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Discussion Starter #1
Amoroso!

Here is a thread titled that he started:

"Who should GET THE FVCK out of PARMA?"

http://www.xtratime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68254


Here is a link to an exchange between he and myself. When I pointed out his mistake in using foul language, all he showed was a cocky attitude. As a matter of fact, all I ever get from him is a cocky attitude that he can care less about Xtratime rules.

http://www.xtratime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=845364#post845364


So my questions are:

1. Why is he a Forum Manager?

2. Has he ever been warned before?

3. Is he untouchable?

4. Will someone please give him a warning?
 

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This is the very thing I've been warning about for months and months!:(
I've thought that we as a whole i.e the admin team get no respect nor do our words seem to carry enough weight to many the veterans of the site.

Somewhere, somehow we have to get through to these people that they aren't bigger than the site, they can and will be replaced, by someone else. Nobody is irreplaceable, with the exception of Jan:D

Someone has to be made an example of somewhere. Amoroso is showing this type of behaviour, every decision we make is being ripped apart by Tigerheart and Psycho.

Either way we have to make a stand somewhere, yes people will not like a long time member being repremanded for acting as if they are above the rules.

I'm sorry, I've just about had enough of this crap from these sort of people. If we are not going to have rules in place and enforce them to an extent that it means EVERYONE is affected by the rules, let us have no rules and let everyone just have at each other.

The latter option would be the easiest route:D
 

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Sadly this is becoming so... That certain characters here seem to think that they are the untouchables. :( This is bad for the harmony of the board.

I think it is time to unleash the book of Rules and Regulations for FMs to them. But I am afraid that AMO would call it the Holy Bible. I can't imagine what impression leaves on a Newbie to see that the FMs themselves are disrespecting the CMs and the higher authorities up there.

Another thing for me to bring up: It seems that Tigerheart still gloats (directly or indirectly) at the fact that the CMs made a "mess" of his remark case.

Tiger: I wonder why some close the eyes for the again obvious difference: It wasn't his first mistake.
I'm really curious what will happen when other guys overstep the line for the second or third or fourth time :D. Wait, I'm not curious, I know what will happen. ;) :tongue:

OSF clearly remembers this. Are we going to allow such callous behaviour go?

paw;)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, I do, paw.

Disrespect the decisions made by members of this team by any Forum Manager is clearly an alarming trend that needs to be addressed as soon as possible. The way I see it, most FMs do respect decisions made by us, although some of them can be swayed by a few who are simply anti-authority.

On a more serious note, a FM who knowingly violates Xtratime rules and turns around and dares the Admins to ban him/her has no business being a member of our board, let alone in a FM position where many new members will look up to.
 

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I don't understand why you bother so much with what some FMs say. The three FMs mentioned, are without a doubt three of those members that are most valuable to Xtratime, and that strenghtens this forum in many many ways.

What if Amo made a thread with a foul word in it? It is not as if it was directed towards another member. At most, FMs should be encouraged to not use it, but to strip them of their title, and especially to ban them would be a great breach of rules. I am interested in getting the "worst" FMs(I do not consider Amo one of these), the ones who continuously provoke other members, and who break the rules in various way to step down. But when it comes to people disagreeing with us at the FM forum, it is the least we can expect, as long as they keep the criticism somewhat constructive.

However, getting the FM rules out as quickly as possible, and putting them into action, with a good deal of common sense in doing so, would be the wisest thing to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am not talking about a Forum Manager who makes a mistake once or twice, for we all make mistakes. I am talking about a Forum Manager who has no respect for Xtratime Admins and I seriously doubt what you've said about their contribution to this board is true, Orange. At best, their contribution is easily offset by their destructive behavior towards the board's harmony.

Please take a look at another quote from Amoroso! which might or might not have influenced one or more Forum Managers' attitude:

"As you see from this forum Steph, once a violator you go in the "black list". The Xtratime CIA/Gestapo/Mossad/KGB has files on you and they are monitoring you closely...

This forum is a discrace!"


Now, please tell me that calling Xtratime admin team "Gestapo", "Mossad" or "KGB" is a constructive term! As a matter of fact, if any regular member had done that, we would have seen many FMs calling for an immediate ban, and would get it! Tell me that is not true!

Instead, he got away without even a slightest warning!

If anyone of us ever wonders why some Forum Managers do not respect our decisions, look no further than this example.

Spare the rod, spoil the child!
 

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If a member had said the same thing, and people would call for a ban, that would certainly be a disgrace. I can certainly see why you don't want to be called the gestapo...but I do not think he meant that we are the gestapo, more that he disagreed(which he is still allowed to do) with the Violations forum, and that it went too far in certain ways. I will turn it around, and say that if he had formed his words in a more proper way, he would have gotten a lot of support from many FMs, with the way he talked about it, most FMs "washed their hands".

I do not think that Xtratime is as big as some people claim it to be, and with our current size, there is no doubt that the FMs make up a great percentage of the active members, and Amo and Psycho are two of the most active, that also know most about football, and act as good FMs that control their forums in a proper way.

I will again claim, that the time when all FMs simply listen to our decisions without voicing any concerns about what they disagree on, will be a sad day for xtratime. For the best of Xtratime, it is also important, that they voice their concerns in a constructive manner, and not as seen above in the quote from AMO. With the right approach to it, and with respect going both ways, both upwards and downwards in the system, I am sure that we can get to a better place for discussion in the future.
 

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It's not necesarily the disagreeing that is an issue Orange.
We all are able to agree and disagree on things. It's the continual sneering, and barbed comments that start to get at you after a while.

I've seen this happening for months Anders, it's not a one off thing that will simply go away. I've never made a secret of being one for firm but fair rules. The problem is whatever decision we make about anything gets sneered at.
An example is the general rules, they were up in the FM forum for about 3-4 weeks before they went "live" asking for suggestions, comments, remarks etc. Yet as soon as they go live our esteemed colleagues within the FM forum start to sneer at them, rather than offer constructive criticism.
I'm all for being told I screwed up, but if you tell me I screwed up, it's better for you to offer me a different solution rather than sneer at me.

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable;)
 

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Sometimes, they say, when one is buried within the forest, one loses sight of individual trees.

Besides one word in the title, Amo's poll is harmless and directed to a soccer club's current demise. It should stay within the soccer forum it is pretaining to, namely, the Parma forum.

When we have doubts about certain FM's behaviours, why not begin by contacting them via PM first?

As CM's and Admins, our tasks can be stressful and it is easy to misunderstand fellow members. Please remember that we are here, first and foremost, to promote a sense of well being within the forums. Compassion is still an important tool for this function, if we don't want to turn XT into a police state.
 

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Compassion is all well and good Bonita, but when do we reach a point where that compassion starts to dwindle?

I mean continually seeing someone biteing the hands that feed it is wrong. These people mean to sneer, it's not something that is a mistake. I'm sorry but people that act like that start to lose my compassion very quickly.

Another thing is when you've discussed these things to death with the same people over and over and over again, and they understand what it is they are doing wrong, yet they still give you a big F you sign, what solution do we have then?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
As we are getting so very close in publishing the new Forum Manager Rules/Guidelines, I would like to see a list of "favored" FMs so I know I should avoid them in the future. Obviously, some of us here think that there are certain ones who should be dealt with more leniency for one reason or another.

Do we need to wait a little longer so we can discuss how much compassion we should inter-mix with the rules that we have agreed upon already?

To be honest, my confidence in getting something done among ourselves is dwindling. It defies logic to set up rules if they are being modified or interpreted any time according to one's mood and passion.
 

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Maybe this should be seen on a wider scale.

To me our main purpose is not to imply and control rules. The purpose is to make this site an enjoyable place. rules can be an instrument, but they shouldn't become a purpose on itself.

This has nothing to do with favouritism or rewarding rudeness. It ha sto do with empathie and psychology: how do we deal with all those different characters that make this site soo rich.
 

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Please, my friends, take a moment to read through this thread, pages one and two.

http://www.xtratime.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68252

Put aside any pre-conceived notions and really hear what they are trying to say. Perhaps we will learn something from those we think we are on the verge of condeming. I did.
 

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Yes but correct me if I am wrong James, but I think what he's getting at is that if it was a newbie poster doing some of these offences, they'd already be banned.

This sort of behaviour is something that annoyed me before I was a CM, in fact before I was an FM for that matter. I don't think their behaviour then enhanced my enjoyment of xtratime. Yet at the time I didn't speak up or I'd face a "your just a rookie, you don't count" type of reaction.
I'm all in favour of compassion, but I'm more inclined to be compassionate for a new poster, someone that doesn't know or understand the rules that we have in place. A Veteran poster should know the rules back to front, to continue circumventing them is IMHO a bigger crime than a newbie poster having a "we hate Scousers" signature.
The simple fact is some of these people have no respect for other posters. Amoroso drove one of the more valuable members away from the Liverpool forum because of his continual stinging attacks.
I've since managed to talk him back into posting again, but it begs the question are some of these veteran posters beyond reproach?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I see your point, gOD, as well as Bonita's and Orange's. Unfortunately, that's where my confusion comes in because what you guys are saying is that although it is imperative for us to set up rules for Forum Managers (or members, for that matter), we must keep in mind not to use the rules rigidly since we have many different characters to deal with on this board!

If that is true, then I have another set of questions:

1. Will someone please make a list of what different characters are so I can have a reference in the future? Since I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, I can't differentiate them very easily.

2. Does that mean we need separate rules for each of these groups of characters?

3. Are following rules and having an enjoyable experience on this board mutually exclusive?

4. One of the reasons we are trying to set up the new rules is for consistency purpose. Before we roll out these new rules, should we discuss how inconsistent we should be with these rules?

5. The compassion that I read here, should it apply to new members also, or is it more so towards veterans who have made more contribution to the success of this site? If so, what is the criteria?


My head is spinning, for I am trying to blend in two opposing logics together and make them into one. Logic and compassion often contradict with one another. When dealing a case by case situation, compassion often comes into play. But when dealing with a mass, decisions are better made with logic.
 

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:)

Calm down James. I meant to say is that rules are ok and implementing them too, but sometimes they don't lead to solutions.

I've seen you work with "those special characters" so I know you can handle them in a very wise way.

Since we are working with people there are no one-way-solutions. That too is what makes it interesting I think:)


Andrew i know what you mean. I think it is like being with the people you know a long time and you like best. You're not soo diplomatic with them and you take them for granted. That is a bit where those "oldtimers" suffer from.
 

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You see, I see it different gOD, I see that these old timers so to speak, take their position on the board for granted.

I'm not saying ban Amoroso for this offence, what I'm saying is it's hypocritical of them asking for people like Russell to be banned when they've benefitted from the same level of leniency.

I mean if we dare to ban a long term member it's treated with an outcry, look at the Marco issue, Jan banned him, discussed it with Marco, yet they all come screaming saying it's an outrage blah blah blah.

We've been more consistent in decisions since the time that of the Frank-Roy case. I've tempered my own thought process by the leniency we showed there. If I'm wrong for showing compassion to newbies, and we should be banning them without giving them the benefit of the chance, then that should be applied to the rest of the members as well, including FM's
 

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RazorUK said:
You see, I see it different gOD, I see that these old timers so to speak, take their position on the board for granted.

I'm not saying ban Amoroso for this offence, what I'm saying is it's hypocritical of them asking for people like Russell to be banned



True but that is just people, I'm afraid.
 

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So the upshot here is IMHO, that all members should be treated the same. If we are going to ban a newer poster for 1-2 offences, that should also be applied to the longer standing members.

I couldn't care less if they've been here for 5 minutes, 5 months or 5 years. If they break the rules they should have them applied in the same manner.

There should be no difference between a set of new posters and a group of old legends on the board.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Believe me, I am at an age where pampering younger kids has become one of my favorite passtimes! :)

The way I see it, even pampering has a limit. Amo is not that much younger than yourself, Geert, or Orange, or Bonita for that matter. But your maturity is like day and night when compared with his!

As Andrew has already pointed out, we welcome disagreement as long as we are working towards make this board a better place, not just sneering remarks because it gets old very fast.

And I dare to venture to say that each and everyone of this team knows the difference between the two!
 
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