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Discussion Starter #41
With respect I think you're deflecting. I'd be interested in hearing your theories regarding lack of CL success although I don't expect you to be open and honest about how poorly Juve play on average relative to the kind of investment we've seen from them over the years (at least when we compare them to clubs like Bayern with similar resources).
I really don't see how Juve has done poorly as they have been a 2nd tier team below real superclubs during the last decade and their CL results reflect this. In fact those 2 finals are a pretty decent achievement. Starting from 12/13 only true superclubs have won it... sure, Juve, Atletico, Dortmund and Spurs have made in into the final. But it would be strange to claim that Juve should have won the trophy in any of those years as there were always better squads in the competition. They have performed adequately.
 

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va' fancul
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I really don't see how Juve has done poorly as they have been a 2nd tier team below real superclubs during the last decade and their CL results reflect this. In fact those 2 finals are a pretty decent achievement. Starting from 12/13 only true superclubs have won it... sure, Juve, Atletico, Dortmund and Spurs have made in into the final. But it would be strange to claim that Juve should have won the trophy in any of those years as there were always better squads in the competition. They have performed adequately.
Juventus is - by definition - a superclub. They have similar structure and revenue comparable to Bayern F.C who occupy the number 2 spot on a 10 year coefficient average while Juventus are in the top 6.

I outlined that already; have you not been following the discussion?

EDIT

They absolutely do appear to be a "second tier club" on the pitch (apart from the Allegri era) for sure - but structurally they're on the same plane as any top club in the world which is the point I'm making.
 

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With respect I think you're deflecting. I'd be interested in hearing your theories regarding lack of CL success although I don't expect you to be open and honest about how poorly Juve play on average relative to the kind of investment we've seen from them over the years (at least when we compare them to clubs like Bayern with similar resources).

You keep comparing everything to Milan i.e "at least we're not Milan" but that's not anything to celebrate if we're being really honest. Milanese clubs have gone through a lost decade of sorts - it would be like me saying in 2004 "at least Milan isn't Napoli" back when Napoli officially declared bankruptcy and were subsequently demoted to Serie C.

Not that I should even bother explaining this but your point about "Milan's financial model" being "unsustainable" only holds water now after it was decided more than 10 years ago that the TV revenues would be more evenly distributed. Originally it was accepted that clubs made their own deals until this practice was overruled by the FIGC. And before you come back to me with "Milan should have prepared and planned for an equitable distribution in TV revenues" you'd be right in an ethical sense but also wrong in a practical sense just like it was wrong to expect La Liga to adopt the same model that would hamper their most marketable teams during the same time period. (La Liga has an equitable deal in place now but don't believe for a second that their top two clubs didn't reap the advantages given to them during that time).

Lastly; the equation IS binary or at least it's become more that way in recent years. It's basically the same clubs in the quarters and semis every year and unsurprisingly the same clubs featuring spend the most money on players. ManCity haven't fulfilled their European expectations (although I think there's a case to be made now that on the balance of competition the EPL title has surpassed the CL trophy in terms of prestige and difficulty) but they're basically on the cusp so it's just a matter of time for them (unlike Juventus).

I'll end with saying that maybe Juve SHOULD have sacrificed domestic performance for better European results. You say the opposite but I could make an argument that Juventus over exerted themselves to secure one Scudetto after the other to the point where the image of Serie A as a competition has been watered down making it almost unwatchable. You're happy as a Juventus supporter except in in this decade of dominance you only have two CL final appearances to show for it. Pretty sad if you ask me.


Better German born players yes but it doesn't explain the last few years. What I'm getting at is Juventus being a big institution while playing with the mentality of a peasant club. They culturally don't have the kind of winning environment that will reliably produce the attacking/fast-paced football necessary to win in the modern European era.
We play a way which works well over two legs in the knockouts but doesn't translate to winning a one-off final is the most succinct way i can put it. When you get to the final the strategic caution which is usually displayed by Italian coaches ends up putting us on the back foot. Allegri went into the two CL finals not wanting to lose, not playing to win and playing with that freedom. Something i will admit i like about Milan is they've not been like that once reaching the final, win or lose.

If your point is we've not been able to convert this era of dominance to European success the way Milan has, then i think that's pretty obvious. I think the CL count for the respective clubs shows that pretty clearly. But it's different than saying we have zero European DNA, we're among the teams which have reached the final and lost the most in history, so it's not an enviable record but it does put aside this notion that we don't achieve to some extent in the CL.

I think that's a fair point to some extent, but then again as an executive your job would be to know about profound changes like that which may be in the pipeline, and to know which way the wind is blowing on whether those policies are going to be adopted or not. I just don't think in management you can just say well they pulled the rug out from underneath us, on something that important like the potential changes to the broadcast revenue sharing agreement for the league. You have to see that coming and make adjustments.

I disagree on the EPL surpassing the CL, if anything the EPL has been in sharp decline for years now given many of the big clubs have struggled to mount credible challenges for the title. Now teams like City and Liverpool are winning the league and breaking records on the number of points won, and almost going undefeated. That's not the hallmark of a league which is balanced in terms of competition.

I'm obviously not happy with the two CL finals lol, that's putting words in my mouth. I haven't indicated that all, we all obviously want to win the CL, the club obviously wants to win the CL, they sacked Sarri after he won the league for crying out loud. But we have to be able to find a formula to win in the CL, it's clear that we lack something, to be honest i think it has a lot to do with the coaching and the insistence on the club on always appointing Italian coaches. Pirlo's appointment just showcased to what bizarre extent we are willing to take this, when there were better, more qualified foreign coaches like Pochettino who we should have gotten. And even before that, Sarri was always going to be a terrible fit but we appointed him mainly because we wanted an Italian coach.

If we can finally break out of that mindset, i think we can break through in the CL too.
 

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One last point on your argument that maybe Juve should concentrate more on the CL than the league. I think Guardiola summed up the response to this pretty well when he was asked about this with Man City, and he said that basically you can't throw away the league you play 38 games for in order to win a competition which is determined over a handful of games like the CL. It doesn't make sense. And i agree with that.

I think Milan always knew that they would never catch up in Scudetti, and so they knew their USP was styling themselves as the best Italian club in Europe. And to be honest, that had worked pretty well so they made definite calculations to pursue the CL over the league, and i just don't think that's how big teams operate. You try to win all the competitions you participate in, and sure you might put out second tier team in the Coppa Italia, but Serie A remains your bread and butter. You'd done throw it out on the off chance you get a slice of cheesecake.
 

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Bayern has largely relied on home-grown players and has been much better than Juve during the past decade.

Just as German NT has been much better than the Azzurri.

Looks like Germany is way ahead in youth development.
Germany's demographics are more favourable, last time i brought that up a lot of people found that to be an absurd proposition. But i'll reiterate it again, people who were born in 2000 are now 20 years old in 2020. If people don't think the talent pool shrinking isn't due in part to low fertility rate in Italy and elsewhere, you're being ridiculous.
 

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Germany's demographics are more favourable, last time i brought that up a lot of people found that to be an absurd proposition. But i'll reiterate it again, people who were born in 2000 are now 20 years old in 2020. If people don't think the talent pool shrinking isn't due in part to low fertility rate in Italy and elsewhere, you're being ridiculous.
yeah, it surely has an impact.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Juventus is - by definition - a superclub. They have similar structure and revenue comparable to Bayern F.C who occupy the number 2 spot on a 10 year coefficient average while Juventus are in the top 6.

I outlined that already; have you not been following the discussion?

EDIT

They absolutely do appear to be a "sec'ond tier club" on the pitch (apart from the Allegri era) for sure - but structurally they're on the same plane as any top club in the world which is the point I'm making.
isn't it a bit unfair to compare them to Bayern (who are the biggest success story outside of super-rich clubs)?

why not compare them to Milan? or Inter? or ManU?

Top 6 is a huge success for a club with Juve's means.
 

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va' fancul
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One last point on your argument that maybe Juve should concentrate more on the CL than the league. I think Guardiola summed up the response to this pretty well when he was asked about this with Man City, and he said that basically you can't throw away the league you play 38 games for in order to win a competition which is determined over a handful of games like the CL. It doesn't make sense. And i agree with that.

I think Milan always knew that they would never catch up in Scudetti, and so they knew their USP was styling themselves as the best Italian club in Europe. And to be honest, that had worked pretty well so they made definite calculations to pursue the CL over the league, and i just don't think that's how big teams operate. You try to win all the competitions you participate in, and sure you might put out second tier team in the Coppa Italia, but Serie A remains your bread and butter. You'd done throw it out on the off chance you get a slice of cheesecake.
Guardiola's point isn't anything original - Clough made that argument years ago when he was asked the same question which is way more profound coming from him (I think) seeing as how he took Nottingham Forest to domestic and European success in the span of 2 years between 1977 and 1979.

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that Juve should have thrown away anything but I clearly remember seasons where they were up big in the league and didn't adequately rest starters between weekend games and midweek CL matches

And your theory about Milan "styling themselves" as a "European club" because they'd never catch up to Juve in total scudetti is a wild assertion I think. Every big club plays the season to win, it's just that the culture to win in Italy in terms of approach is different than in Europe. Ideally you want a club culture for both competitions and although its extremely difficult you have to try because there's a lot of money in the Champions League. Juventus simply hasn't bridged that gap between competitions even after spending boatloads of money (by any standard) and I think their supporters need to face up to this.
 

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va' fancul
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isn't it a bit unfair to compare them to Bayern (who are the biggest success story outside of super-rich clubs)?

why not compare them to Milan? or Inter? or ManU?

Top 6 is a huge success for a club with Juve's means.
It is fair to compare - Juventus and Bayern are rich clubs (the richest in their respective leagues). Maybe they don't have Citeh/Madrid money but they're not far off.

Top 6 is not bad but 1.5 billion in player spending and no silverware to show for it is not good. Worst of all they struggle against attacking teams who aren't intimidated by Juventus physicality - it also must be draining for their supporters to see their team fold on a high press with no high quality possession football to resist.
 

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No one is more aware of Juve not being able to to win the CL than Juve supporters.

I can assure you of that.

I've watched us lose multiple finals, i'm well aware when we don't win lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
It is fair to compare - Juventus and Bayern are rich clubs (the richest in their respective leagues). Maybe they don't have Citeh/Madrid money but they're not far off.

Top 6 is not bad but 1.5 billion in player spending and no silverware to show for it is not good. Worst of all they struggle against attacking teams who aren't intimidated by Juventus physicality - it also must be draining for their supporters to see their team fold on a high press with no high quality possession football to resist.
Well, if we leave out the super rich clubs (Real, Barca, ManCity and PSG which operate in a different financial realm) then since 12/13 only Bayern has consistently been more successful in Europe than Juve, while Atletico has been roughly on the same level with Juve. But over those 8 years Juve has done better than all EPL clubs, even if those have larger income streams.

So they really can't be called underperformers IMO.
 
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