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I didn’t say he’s at his peak.

Of course, if you have decided that a 39-year-old cannot be a top player, the fact that he domimates the league same way he’s been dominating every league he’s been a part of for the last 15 years, must be a consequence of the league being poor.
 

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And even if he were dominating EPL or La Liga, that would be a consequence of the defenders being weaker than in the past.
 

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We gave Ferrara and Del Neri a full season, i don't see why we wouldn't do the same for Pirlo.

Unless things go catastrophically wrong in a short period which is pretty realistic.
Ferrara got half a season, Zaccheroni finished the season. Del Neri finished his tho. Also those years we were finishing 7th, less demanding times. Pirlo is replacing two managers who got fired after winning two league titles in a row. No way he lasts a full season with 33% winning rate as a Juve coach. I would be shocked if he lasts to half a season if this continues at this rate.
 

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They also weren't Andrea Pirlo, his standing is different.

It's not so easy to sack someone of his ilk who has always been a darling of Italian football.

We'll see, he also has the excuse that there have been many new additions and departures and he's had virtually no pre-season. To be honest, anyone who thought it would be just a straight up romp to the title this season is being naïve, it was always going to be a challenge given the circumstances. There will be mitigating factors if he underperforms but the questions is by how much.

There's also Ronaldo who could end up single-handedly saving his bacon this season to an acceptable degree. And who replaces him if he gets sacked?

It was just a disastrous decision from the get-go. The club don't seem keen to bring in another expensive high profile coach after having to pay for Allegri's and Sarri's severance package. And this is what contributed to this ill-conceived appointment of Pirlo.

Of course when everything goes wrong, don't expect Agnelli to take any blame. I can already see Paratici on the chopping block if this season turns out terrible, and we are well on course for it to be.

If another team can't win the Scudetto this season if we continue to struggle, pack it all in and start the European Super League, because really there will be no point to Serie A anymore.

Watching us struggle against this pedestrian Barcelona team was really painful.
 

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I didn’t say he’s at his peak.

Of course, if you have decided that a 39-year-old cannot be a top player, the fact that he domimates the league same way he’s been dominating every league he’s been a part of for the last 15 years, must be a consequence of the league being poor.
He is a top player of serie A. The problem is that serie A hasn't win European trophies for 10 seasons, a thing which you don't seem to accept. More, 15 years ago Ibra was 24 yo so I really don't get your argument. The point is that he plays in serie A, for Milan, exactly because he is old and for no other reason but Milan being the best option for him now, at 39.
 

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Worst Juve match in ages, honestly deserved to lose 4-7 nil or so, playing like old school Ferrara Del Neri days, which means this was probably the worst performance in near decade. This team completely lacks a coach. Who the hell knows what this management are doing.
With respect, you support a club that simply doesn't have the culture to win in this competition. Juventus supporters fall victim to this misconception that because they're the biggest and richest team in Italy, they're supposed to match other European teams in expectations but on the balance of play they often fall way short.

The way Juve were outplayed yesterday you'd think they were up against a prime 2014 Barca while fielding a Serie B team. It comes down to a misunderstanding of what competitive football at this level is at the point of ownership. Player for player this iteration of Juventus on paper is probably one of the strongest teams in its history but the ideology behind it is so outdated that it really doesn't matter how good the players are individually (at least in terms of style and execution).

In hindsight you could argue that Allegri pushed his camp to two finals appearances "in spite" of Juventus tradition - it's not like Juve have ever set any trends (especially in the last 20 years).
 

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I'm sorry but I stopped reading your post after your self-important first sentence not gonna waste time on a pompous "hurr durr CL DNA" post, when the issues currently goes WAY beyond that. The team does not function right now in the most basic sense because they play like they have NO coach, who cares what venue the game is played in, they litterally are going out there as 11 individuals with no clue, running into eachother and playing nervous because they have no preparation to speak of. Its a failure on magnitude level by the management, appointing a coach without a single second of coaching experience, and the predictable thing is happening.
 

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va' fancul
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I'm sorry but I stopped reading your post after your self-important first sentence not gonna waste time on a pompous "hurr durr CL DNA" post, when the issues currently goes WAY beyond that. The team does not function right now because they play like they have NO coach, who cares what venue the game is played in, they litterally are going out there as 11 individuals with no clue, running into eachother and playing nervous because they have no preparation to speak of. Its a failure on magnitude level by the management, appointing a coach without a single second of coaching experience, and the predictable thing is happening.
I understand you're frustrated and I empathize.

My question to you is: at what point are you and others going to take a step back and realize that the environment in and around the club you support isn't conducive to winning in this tournament? If you want to condense it to "DNA" I suppose we can (although I think the problems that beset Juventus are more nuanced in an institutional sense - it's not like the squad is short on potential leaders etc).

You can throw managers under the bus until the cows come home; it's not going to make a difference long term. You guys are stuck in the past while the rest of the world has moved on; how else do you explain the last 20 years with so many quality players coming in and out?
 

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Man, you live in lala land, in the past 10 years only 5 clubs have won the CL, i guess only they have seen the future, the rest of the world is living in the past. And all 5 of them have bigger revenue than Juventus. Its that simple. What is not simple and hard to understand is how at one point of time Milan were CL holders and Juventus in serie b, yet 10 or so years later Milan havent being in the CL since i dunno Bush was president?
 

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With respect, you support a club that simply doesn't have the culture to win in this competition. Juventus supporters fall victim to this misconception that because they're the biggest and richest team in Italy, they're supposed to match other European teams in expectations but on the balance of play they often fall way short.

The way Juve were outplayed yesterday you'd think they were up against a prime 2014 Barca while fielding a Serie B team. It comes down to a misunderstanding of what competitive football at this level is at the point of ownership. Player for player this iteration of Juventus on paper is probably one of the strongest teams in its history but the ideology behind it is so outdated that it really doesn't matter how good the players are individually (at least in terms of style and execution).

In hindsight you could argue that Allegri pushed his camp to two finals appearances "in spite" of Juventus tradition - it's not like Juve have ever set any trends (especially in the last 20 years).
We've been to more CL finals than Milan recently by quite a bit, so if the DNA is to get to the final and lose i can understand, but if you're saying we have zero European DNA that really makes very little sense.

So i'm not sure what Milan's CL DNA is nowadays, given they haven't even been able to qualify for the competition since lord knows when.
 

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I understand you're frustrated and I empathize.

My question to you is: at what point are you and others going to take a step back and realize that the environment in and around the club you support isn't conducive to winning in this tournament?
yeah this environment is called "Serie A"
 

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Man, you live in lala land, in the past 10 years only 5 clubs have won the CL, i guess only they have seen the future, the rest of the world is living in the past. And all 5 of them have bigger revenue than Juventus. Its that simple. What is not simple and hard to understand is how at one point of time Milan were CL holders and Juventus in serie b, yet 10 or so years later Milan havent being in the CL since i dunno Bush was president?
It's interesting you mention the 5 clubs to win CL in the 10 year time period - why don't we talk about one for the sake of argument? Let's use Bayern because they're the most comparable club to Juventus in terms of operations, revenue, and how they hoard domestic born talent for their benefit (not to mention both are the most popular clubs within respective countries).

From the summer of 2010 until now, Bayern has won two Champion League titles while maintaining a CL average point coefficient total of 318 giving them an overall ranking 2nd. In that time their gross transfer spending (we're not including net players leaving) is about 860 million Euro (give or take).

In the same time period, Juventus has won 0 trophies while maintaining a CL average point coefficient total of 215 which is not bad because it keeps them in the top 10 but when you compare gross spending Juventus has pumped out roughly 1.5 billion in gross transfer spending. When you average it out Baryern is spending close to 90 million per year on buying players while Juventus trumps them with close to 150 million in gross player intake.

Now intellectually we know that Juventus has dramatically increased its spending in the last 5 years but that's not to say Bayern hasn't splurged on players either in the same time period. The difference between them in pure transfer terms is still immense but yet Bayern is a more winning team by quite a margin.

We've been to more CL finals than Milan recently by quite a bit, so if the DNA is to get to the final and lose i can understand, but if you're saying we have zero European DNA that really makes very little sense.

So i'm not sure what Milan's CL DNA is nowadays, given they haven't even been able to qualify for the competition since lord knows when.
Milan and Inter falling on their faces in ownership terms in this time period lead to a vacuum (Milan more dramatic than Inter for obvious reasons but they've both struggled overall) that Juventus was more than happy to fill. Milan as a city left a hole in topflight Italian football bigger than any other period in Serie A's history - even bigger than when Napoli, Fiorentina, Lazio, and Parma descended into financial oblivion (combined) going back to the late 90's and early 2000's.

Basically what I'm saying is that the Milan teams handed Juventus the throne in terms of being Italy's sole representative for European football (I realize Juventus was demoted to Serie B previous to the time period we're talking about but they were always going to come back to Serie A to be competitive again - that was never in question when you're a subsidiary of FIAT).

The conclusion I'm arriving at is that with all the money and favoritism within the scope of Italian football consumption, you guys pissed away the biggest advantage you ever had in your history. You won every domestic title in 9 of those ten years basically unchallenged (with the exception of the Conte title and last season) and all you could muster were 2 CL finals appearances in that time? (Let's not forget in the second final you were thoroughly humiliated).

Juventus was handed the Italian football narrative and you've underachieved to an extent I never thought was possible; especially after spending 1 billion and a half Euro??

At the current rate, you guys aren't any closer to a CL title than both Inter and maybe even Milan which is really saying something.
 

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It's interesting you mention the 5 clubs to win CL in the 10 year time period - why don't we talk about one for the sake of argument? Let's use Bayern because they're the most comparable club to Juventus in terms of operations, revenue, and how they hoard domestic born talent for their benefit (not to mention both are the most popular clubs within respective countries).

From the summer of 2010 until now, Bayern has won two Champion League titles while maintaining a CL average point coefficient total of 318 giving them an overall ranking 2nd. In that time their gross transfer spending (we're not including net players leaving) is about 860 million Euro (give or take).

In the same time period, Juventus has won 0 trophies while maintaining a CL average point coefficient total of 215 which is not bad because it keeps them in the top 10 but when you compare gross spending Juventus has pumped out roughly 1.5 billion in gross transfer spending. When you average it out Baryern is spending close to 90 million per year on buying players while Juventus trumps them with close to 150 million in gross player intake.

Now intellectually we know that Juventus has dramatically increased its spending in the last 5 years but that's not to say Bayern hasn't splurged on players either in the same time period. The difference between them in pure transfer terms is still immense but yet Bayern is a more winning team by quite a margin.

Milan and Inter falling on their faces in ownership terms in this time period lead to a vacuum (Milan more dramatic than Inter for obvious reasons but they've both struggled overall) that Juventus was more than happy to fill. Milan as a city left a hole in topflight Italian football bigger than any other period in Serie A's history - even bigger than when Napoli, Fiorentina, Lazio, and Parma descended into financial oblivion (combined) going back to the late 90's and early 2000's.

Basically what I'm saying is that the Milan teams handed Juventus the throne in terms of being Italy's sole representative for European football (I realize Juventus was demoted to Serie B previous to the time period we're talking about but they were always going to come back to Serie A to be competitive again - that was never in question when you're a subsidiary of FIAT).

The conclusion I'm arriving at is that with all the money and favoritism within the scope of Italian football consumption, you guys pissed away the biggest advantage you ever had in your history. You won every domestic title in 9 of those ten years basically unchallenged (with the exception of the Conte title and last season) and all you could muster were 2 CL finals appearances in that time? (Let's not forget in the second final you were thoroughly humiliated).

Juventus was handed the Italian football narrative and you've underachieved to an extent I never thought was possible; especially after spending 1 billion and a half Euro??

At the current rate, you guys aren't any closer to a CL title than both Inter and maybe even Milan which is really saying something.
I don't mind the gloating about not winning the CL, i don't expect rivals to point to anything else because they can't lol. My only gripe is to keep it grounded in rationality.

I would submit that Berlusconi pumping Milan with money during the period in which they won their CLs was always going to last only so long. So now you're in the doldrums because that kind of spending was unsustainable, so it's yin and yang, it's balance.

I don't think the Milanese handed anything over to us lol, i think they faded into obscurity after their unstainable financial model came crashing down. You're making it sound much more dignified than it was lol. Also we're not a subsidiary of FIAT, they're a car manufacturer, we're a football club. What we have is common ownership by the Agnelli's owned holding company of Exor. So you're making it sound like car sales are going into our coffers which is not true, we've been financially viable for a long time and that prudence is what has produced consistency over time.

As for winning domestic titles to the ratio of CLs, it's not an exact science, many clubs have not had domestic dominance translate to European glory. Even Bayern have not been as successful until recently, but consistency ultimately pays off. Man City is a team which has not been able to win the CL despite winning the EPL and heavy investments. This notion that it's some linear equation which only affects us is misguided and plain dishonest. Also, we have to accept that Milan made calculations when they were winning the CL, that they were going to sacrifice competing in Serie A for the title in favour of pursuing the CL as their main objective. We've never put ourselves in that position and we shoudn't, that's how small clubs operate,

I have my own theories on why we haven't won the CL finals, but again we've been the CL final much more recently than either Milanese clubs. So i think you guys shouldn't be lecturing us on European DNA when you haven't even qualified for the CL in lord knows when.
 

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Serie A is unfortunately a second tier league now. Teams from second tier leagues rarely won the most coveted continental trophy the past two decades. Nor are they able to land the best players in the world, which is why this Juve side, in a historical Juve context, obviously is not one of the strongest player by player.

The comparison with Bayern is also fallacious. The discrepancy between German and Italian talent pool since 2010 is considerable. Germany has in that time period produced several top level players, helping Germany win a world cup and make it to the latter stages of euro 2012 and 2016.

In the same time period Italy has struggled to produce a single superstar (bar unpredictable Balotelli). When the best team in Italy has to buy a foreign central defender for €80m, and said defender has more potential than any defender Italy has produced in the past ten years, you know the situation is dire.

Bayern can pick and choose from a talent pool that has not been available to Juve for nearly a decade and a half.
 

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German players born in 1988 or later, who played for Bayern between 2010 and 2020.

Jerome Boateng (1988)
Mats Hummels (1988)
Holger Badstuber (1989)
Thomas Muller (1989)
Toni Kroos (1990)
Mario Gotze (1992)
Serge Gnabry (1995)
Leon Goretzka (1995)
Joshua Kimmich (1995)
Niklas Sule (1995)

Italian players born in 1988 or later, who played for Juve between 2010 and 2020.

Angelo Ogbonna (1988)
Simone Zaza (1991)
Stefano Sturaro (1993)
Daniele Rugani (1994)
Federico Bernardeschi (1994)
Moise Kean (2000)

These lists were compiled while I was waiting on my Pizza, so a player or two might have been omitted by mistake.
I also only included players with ~30 or more appearances, to avoid making the lists congested.
 

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I really don't think the Bundesliga is that much better than Serie A.

i'd put them on par.

Bayern have underachieved a lot in the CL before finally winning it, it's just that they've managed to win the times they've gotten to the final recently. We haven't.

But i think the parallels are justified.

The talent pool argument doesn't really hold water, it's not like the English teams have a strong talent pool either, they don't need to because they don't have to rely on English players. Same way we don't have to rely on Italian players either. It hasn't stopped Liverpool being successful in the CL. Even the German players you've listed, how many are bonafide stars? I'd say only Kroos. Most would not get into top sides in Europe.

It's an international game, we pick the best players who are available regardless of their nationality.
 

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Yes. The quality of the Italian players affected our NT, which infact reached its lowest point, also thanks to Ventura, but the clubs have the foreign players.

I think Juventus did pretty well in the European competitions with Allegri. They flopped with Sarri in the past season instead, but it is nothing when compared to the flops of the two Milanese clubs, in particular Milan, over the last decade.
 

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I don't mind the gloating about not winning the CL, i don't expect rivals to point to anything else because they can't lol. My only gripe is to keep it grounded in rationality.

I would submit that Berlusconi pumping Milan with money during the period in which they won their CLs was always going to be last only so long. So now you're in the doldrums because that kind of spending was unsustainable, so it's yin in yang, it's balance.

I don't think the Milanese handed anything over to us lol, i think they faded into obscurity after their unstainable financial model came crashing down. You're making it sound much more dignified than it was lol. Also we're not a subsidiary of FIAT, they're a car manufacturer, we're a football club. What we have is common ownership by the Agnelli's owned holding company of Exor. So you're making it sound like car sales are going into a coffers which is not true, we've been financially viable for a long time and that prudence is is what has produced consistency over time.

As for winning domestic titles to the ratio of CLs, it's not an exact science, many clubs have not had domestic dominance translate to European glory. Even Bayern have not been as successful until recently, but consistency ultimately pays off. Man City is a team which has not been able to win the CL despite winning the EPL and heavy investments. This notion that it's some linear equation which only affects us is misguided and plain dishonest. Also, we have to accept that Milan made calculations when they were winning the CL, that they were going to sacrifice competing in Serie A for the title in favour of pursuing the CL as their main objective. We've never put ourselves in that position and we shoudn't, that's how small clubs operate,

I have my own theories on why we haven't won the CL finals, but again we've been the CL final much more recently than either Milanese clubs. So i think you guys shouldn't be lecturing us on European DNA when you haven't even qualified for the CL in lord knows when.
With respect I think you're deflecting. I'd be interested in hearing your theories regarding lack of CL success although I don't expect you to be open and honest about how poorly Juve play on average relative to the kind of investment we've seen from them over the years (at least when we compare them to clubs like Bayern with similar resources).

You keep comparing everything to Milan i.e "at least we're not Milan" but that's not anything to celebrate if we're being really honest. Milanese clubs have gone through a lost decade of sorts - it would be like me saying in 2004 "at least Milan isn't Napoli" back when Napoli officially declared bankruptcy and were subsequently demoted to Serie C.

Not that I should even bother explaining this but your point about "Milan's financial model" being "unsustainable" only holds water now after it was decided more than 10 years ago that the TV revenues would be more evenly distributed. Originally it was accepted that clubs made their own deals until this practice was overruled by the FIGC. And before you come back to me with "Milan should have prepared and planned for an equitable distribution in TV revenues" you'd be right in an ethical sense but also wrong in a practical sense just like it was wrong to expect La Liga to adopt the same model that would hamper their most marketable teams during the same time period. (La Liga has an equitable deal in place now but don't believe for a second that their top two clubs didn't reap the advantages given to them during that time).

Lastly; the equation IS binary or at least it's become more that way in recent years. It's basically the same clubs in the quarters and semis every year and unsurprisingly the same clubs featuring spend the most money on players. ManCity haven't fulfilled their European expectations (although I think there's a case to be made now that on the balance of competition the EPL title has surpassed the CL trophy in terms of prestige and difficulty) but they're basically on the cusp so it's just a matter of time for them (unlike Juventus).

I'll end with saying that maybe Juve SHOULD have sacrificed domestic performance for better European results. You say the opposite but I could make an argument that Juventus over exerted themselves to secure one Scudetto after the other to the point where the image of Serie A as a competition has been watered down making it almost unwatchable. You're happy as a Juventus supporter except in in this decade of dominance you only have two CL final appearances to show for it. Pretty sad if you ask me.


Serie A is unfortunately a second tier league now. Teams from second tier leagues rarely won the most coveted continental trophy the past two decades. Nor are they able to land the best players in the world, which is why this Juve side, in a historical Juve context, obviously is not one of the strongest player by player.

The comparison with Bayern is also fallacious. The discrepancy between German and Italian talent pool since 2010 is considerable. Germany has in that time period produced several top level players, helping Germany win a world cup and make it to the latter stages of euro 2012 and 2016.

In the same time period Italy has struggled to produce a single superstar (bar unpredictable Balotelli). When the best team in Italy has to buy a foreign central defender for €80m, and said defender has more potential than any defender Italy has produced in the past ten years, you know the situation is dire.

Bayern can pick and choose from a talent pool that has not been available to Juve for nearly a decade and a half.
Better German born players yes but it doesn't explain the last few years. What I'm getting at is Juventus being a big institution while playing with the mentality of a peasant club. They culturally don't have the kind of winning environment that will reliably produce the attacking/fast-paced football necessary to win in the modern European era.
 

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I really don't think the Bundesliga is that much better than Serie A.

i'd put them on par.

Bayern have underachieved a lot in the CL before finally winning it, it's just that they've managed to win the times they've gotten to the final recently. We haven't.

But i think the parallels are justified.

The talent pool argument doesn't really hold water, it's not like the English teams have a strong talent pool either, they don't need to because they don't have to rely on English players. Same way we don't have to rely on Italian players either. It hasn't stopped Liverpool being successful in the CL. Even the German players you've listed, how many are bonafide stars? I'd say only Kroos. Most would not get into top sides in Europe.

It's an international game, we pick the best players who are available regardless of their nationality.
Bayern has largely relied on home-grown players and has been much better than Juve during the past decade.

Just as German NT has been much better than the Azzurri.

Looks like Germany is way ahead in youth development.
 
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