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Discussion Starter #1
Lineker said in an interview with the argentinian newspaper Ole, that everybody in England thinks Maradona was better than Pele. Is this true? How does england view this Pele x Maradona thing?
 

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brasileiro said:
Lineker said in an interview with the argentinian newspaper Ole, that everybody in England thinks Maradona was better than Pele. Is this true? How does england view this Pele x Maradona thing?
Yeah, Culed posted that in the future players forum. I disagree, strongly. The Cheat was one of a kind no doubt but for me Pele was on another level. I can see him not getting respect because he didn't play in europe and it seems so long ago now, but those aren't very good reasons.

Pele>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone Else

I will say that although Lineker isn't the sharpest and the adverts are a negative, he is a legend and hates Sven... so he's alright in my book. :thumbsup: :D
 

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50/50 i'd say.

obviously the younger generation saw more of Maradona, also a lot of old guys talk about Puskas and Eusebio because of their great exploits in England wheras Pele's WC wasn't the best.

all the players who played against Pele though say he was.

in summary i don't know. :D but Lineker is hardly the spokesman for the nation and i don't know where he got his stats from.
 

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Its not everybody, but i think its when you were born that determines who you think is the better player. Lineker was playing when Maradona was so thats maybe his own opinion. Not seeing either of them in there day i always grew up being told that Pele was the better player i dont even remember him being compared to Maradona.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Gordy said:
Not seeing either of them in there day i always grew up being told that Pele was the better player i dont even remember him being compared to Maradona.
That what I thought. Because my father, he is 55 years old, used to travel a lot to England in th 80's and 90's on vacation. And he said to me that most people prefered Pele. That when he said he was brazilian, people would say: "Brasil of Pele, the greatest ever" and stuff like that.
He said that english people admire Brazilian football a lot and that he felt that the english was one of the people that likes us the most.
BTW, I respect english football a lot as well.

PS: I watched two weeks ago again, the Brasil x England game in 70 wc, and Bobby Moore was really a special player, maybe the best CB ever.
 

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Brazilian football is definitely admired the most, how could it not be?

not just for the players, but the fans and all the colour they bring.

whenever there is a world cup we get the BBC doing these montages with samba and stuff for minutes on end, we certainly don't get this for the Argies, Italians and Germans.:D
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Jern Lizardhous said:
Brazilian football is definitely admired the most, how could it not be?

not just for the players, but the fans and all the colour they bring.

whenever there is a world cup we get the BBC doing these montages with samba and stuff for minutes on end, we certainly don't get this for the Argies, Italians and Germans.:D
Thanks. Honored to hear that from the guys who invented football. :thumbsup:
 

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I look at it this way. There was absolutely nothing Pele could do on soccer pitch that Maradona couldn't. On his part Maradona managed to do something that nobody have done before him or after (and that's including Pele), singlehandedly taking third rate teams like Argentina in 86 and Napoli in mid/late-80s to the ultimate glory.

Pele is a legend, smart investor, and 3 times world champion. That's a fact and for that he stands untouchable. But all 3 times he was crowned that Brazil team would've won it with Pele or without regardless. Argentina should've never qualifyied for the 86 WC. They were so poor back then. And they were even worse in 1990, but made it to the final where got beaten by a very controversial PK in 85 min. In '94 in the two games that Maradona played Argentina clearly looked to me easily the best team that were going to win the cup. Then FiFa decided anybody who takes ephedrine can play like Maradona and kicked him out.

If you judge players on their drug addiction and dependability, then yes, Maradona will be bottom of the list. But if the criteria is their abilities and achievments on the soccer field then Maradona edges everybody, even Pele and perhaps even Cruijff.
 

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hard for me to base an opinion as i have access to more maradona videos and games, whereas pele's exploits are more limited. though from what i've seen it's very close but pele is the master, there was no one who shined before him, puskas and di stephano from what i saw were special, but none had the spark of pele, the ability to shock and dazzle you with flair is something pele even from the grainy footage i saw outdoes maradona.

as a general thing i think people in england tend to favour pele, obviously it's hard to gauge everyones impressions, buti always though in england people regard pele in a light no other fits into (maradona included)
 

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Heh, these things always make me laugh, people get so worked up about who the best ever play is. I wouldn't trust what Lineker says though, it's a ridiculous statement.

The truth is I find it impossible to compare two players in the same era in the same position. Let alone different eras, positions etc. What makes Pele better than Yashin?

Pele is probably in most countries in the world (bar argentina and one or two others) thought of by the majority of people as the best. But then Pele has been a shrewd self promoter, so it sort of makes sense.

On a side note I saw film of Chile 1962 (I think) and Pele missed two sitter nigh on open goals.
 

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arfy05 said:
pele even from the grainy footage i saw outdoes maradona.
)
the "hand of god" makes people bitter and can't blame them for that. But from the grainy footage you think it outdoes Maradona then clearly you haven't seen Maradona. Combine Ronaldinho with Zidane, and spice it up with Ronaldo (in their prime) then you get something close to Maradona. Was the Pele that you saw that good?

i agree it's silly to argue. when you see a great player it's better to enjoy it rather than argue. My point is Arfy, you are looking at the wrong footage. Find yourself a good one and enjoy it, and you'll see it's impossible to outdo Maradona. That's an oxymoron.
 

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zico said:
I look at it this way. There was absolutely nothing Pele could do on soccer pitch that Maradona couldn't. On his part Maradona managed to do something that nobody have done before him or after (and that's including Pele), singlehandedly taking third rate teams like Argentina in 86 and Napoli in mid/late-80s to the ultimate glory.

Pele is a legend, smart investor, and 3 times world champion. That's a fact and for that he stands untouchable. But all 3 times he was crowned that Brazil team would've won it with Pele or without regardless. Argentina should've never qualifyied for the 86 WC. They were so poor back then. And they were even worse in 1990, but made it to the final where got beaten by a very controversial PK in 85 min. In '94 in the two games that Maradona played Argentina clearly looked to me easily the best team that were going to win the cup. Then FiFa decided anybody who takes ephedrine can play like Maradona and kicked him out.

If you judge players on their drug addiction and dependability, then yes, Maradona will be bottom of the list. But if the criteria is their abilities and achievments on the soccer field then Maradona edges everybody, even Pele and perhaps even Cruijff.
Excellent points and I have to say, i'm in agreement.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
zico said:
Pele is a legend, smart investor, and 3 times world champion. That's a fact and for that he stands untouchable. But all 3 times he was crowned that Brazil team would've won it with Pele or without regardless.

Sorry, but you are wrong.
Brasil was not playing well in the 58 wc, untill Pele and Garrincha entered the team. They became the missing link to win the title. And Pele was our best player . He had 3 goals in the semis against France and scored 2 in the finals against Sweden.
In 62, you are right.
In 70, you are also wrong. Pele was our best player. He was there to save us in the most important moments. Like in the game against England, where he gave an incredible assist to Jairzinho. He was our main playmaker and he was the leader in assists and still scored 4 goals. We did not have a player that could replace Pele in our bench.
And you all should remember that before Pele, Brasil was only the third best football nation of South America. We only started winning with Pele.
Also , don't forget that after Pele retired, we spent 24 years without winning a WC, we did not even reach the final in that period.
 

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Obviously Lineker doesn't know the opinion of the whole nation :D

I always have preferred Maradona, probably because I actually saw him play. But I can't judge Pele so I really don't know.

As for Brazilian football, we generally admire it a lot, if not for the passion and skill, we love the fit ladies :D
 

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brasileiro said:
Sorry, but you are wrong.
Brasil was not playing well in the 58 wc, untill Pele and Garrincha entered the team. They became the missing link to win the title. And Pele was our best player . He had 3 goals in the semis against France and scored 2 in the finals against Sweden.
In 62, you are right.
In 70, you are also wrong. Pele was our best player. He was there to save us in the most important moments. Like in the game against England, where he gave an incredible assist to Jairzinho. He was our main playmaker and he was the leader in assists and still scored 4 goals. We did not have a player that could replace Pele in our bench.
And you all should remember that before Pele, Brasil was only the third best football nation of South America. We only started winning with Pele.
Also , don't forget that after Pele retired, we spent 24 years without winning a WC, we did not even reach the final in that period.
That's your view on things, Brasileiro, and although there's lotsa truth to it I do not entirely agree.

in 58 after drawing 0:0 with England strikers were critisized, and Feola buckled to the pressure from the media and replaced Altafini with Pele in the third game. It was also debut for Garrincha in WC. Brazil beat USSR 2:0 and went on to win the whole thing. But how can you claim that the team perceived by many one of the best in history would not have done it without Pele when 4 years later with almost exact same players they won the cup again, and this time without Pele. Pele was young and darling of the media, but it was Didi (the playmaker) and Garrincha (the heart and soul of the team) who were making the difference by conducting the orchestra.

in 1970 Pele was much more mature and at his very best. No doubts his vision and skills were essential, but once again that was in one of the other best teams in history that simply rolled over the opponents. They had only one team that could beat them - England, but England didn't play smart vs Germany and went out. So, again with or without Pele that was a strait stroll towards the 3rd crown. Had Pele gone out there were still Gerson and Tostao.

Now, Before Pele Brazil could've and should've become a champion in 1950. So it's not like they didn't have a team to do it.

And the reason they didn't win the WC after he left was down to many factors and had absolutely nothing to do with Pele. In fact the reason Pele retired was when he saw the changes in world football, and as a shrewed tactitian that he was he realised that Brazil had no chance against the likes of Holland, Germany and Poland and retired from NT not to hinder his reputation. Brazil was not ready to compete with "total" football yet.

Compare those brazilian greats with the likes of Cusiuffo, Brown, Pumpido, Olarticoechea, Valdano... does that ring the bell? Yes, those were the midgets that Maradona made world champions. Now lets go and have lough together. :howler:
 

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Great points here as it covers a lot of my annoyance with people who say Pele was the best (after watching a few videos). For me Maradona was the best I've seen and some of his pre match showing off was ridiculously genius (kicking the ball miles in the air many times without moving off his spot). I think we have to also take into consideration the competition at the time and some argue that the Brazilian league pushed Pele to a scoring record by playing less than average teams.

We can't take into considerations Maradona's personality as this has no bearing on his talent. If we do then we can discard players like George Best.

I will never argue for Pele as I never watched enough of him (and I'm 32). I can only go by what I have witnessed. Maradona also wore a Spurs shirt in a testimonial :D

Other players that stood out for me in my childhood were Platini, Tigana. Rummenigge, Breitner (sp?), Keegan, Hoddle, Butraguenio (sp?), Scifo, Blokhin, Bergomi, Baresi (the list is truely endless :D).
 

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Freddy Adu said:
As for Brazilian football, we generally admire it a lot, if not for the passion and skill, we love the fit ladies :D
:horny:

You'd be hard pressed to find a football fan who doesn't admire Brazilian football.

There's a reason why they don't refer to the world cup as the 'World Cup' anymore, to Brazilians it's merely the pursuit of 'hexa' - meaning 'sixth', for those who don't understand portuguese. :)

I firmly believe English academies should adopt the Brazilian way of training, and i'm particularly pleased with Simon Clifford's work in this area. Clifford is owner of Garforth AFC, and friend of Juninho, Careca, Socrates, Romario, Zico, etc. Careca & Socrates were so impressed with his work they played for Garforth in sunny Yorkshire. Also, I believe Zico watched a few games, whilst Romario was going to move but had some problems with his daughter.

Needless to say, he's an advocate of Brazilian methods & techniques and if I remember rightly he's a big fan of futebol de salao.

Personally I took my fondness of Brazilian football up a level and made it a fondness of Brazil in general, it's a fascinating place.

For anyone interested, I can recomend Alex Belios' 'futebol - the brazilian way of life', as a decent starter on football over there, how it affects the culture, why it's intertwined with ginga & beaitiful movement, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
zico said:
And the reason they didn't win the WC after he left was down to many factors and had absolutely nothing to do with Pele. In fact the reason Pele retired was when he saw the changes in world football, and as a shrewed tactitian that he was he realised that Brazil had no chance against the likes of Holland, Germany and Poland and retired from NT not to hinder his reputation. Brazil was not ready to compete with "total" football yet.
Sorry, but that's 100 % wrong. Pele not ready for "total football"? :howler: .
Brasil with Pele beat the the greatest italian team ever, the fathers of catenaccio. A team that beat Germany that went to win the world cup in 74. The same german that won against Holland. Pele did not play in 70 because he was 34 years old and way past his prime. That's it.

zico said:
Compare those brazilian greats with the likes of Cusiuffo, Brown, Pumpido, Olarticoechea, Valdano... does that ring the bell? Yes, those were the midgets that Maradona made world champions. Now lets go and have lough together. :howler:
Pele was the best among the best. When Maradona had the 78 wc team with him in 82, with the likes of Kempes, Passarela, Ardiles and Fillol, he could not do anything and had a pathetic wc.
 
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