how badly our players are treated. We need somewhere in the middle. Someone who can remain composed while making the point of defending our players against vile bad losers/winners like Martin O'Neill.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not Andy Watson then? :)
 

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McLeish's dignified silences were fine in the beginning, but it's been getting ridiculous lately. I know a lot of Rangers fans are getting pissed off with it. The middle ground between the wibbler and McLeish is definately what's needed. We can continue to leave the gloating t-shirts and whatever else to them, but it's time McLeish started speaking up a bit more. It really annoys me to watch him mumble through interviews, saying nothing and doing it slowly.
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
Not Andy Watson then? :)
Andy 'Square Go' Watson to you and me :happy: :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I think someone does have to wind up O'Neill. McLeish showed be on the phone to Sir Alex asking for advice on how to push him over the edge- it would be great viewing. I think O'Neill is right on the edge at this point in time and just needs a little push. A victory at Celtic Park would do that right enough as we saw at Ibrox in November. Wibble!
 

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Tell you what, we'll keep our 'bad loser', trophy-winning manager and you can carry on with your 'dignified' failure. Although it is easier to show dignity when you're so used to losing i suppose.

There we go, both sides will happy that way then. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
King_Henrik said:
Tell you what, we'll keep our 'bad loser', trophy-winning manager and you can carry on with your 'dignified' failure. Although it is easier to show dignity when you're so used to losing i suppose.

There we go, both sides will happy that way then. ;)
Bad losing trophy winning manager versus dignified failure. I'm not sure what you mean by that:

2001/02
League Cup- McLeish
Scottish Cup- McLeish

2002/03
SPL- McLeish
League Cup- McLeish
Scottish Cup- McLeish

2003/04
SPL- O'Neill
League Cup- Hay
Scottish Cup- O'Neill
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
Bad losing trophy winning manager versus dignified failure. I'm not sure what you mean by that:

2001/02
League Cup- McLeish
Scottish Cup- McLeish

2002/03
SPL- McLeish
League Cup- McLeish
Scottish Cup- McLeish

2003/04
SPL- O'Neill
League Cup- Hay
Scottish Cup- O'Neill
McLeish's Rangers team's trophy haul (as opposed to Advocaat's) = 0.

O'Neill's Celtic team's trophy haul = 6.

Like i said, you carry on with your dignified failure and we'll keep our European-final qualifying winner, and both sides will be happy.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
So you think because McLeish didn't go out and spend £30m+ when he arrived the first 18 months didn't count? Why would you compare 1 season of McLeish against 4 years of O'Neill? That would be like comparing the amount of trophies O'Neill has won against the amount of trophies Rangers have won in the last 16 years.
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
So you think because McLeish didn't go out and spend £30m+ when he arrived the first 18 months didn't count? Why would you compare 1 season of McLeish against 4 years of O'Neill? That would be like comparing the amount of trophies O'Neill has won against the amount of trophies Rangers have won in the last 16 years.
A manager should rightly be judged by the success achieved with his own team, the group of players he has targeted personally in the assumption that they can win trophies. McLeish done well with Advocaat's big-money players and his complete incompetence on the European stage worked to his benefit during the Seville season.

Since being asked to build his own team McLeish has turned Rangers into a laughing stock, and has proven nothing yet in regards to his ability to achieve success with his own squad of players, trailing Celtic for the SPL title yet again this season.

Can you argue convincingly that any of this isn't the hard truth? In your heart of hearts i think you realise the answer to that one as well as i do.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What kind of statement is that to make? Rangers won the treble but it didn't count because McLeish didn't buy the players. Henrik Larsson has carried Celtic since O'Neill arrived and O'Neill didn't buy him so do we discount anything O'Neill won up until this season?

O'Neill had a barrel of cash to spend for the outset. If he'd had to sell the majority of that squad in 2002/03 and start again with bargain buys then you could really have seen what a manager he was. He didn't have to. McLeish has just got on with it without complaining but O'Neill still moans that the big European boys have more money and that's why Celtic cannot compete. Double standards again. He's spent £30m+ on a team that is barely holding on to the SPL at the moment and has crashed out of Europe with a whimper. McLeish on the other hand has built a team that is competing with O'Neill domestically and done no worse in Europe at virtually no cost at all. That's St Martin for you.
 

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King_Henrik said:
McLeish's Rangers team's trophy haul (as opposed to Advocaat's) = 0.

O'Neill's Celtic team's trophy haul = 6.

Like i said, you carry on with your dignified failure and we'll keep our European-final qualifying winner, and both sides will be happy.

Advocaat's team stopped being Advocaat's team when he was pushed upstairs. Again I'll ask do you know anything about football and in turn management?

To be quite honest if my manager was a paranoid nervous wreck who makes an a*se of himself in every post match interview especially after defeat(Shocking, Shocking :yuck: ) I'd be asking questions regardless of results.

My worry is his bitter twisted rants are rubbing of on everyone at your club. You just have to look at Sutton's comments after you failed to beat Kilmarnock by enough goals two season ago. Sad really. :yuck:
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
What kind of statement is that to make? Rangers won the treble but it didn't count because McLeish didn't buy the players. Henrik Larsson has carried Celtic since O'Neill arrived and O'Neill didn't buy him so do we discount anything O'Neill won up until this season?

O'Neill had a barrel of cash to spend for the outset. If he'd had to sell the majority of that squad in 2002/03 and start again with bargain buys then you could really have seen what a manager he was. He didn't have to. McLeish has just got on with it without complaining but O'Neill still moans that the big European boys have more money and that's why Celtic cannot compete. Double standards again. He's spent £30m+ on a team that is barely holding on to the SPL at the moment and has crashed out of Europe with a whimper. McLeish on the other hand has built a team that is competing with O'Neill domestically and done no worse in Europe at virtually no cost at all. That's St Martin for you.
If Henrik Larsson carried Celtic throughout MON's time at the club then how does that explain the current league table and the fact that Celtic are in position to win the majority of the domestic prizes exactly?

Does the fact that we're top of the league (without Larsson), underline my point that McLeish is incompetent then? Considering that MON has apparently only been able to achieve success thanks to Larsson's genius.

Not that you're scraping the barrel now with your arguments or anything... :lala:
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
What kind of statement is that to make? Rangers won the treble but it didn't count because McLeish didn't buy the players. Henrik Larsson has carried Celtic since O'Neill arrived and O'Neill didn't buy him so do we discount anything O'Neill won up until this season?

O'Neill had a barrel of cash to spend for the outset. If he'd had to sell the majority of that squad in 2002/03 and start again with bargain buys then you could really have seen what a manager he was. He didn't have to. McLeish has just got on with it without complaining but O'Neill still moans that the big European boys have more money and that's why Celtic cannot compete. Double standards again. He's spent £30m+ on a team that is barely holding on to the SPL at the moment and has crashed out of Europe with a whimper. McLeish on the other hand has built a team that is competing with O'Neill domestically and done no worse in Europe at virtually no cost at all. That's St Martin for you.
Talking of spending chivo, a newspaper did a comparision on the two managers and their net spending. Think it might have been the Daily Mail. Martin O'Neill was a few tens of millions ahead whereas 'Eck has balanced the books. I'll try and dig it out.
 

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Jonny said:
Advocaat's team stopped being Advocaat's team when he was pushed upstairs. Again I'll ask do you know anything about football and in turn management?

To be quite honest if my manager was a paranoid nervous wreck who makes an a*se of himself in every post match interview especially after defeat(Shocking, Shocking :yuck: ) I'd be asking questions regardless of results.

My worry is his bitter twisted rants are rubbing of on everyone at your club. You just have to look at Sutton's comments after you failed to beat Kilmarnock by enough goals two season ago. Sad really. :yuck:
Martin O'Neill is the 2nd most successful manager in the club's history, dragged the club out of the doldrums to the lofty heights of European final appearances. He can be as impassioned as he wants to be in any interview he wants with all things considered.

I understand you lot being desperate to see the back of him taking the facts into account. As long as O'Neill remains at the helm, Celtic will always be successful - thats what hurts you the most.

Hail (Hail) to the wibbler.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Jonny said:
Talking of spending chivo, a newspaper did a comparision on the two managers and their net spending. Think it might have been the Daily Mail. Martin O'Neill was a few tens of millions ahead whereas 'Eck has balanced the books. I'll try and dig it out.
Sound, that would be great.
 

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King_Henrik said:
Martin O'Neill is the 2nd most successful manager in the club's history, dragged the club out of the doldrums to the lofty heights of European final appearances. He can be as impassioned as he wants to be in any interview he wants with all things considered.

I understand you lot being desperate to see the back of him taking the facts into account. As long as O'Neill remains at the helm, Celtic will always be successful - thats what hurts you the most.

Hail (Hail) to the wibbler.
2nd most succesful?

As I thought. Ever heard of Willie Maley? He was way before Fergus came along BTW. ;)

As for the European Final, good on him. He'll be right up there with the manager of Videoton from Hungary. :thmbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
King_Henrik said:
If Henrik Larsson carried Celtic throughout MON's time at the club then how does that explain the current league table and the fact that Celtic are in position to win the majority of the domestic prizes exactly?

Does the fact that we're top of the league (without Larsson), underline my point that McLeish is incompetent then? Considering that MON has apparently only been able to achieve success thanks to Larsson's genius.

Not that you're scraping the barrel now with your arguments or anything...
3 points ahead at the top and knocked out of Europe completely without the UEFA Cup lifeline- that's what losing Larsson means to Celtic. Since coming under the same financial restraints as McLeish St Martin has failed to bring in successful buys of his own. Now we are seeing his true worth and now the cracks are showing in him.

King_Henrik said:
Martin O'Neill is the 2nd most successful manager in the club's history, dragged the club out of the doldrums to the lofty heights of European final appearances. He can be as impassioned as he wants to be in any interview he wants with all things considered.

I understand you lot being desperate to see the back of him taking the facts into account. As long as O'Neill remains at the helm, Celtic will always be successful - thats what hurts you the most.

Hail (Hail) to the wibbler.
Second most successful in Celtic's history- is that supposed to be impressive? Jonny posted another you should look at and not to forget Mr Jansen who had a 100% record in terms of league titles.

BTW not for the first time today you have used a plural term when talking about a European final. Was there another one apart from the UEFA Cup final you lost?

You understand wrong. I want O'Neill to stay. He's not going to have it easy and I want to see him crack. I really can't wait for wibble time ;)
 

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chivoexpiatorio said:
You understand wrong. I want O'Neill to stay. He's not going to have it easy and I want to see him crack. I really can't wait for wibble time ;)
Crack what? The title-winning champagne open at the end of the season? Yeah, i'm rather looking forward to that myself. Still, so long as McLeish remains this mythological dignified loser then that's the most important thing eh? ;)

Jonny, being up there with the manager of Videoton would still place him higher than McLeish's Rangers. And in answer to the original question, McLeish is too dim to even contemplate a battle of wits against a man of Martin O'Neill's calibre. He'd come out 2nd best, but then he should be getting used to that by now.
 
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