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Discussion Starter #1
Just like with Man U there seems to be a kind of hype around Liverpool, and to me it feels like they are nowadays generally considered members of the exclusive group of clubs that have a special magic attached to their name, such as Real, Barca etc... what's interesting about this is not the hype itself, but the potential the club has to fulfill it in reality. It can be argued that Man U's hype is real, and they have the silverware to back it up. What I want is to ask Liverpool fans whether you feel the hype around your team is justified. Will Liverpool keep belonging to the top, and more important, will they win the league anytime soon? Is this Liverpool team good enough, does it have he star players (are Owen and Gerrard enough when it comes to decisife quality?) and the team potential to belong to the category of "super clubs" that both media and people in general admire/hate so much?

One factor that can't be overlooked is Liverpool's history and all the titles the club has won in the past. That surely contributes to its reputation. But after the "triple" last year there seems to be some kind of world wide agreement that Liverpool are once again a huge force in european football. I'm not here to say they aren't, but we have to acknowledge that the so called triple didn't include neither the domestic league nor the Champions League, and that the win against Arsenal in the FA cup final wasn't really what you would call a "deserved" one. Still, it was considered a wonderful season by Pool fans and the media and was followed up by a win against Bayern Munich in this European Super Cup thingy. I'm not saying Pool fans shouldn't be proud of this, but I am asking if it is enough to belong to the best among the best.

Another interesting thing is that, alongside the constant praise that this Liverpool side receives, there has also been a lot of talk about the style of football. While Man U are generally thought of as entertainers as well as result makers, Liverpool have been criticised for playing boring football that might impress the tactical analysts but not the common football spectator. How does this match with the hype around Liverpool? Can a super club, which Liverpool is on the reputation level, remain a super club if it bores the hell out of both spectators and opponents? (This would be a good question to ask Juventus supporters as well :D ) One might say that if a club gets great results it doesn't matter how they play, but the obvious follow-up question would then be if the results Liverpool have had are enough...
 

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marceljasen said:
Just like with Man U there seems to be a kind of hype around Liverpool, and to me it feels like they are nowadays generally considered members of the exclusive group of clubs that have a special magic attached to their name, such as Real, Barca etc...

what special magic is attached to Barcelona? They're an overrated club. One European Cup as a return on the number of Championships they've won doesn't even allow them to be compared with the top clubs in England (barring Arsenal);)
 

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To all Liverpool Fans out there ...

Rejoice...

For we have bounced back from the 90s and suddenly we are getting so much attention from all corners...

The criticisms and all...

Pathetic :cool:
 

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Hi everyone..

1. I totally agree with Fred... Barca have been overrated recently.. I can't say that since the treble, Liverpool haven't.. but Barca were considered a super house of football even before Ronald Koeman's FK at Wembley against Sampdoria gave them the European Cup!!

2. marceljasen, with Liverpool.. why the hype?? easy.. for a team of Liverpool's history, acheivements and expectations.. it was only a matter of time before they started moving back up the ladder to the top.. and with the treble coming a bit earlier than expected.. expectations in the team grew to a huge level.. is it justified?? I think so.. any successful sporting organisation goes through valleys (or downs) where they have to start rebuilding and reorganising themselves (for example, the Green Bay Packers in the NFL or Man U in the late 80's started their rebuilding scheme to get back to the top).. the same thing happened to Liverpool.. I think the rebuilding actually started with Souness when he reinvented the youth system.. Roy Evans tried to stay on the same wavelength but giving the fans the entertainment they deserve.. but failed to bring Liverpool back.. Houllier started to do what others didn't.. he went back to the old drawing board.. and started solving our weaknesses one after the other.. 1st up was the defence.. and 2nd came goal keeping.. who can compare Henchoz-Hyypia and Dudek to the likes of Mike Hooper (or Calamity James) Phill Babb and Torben Piechnek!!! with solving those two issues.. we became one of the most solid teams at the back.. that's nearly 60% of the problem gone.. with so little goals going in.. he can NOW start working on the offensive front.. as mentioned in another thread.. we're all starting to notice the similarities between the Liverpool we see and France in '98.. Now I go back to the main question.. with a team that now is grinding out great results and winning again.. wouldn't you call them a great team (or super team).. well I wouldn't say super.. but we're getting there.

3. As for the ineffective or boring tactics.. I do agree that we went through a spell when we were playing very boring stuff.. but since the FA Cup loss to Arsenal.. the only game that Liverpool have played that looked close to that was the Bara game at the Nou camp!!.. and there are times when it is wise to play that way to gain a certain result.. instead of going for a more beautiful approach and ending up with NOTHING.. I don't know if you'd call your Lazio entertaining.. as this year they've been a big bore to watch.. I nearly slept through parts of the Lecce game.. and against Juve.. both teams didn't deserve the hype set against them if it's entertainment that makes a team deserve hype or not..

4. One small point.. Bayern were the bore of the world last year.. and ended up with the CL.. Valencia were the 2nd most boring (very defensive minded) and ended up with 2nd place.. !! (don't you think I'm getting somewhere??).. I really don't want to get into the whole Italian teams tactics or Italian teams in Europe thing.. but then again.. Italy as a NT play a defensive styled game that is so similar to the current Liverpool.. Has ANYONE been able to say Italy do not deserve hype before this WC??

5. At least to us, Liverpool are the greatest team.. we were simply a giant taking a nap for a decade :) and from what we (and nearly everyone else) can see.. we're certainly waking up and getting back to where we belong :D

YNWA
 

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Discussion Starter #5
About Barca, I think their place among the so called super clubs has been ensured over the years by the many domestic leagues they've won in the 90's, the way they played under Van Gaal, and the fantastic and spectacular players they have in their team.

Think of it this way - in order to deserve the hype a club should at least have one of the following: (heavy) silverware won recently, a style of play that amazes people, or mega-stars in the squad. Preferebly it should have all three. The question is if Liverpool has any of these things...(History plays a part also, in the actual creation of a hype, but not necessarily in the justification of it)

Yasir, my point was that maybe Liverpool's history is the only reason they are being so hyped up right now. As I said, and you might agree, last years treble lacked a "heavy" title, but still created a state of euphoria both among fans and media in general. And of course Pool's history makes you think that great things are coming as a result of the long rebuilding process, and the current team does look very good. You might be getting there, but are you there yet?? My answer would be no :) I'll gladly admit I don't understand in what way this Liverpool team resembles France in 98, but do fill me in.

Bayern were perhaps the bore of the year but, as you yourself said, they won the CL. Same could be said about Juve, although it does seem like they can't manage to win anything anymore :D The italian NT is being hyped because it has so many fantastic names, no matter what style of play they will use, not to mention that they usually do pretty well in the big tournaments. All this has to count for something right? And yeah Lazio have played awful this year, I've always been the first one to point that out. But I I haven't experienced any hype around Lazio, and a couple of years back we were kinda in the same position as you are now . We had won a number of trophies but not the ones that really mattered. Only difference is that we eventually got the domestic league. If Pool wins it this year... :)
 

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marceljasen said:
About Barca, I think their place among the so called super clubs has been ensured over the years by the many domestic leagues they've won in the 90's, the way they played under Van Gaal, and the fantastic and spectacular players they have in their team.
What Barca won in the 90's.. Liverpool won in the 70's and 80's.. as for the style of play under Van Gaal.. NO ONE LIKED IT!!! Not even Barca fans!! How many times did you hear the barca fans asking for Van Gaal to go??!! I for one know that he wasn't popular at all with the fans for his style of play and for the huge number of dutch players he brought in while off loading good Spaniards.. so I guess that does deal with most of the three reasons stated above!! But I have to hand it to Barca.. they do have a team filled with stars.. then again.. they're proving that having a bunch of stars doesn't mean playing well or winning trophies.. I remember the CL of 94 (I think) when Barca had nearly everyone popular on the planet in their side (from Koeman to Zubizaretta to Nadal to Stoichkov to Romario).. and in a memorable final against Milan (who didn't have the type of stars Barca boasted).. Milan thrashed them 4-0!!

marceljasen said:
Think of it this way - in order to deserve the hype a club should at least have one of the following: (heavy) silverware won recently, a style of play that amazes people, or mega-stars in the squad. Preferebly it should have all three. The question is if Liverpool has any of these things...(History plays a part also, in the actual creation of a hype, but not necessarily in the justification of it)
Sorry but I disagree.. silverware is important.. but not just recently.. example.. Utd waited 26 years or so to start winning the title again (correct me if I'm wrong Fred).. in between.. they won league cups, FA Cups and the Cup Winners Cup.. but no title (sounds familiar).. and EVERY YEAR, people (especially Utd fans) would say it would be their year.. and the hype and expectations were sky high.. (which is only natural).. what happened.. they started rebuilding the team in 1988.. and won their first title in 92-93 to dominate the 90's.. but before that they were still considered as a SUPER team..

marceljasen said:
Yasir, my point was that maybe Liverpool's history is the only reason they are being so hyped up right now. As I said, and you might agree, last years treble lacked a "heavy" title, but still created a state of euphoria both among fans and media in general. And of course Pool's history makes you think that great things are coming as a result of the long rebuilding process, and the current team does look very good. You might be getting there, but are you there yet?? My answer would be no :) I'll gladly admit I don't understand in what way this Liverpool team resembles France in 98, but do fill me in.
Yes, we didn't win the title last year.. but why are people considering the 3 cups of last year (not to mention this year's 2 cups) as worthless?? I can understand why the Charity Shield isn't considered as a "Real" trophy (it's actually considered as a season opener or pre season warm up).. but the other 4 were worth every second of it.. Yes.. Arsenal out played us in the FA Cup final.. but to hold out like we did.. and still be able to nick 2 goals was something that most teams wouldn't have even thought of!! and the UEFA Cup is a major European trophy.. it comes 2nd to the CL.. but being 2nd to the biggest club tournament on Earth isn't bad at all.. especially when we took Barca, Porto and Roma out on our way to Dortmund!! As for the similarities with France.. go to the thread "Are we the most knowledgable fans? (long rant)".. I think it's mentioned there... :)

marceljasen said:
Bayern were perhaps the bore of the year but, as you yourself said, they won the CL. Same could be said about Juve, although it does seem like they can't manage to win anything anymore :D The italian NT is being hyped because it has so many fantastic names, no matter what style of play they will use, not to mention that they usually do pretty well in the big tournaments. All this has to count for something right?
Which does prove my point that the entertainment level does not really make a team a great or super club or not.. Bayern are considered one of the big guys.. and their style is more boring to watch than watching a race between a snail and a caterpillar!! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Good points :) I remember that Van Gaal was not popular at all during long periods. However, this does not take away what he won (two league titles in a row). Nor does it take away the fact (in my opinion and I'm sure many would agree) that they played some of the most exciting football in the world. Rivaldo, Figo and Kluivert alone meant enough star quaility to beat almost every other team in the world in that department. So, no matter how unpopular he might have been, Barcelona no doubt had one of the most spectacular teams in the world and they usually played accordingly. No one is saying that having stars will automatically get you titles, but look at Milan back when they beat Barca 4-0. They were a real force, tactical monsters and won the italian league almost on subscription ;)

Thing is, Liverpool's league titles date waaay back... the 70's and 80's, you could just as well be talking about the dinosaur ages :D I'm not saying silverware is everything, I am saying that you should have some heavy silverware to justify your place among the biggest clubs. How long Man U went without a title isn't really important at the moment, as they have the last decade with titles lined up to prove they deserve their reputation today. (Actually, I would argue that Man U are a bit overrated too, but that's another story)

Even though the UEFA Cup, League Cup and FA Cup are nice titles (specially the last one), they do not count as much as the two heavyweights. We all know this :)

It's well known that you can win without playing fantastic, offensive football. But you have to win! All I'm saying is that so far Liverpool have not won enough, do not have enough stars, and don't play attractive enough to deserve the hype they have around their name. This could change as soon as after this season, but it will require a change in at least one of these aspects. IMO :)
 

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marceljasen said:

Thing is, Liverpool's league titles date waaay back... the 70's and 80's
89-90....its May 1990 that we lifted the throphy :D
 

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Saying Barcelone are a great team because they played great fotball is like saying the Newcastle team of the mid 90s was a great team. Sure they played the most exciting attacking football around but it was kamikazi football. The defence sucked and they caved in when it mattered, like Barcelona. Barcelona are completely overrated on a European and i even think Man U are as well. For all their titles they've only won 1 CL. Liverpool won 4 in 8 years. Man U consistently get into the QF but how many years have they been in the CL? This is Liverpool's first year in the CL in a while and we've managed to get to the QF. We've played organised football that has got us the results and at the moment thats all that matters. If we're playing this kind of football in a couple of years i won't be happy but at the moment its working.

I think the Uefa cup is worth a lot as well. We beat quality teams to get that trophy so we deserve praise. And why are we being hyped up now? Well because it looks like we're strong in Europe and we're playing the kind of football that makes strong teams (apart from the caning we got tonight).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If you're refering to Newcastle under Keegan, I'd say it's not a good comparison. First of all, Barcelona actually won their league. Second, the players Keegan had in his team don't even come close to match the star quality that Barcelona had. How many CL titles Liverpool won in the distant past is for sure interesting and impressive in a historical perspective, but it doesn't mean very much right now.

I'll repeat that I'm not saying Liverpool are a bad side. On the contrary, I think they are a very good side. But there is a "gap" between how good they actually are and how good they are perceived to be by people in general, i.e the hype I have been talking about. This is what I'm getting at.

About tonights game, you were unlucky to have Owen miss those chances. But Leverkusen also put in a very impressive performance.

89-90....its May 1990 that we lifted the throphy :D
ok, fair enough. You have won in the 90's :D
 

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I know Newcastles a poor example but on a smaller scale i think it shows what Barcelona have been like. They might play some of the best football around but they are inconsistent and cannot challenge significantly on a higher level. Newcastle were very very exciting but they were inconsistent and like Barcelona were a bit of a jekyll and hyde team. U never knew which team was gonna come out - the masters of excitement and skill or the suicidal, defenceless shambles.

I don't think Liverpool have been overhyped, at least not here in England. Its just that Liverpool are very good away from home (not this time though) and are good in knock out competitions because of this. Here in England a lot of people still think Arsenal and Man U are favourites for the PL. Even the bookies have Man U at lower odds to win the PL despite the fact we have easier games and can get more points. A lot of people IMO are not hyping Liverpool up because of their style of play but they should know that this is a developing team led by a very experienced and successful manager.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
lskydiver said:
U never knew which team was gonna come out - the masters of excitement and skill or the suicidal, defenceless shambles.
Suididal defenceless shambles? I am getting Tony Peacock flash backs :D

On a serious note, what did Houllier's prior success consist of? All I know is that he coached the French NT but failed to qualify for the world cup and slammed Ginola for criminal behaviour after a slip-up against Bulgaria...

Maybe they aren't that hyped up in England, you'd know that better than I would. It does seem reasonable though that Arsenal and Man U are ranked (at least a little) above Liverpool, considering they have been nr 1 and 2 for a number of years in a row now...
 

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marceljasen said:
If you're refering to Newcastle under Keegan, I'd say it's not a good comparison. First of all, Barcelona actually won their league. Second, the players Keegan had in his team don't even come close to match the star quality that Barcelona had. How many CL titles Liverpool won in the distant past is for sure interesting and impressive in a historical perspective, but it doesn't mean very much right now.

I'll repeat that I'm not saying Liverpool are a bad side. On the contrary, I think they are a very good side. But there is a "gap" between how good they actually are and how good they are perceived to be by people in general, i.e the hype I have been talking about. This is what I'm getting at.

About tonights game, you were unlucky to have Owen miss those chances. But Leverkusen also put in a very impressive performance.
marceljasen, with all due respect.. I'm sorry but you've put your own standards that you are basing "hypeness" on :) To you.. history is a minor factor.. and silverware doesn't mean much if it was from more than 10 years.. for you, the only silverware that does matter are the league title and CL.. if that's the factor.. I guess Bayern (1 CL and a zillion Bundesligas!! , Real Madrid 2 CL's and a couple of La Ligas.. and actually, Juve!!) are the only real clubs worth the hype!!! come on!! :D and a team should not be measured by the number of stars.. or else a team like Inter should be on top of the world.. and I'd have to go back to the Barca-Milan game.. where comparing the Barca team to Milan was like comparing a World XI to a regular NT.. !! and we all know the outcome.. sorry mj, I really don't agree with your criterias in the first plays :) so to me, you can switch EVERY "don't mean anything" you've written to "means something" :) It's a typical difference of opinion :)



marceljasen said:
ok, fair enough. You have won in the 90's :D
I was gonna just say what BOSH just pointed out :D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yasir, come on :) What I did was to put some criteria on the table, that could work as an indication of whether a "hype" is justified or not. Sure they were my own criteria and not some objective measurements of the level of a club, but what do you want? Objective criteria does not exist. I welcome you to present your own "standards" :) I mentioned titles, star quality and style of play, right... and argued that liverpool at the moment dont have enough of any of this. But they are damn close though. I never said the treble didnt mean anything, i only said it didnt mean as much as it was blown up to be.

The reason I don't value history much is because I'm trying to discuss the situation right now. The reason I rate league and CL titles higher than domestic cups and UEFA Cups is because they are generally the toughest to get and they mean much more.

The Barca-Milan game was a fight betwen two excellent teams - that one of the teams had more stars than the other didn't mean too much in the end, as we all saw. Tactical ability and team play can outshine and beat star quality, no doubt about it. But it is only when this happens and results in heavy titles, that you can say that a "tactical" team belongs to the category of super-clubs. IMO.

Utopia, not at all :)
 

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I agree Liverpool are over hyped in England.At the start of the season they were second favourites behind Manchester for EPL and many media pundits tipped them.I believe this is down to their glorious history and also many favourite Englishmen Owen,Gerrard and Heskey playing for them.The English Media is obsessed with English players.Even last two CL Finals the main headlines were about McMananm and Hargreaves.Sheringham last year was first English player of the year for eight years but the English Media don't seem to recognise this.
 

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I don't think Liverpool were overhyped in England. I found that a lot of people were saying Man U, Arsenal and Leeds were going to be the main challengers at the start of the season because Liverpool hadn't made any major signings. Most people had never heard of Riise and didn't know what to expect of him.

But i do think we overhype teams in our country. Loads of people were saying Arsenal had a real good chance of winning the CL at one point and they were being hyped up. Man U are always hyped up in Europe but have never had the success in Europe like Liverpool have. I think Liverpool have been hyped but many people discount them because of our style of play. And England are always completely hyped. That realy pisses me off. England aren't the team everyone thinks they are. They rely too much on Owen, Beckham, Scholes and Gerrard.
 

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Agree with you on lots of points there, lskydiver. Also, mj, I think you should indeed take history into account when talking about super clubs. Thats because it's often the past glory that brings about a belief that a particular team is capable of reaching great heights in thew future. Just because Liverpool won the CL 4 times before, many think Liverpool's re-entry to the competition after so many years signals the comeback of a giant. And so far, we haven't faired all that badly, have we?;) Arsenal is playing in CL for the last few seasons and they couldn't reach the quarters whereas we did it in our first attempt. This just goes on to show the POTENTIAL that we have and any club that is hyped SHOULD have.
Take for example Mallorca. As far as I know they played in the CL this season for the first time (I maybe wrong). But noone really expected (or still expects for the future for that matter) them to make a serious impact in the Champions League. Its because they don't have a magnificent past like Liverpool does for the media to be crazy about. On the other hand, not many were surprised to see Liverpool in the quarters after playing in the competition after 18 years. That is why I think the hype is justified. IMO history is pivotal in determining the hype surrounding a club. Just my opinion though..........:)
 

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There is way to much hype about Liverpool.

They were second favourite behind Manchester at the start of the season in the betting. The "spectacular" treble was the reason behind this.

Wow, Liverpool made into the quarter finals... and lost to Bayer Leverkesun, the team Arsenal be 4-1 and drew 1-1, Liverpool lost 4-3 on aggregate. And we were unlucky because Deportivo and Bayer had their wn little scheme, there was no such scheme against Liverpool. Liverpool ended up with 7 points and Arsenal with 7 points.

The treble last season was the biggest bull. Worthington cup, great! At least it counts as part of the "treble":rolleyes:. The FA Cup, we had about 200 shots on goal to Liverpool's 2, a much deserved victory there. And the UEFA cup, OK, Liverpool deserved this one.

Liverpool are the most Boring team. Look at all their away matches, a lot of lucky 1-0 wins where they have had far less chances. Liverpool are lucky to be where they are, and with their luck they could somehow manage to win the Premier League, which will add to this hype.

The bottom line is, if you take away Liverpool's luck and hype, they are nothing compared to Arsenal an Manchester. Liverpool may be up there in the rankings because of their cup wins, but if they want to live up to the hype they need to win the league convincingly, playing exciting football, like Arsenal do, not this scrapy boring football.
 

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G'day said:
There is way to much hype about Liverpool.

They were second favourite behind Manchester at the start of the season in the betting. The "spectacular" treble was the reason behind this.

Wow, Liverpool made into the quarter finals... and lost to Bayer Leverkesun, the team Arsenal be 4-1 and drew 1-1, Liverpool lost 4-3 on aggregate. And we were unlucky because Deportivo and Bayer had their wn little scheme, there was no such scheme against Liverpool. Liverpool ended up with 7 points and Arsenal with 7 points.

The treble last season was the biggest bull. Worthington cup, great! At least it counts as part of the "treble":rolleyes:. The FA Cup, we had about 200 shots on goal to Liverpool's 2, a much deserved victory there. And the UEFA cup, OK, Liverpool deserved this one.

Liverpool are the most Boring team. Look at all their away matches, a lot of lucky 1-0 wins where they have had far less chances. Liverpool are lucky to be where they are, and with their luck they could somehow manage to win the Premier League, which will add to this hype.

The bottom line is, if you take away Liverpool's luck and hype, they are nothing compared to Arsenal an Manchester. Liverpool may be up there in the rankings because of their cup wins, but if they want to live up to the hype they need to win the league convincingly, playing exciting football, like Arsenal do, not this scrapy boring football.
That's a big load of bull !! If Arsenal hadn't blown their chances playing Juve's 2nd team!! they would have been in the QF.. Don't blame your team's blunders on other teams.. Yes.. you guys thrashed Bayer 4-1 (and that was a GREAT game to watch).. but you failed to deliver when it mattered the most.. Atsenal had the chance to qualify 2 ROUNDS before the end of the 2nd phase.. but a home loss to Deportivo (hmmm.. another scheme there? :rolleyes: ) and the loss to Juve and you're out.. !! You guys wouldn't have needed a result from Depor against Bayer if you'd beat them at Highbury!!

As for the treble.. hmmm.. I wonder.. would you have been saying the same thing when Arsenal won the FA Cup and League Cup in 92-93?? Just a reminder.. you guys were as boring as hell in those days.. and you were on top of the world after that.. So I'd guess we have the right to hail our team and expect a lot after going one step further and winning a UEFA Cup with the above trophies.. Oh and about Liverpool FA Cup win last season.. don't blame us for making use of our two chances!! Blame Henry and Ljundberg for missing their chances!! :) I'm serious.. it's only far for us to look at it this way.. Liverpool made 100% of their chances.. while Arsenal made what?? 5%?? In terms of creating chances and possession.. yes you guys played better.. but in terms of taking chances.. Liverpool were on top.. I guess the score line already says that..

I agree with the guys saying that English teams are actually always a bit hyped by the media.. kinda like Italian teams.. only not to the same magnitude!! I think that's what I like about German teams.. who would have bet that Bayer Leverkusen would be in the semi finals at the start of the season?? I'd say no one in England, Spain or Italy (actually, anywhere but Germany).. and yes.. the English NT is over hyped.. but I'd say it's the fan pressure that does create that hype..

mj :) I think what Utopia said was spot on.. the historical acheivements do count.. why?? well I guess Utopia explained that.. as for the rest of your criteria.. I could agree we're still not there in terms of star quality or style of play :) But I disagree about the Milan - Barca final though :) :D :tongue:
 
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