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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Seeing the 4-1 drubbing Bayern took at the hands of AC Milan shows the TRUTH, German teams just cannot be competitive in today's market. We just are not willing to spend the money. The glorious Effenberg Years had Bayern Munich's celestial stars align perfectly with the right players, the right coach, and right salary conditions. These things happen once every 30 years. Maybe. Otherwise it's business as usual. And the business is too expensive for Bayern. Even if we sell the stadium to keep Michael Ballack, does it really matter? At full strength with Ballack, we couldn't beat the Rossoneri. What makes you think we can beat a Barcelona, or a Chelsea for that matter.

The Bundesliga is the healthiest league financially, in European football. We don't run debts, teams don't bankrupt, and attendance is the highest. Good gate figures are due to keeping ticket prices low so that everyone can go to a game. But that has really taken it's toll. German football has been in decline for many years now. I think this is due to the low quality of players in the Bundesliga. In yesteryear, the Germans were more organised and athletically fit. But other countries have caught up to us now so we cannot rely on that anymore. Yet Bundesliga clubs are unwilling to pay for good quality coaches and players who can instill new styles of play and technique to the league.

Let's look at the Premiership for example. The traditional Top 4 teams are Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal. They have Mourihno, Ferguson, Benitez, and Wenger as coaches. All are foreigners. Then you look at some of the high priced imports that are on the island like, Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Robben, Crespo. Don't you think that English assistant coaches and player have learned from these foreigners. Meanwhile Germany learns nothing from their cheap imports and continue to rely on old, outdated German training programs.

Let's face the TRUTH, until the Bundesliga is willing to spend big money, things are not going to change. Yes, one can say that Bayern and Dortmund won the Champions League, and Schalke the Uefa Cup once. But the statistical probability that all the stars will fall in celestial alignment again are very slim. There's a greater chance that I will win the lottery. :rolleyes: Meanwhile, German fans have to suffer humiliating defeats like the one at the San Siro. :depress:
 

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I think bayern would be a complete team if they had a player like effenberg or maybe kahn but an outfield player.I think bayern have a much better team than the 2001 team but the determination and the will to win every ball tackle header isnt the same.They give up to easily and also bayern management havnt invested this year.They took the departure of kovac and several other players very lightly and instead of replacing them with players with the same quality they replaced them with players well below their standard.I think bayern can definitely compete in cl but they need an outfield leader it doesnt mean an outfield player should be the captain but they definitely need a player who has the command and respect over the whole midfield
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Kovac sucked. I remember him having incredible problems in the air. He was repeated outjumped by the opposition. Ismael isn't much better. He makes stupid mental errors. The bottom line is that they are not willing to pay for a world class defender.
 

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@The Champ : Maybe we should discuss this in the german forum because it applies to all german teams, not only to Bayern !

If you don't mind, i would like to move this thread up into the german forum.

To get back to the topic : I think you are right. I see 3 main points which are causing trouble to the teams.

1. Bad quality of coaching.

England is the prime example of the good influence of foreign coaching to a league which mostly relied to kick and rush at the begin of the 90's. I know that many football fans hate the Mourinho and Benitez way of playing football, but it is often successful. On the other hand, Wenger and Arsenal were successful with beautiful and nice attacking football.
All english team are miles ahead of most german teams in terms of tactical awareness - not to talk of the italian, spanish or even dutch and portugese teams which are lightyears ahead of most Bundesliga teams tactically wise..
In Germany, it is always the same : The coaches put their emphasis on the physical fitness of the players, not on tactics. We still have teams with a great level of fitness, but the other nations closed this gap and are now mostly on the same level than the german teams. Also the youth coaching seems to be very bad in Germany. Lets have a litte comparison with the dutch : Why is it that almost every dutch player is already technically perfect at youth level while the germans can only do 3 things : run, run, run !?
I'm not talking about the players from Surinam which due to their south american origin may have some advantages over 'normal' middle europeans. But look at guys like van der Vaart, look at Robben, van Persie, Boulahrouz, van Nistelroy and so on - they all have great technical skills, but they are normal middle europeans so it cannot be said that their physique differs from the germans. The problem is in the education of the german players : You can train technical skills when you are 10, 12 , 15 years old - but if you start with 18, 19 or 20, it's too late. But our training still relies on physical fitness. In Holland, they do all youth training with a ball - when i look back at the time when in played in a club as a kid, 60-70 % of our training sessions where pure running and athletics training with weights and so on - seems that it is still the same...


2. Money

Money is probably the biggest issue. As you already said, the german teams are not big spenders. The top clubs from Italy, Spain and England are spending so much more money for players and their wages that it is rather impossible for german teams to catch up with them.
Looking back 5-6 years ago, in Dortmund and Leverkusen we still had at least 2 other teams apart from Bayern which were able to be successful in the CL and which could harm big teams from Spain or Italy. Both teams were spending big money in these days and they had great players. Germany had 4 spots in the CL 6 years ago. But then Dortmund started to collapse and also Bayer was not able to keep their great players since the Bayer company had to suffer from the downturn in the world economy after the burst of the stock market bubble, so they heavily cut down their investments into the club.
In these days, most of the clubs are financially quite healty - at least when being compared to their counterparts of Spain and Italy. Here is the main difference to Germany : Clubs like Roma, Lazio or Valencia would have been called bankrupt and eliminated by the german law due to their unbelievable high debts. In Germany, Dortmund is called a scandal club because of their high debts - but at least they have a plan to pay off their creditors, their players received their wages mostly in time, while in Italy, no one cares if Roma or Lazio doesn't pay their taxes for years(!!!!!!) , they still owe millions to players and other clubs because they cannot pay transfer fees and so on. And even clubs like Milan or Inter can only survive because their owners are clearing their debts and annual losses by giving financial support out of their own pockets... Most of those clubs have a disastrous balance sheet and their earnings are not covering their spendings. But no one seems to care, so they continue.


3. The dominance of Bayern Muenchen

The Bayern dominance is another main problem in german football. Bayern earned their dominance because they have the best management in german football for over 25 years now. The Bayern management has simply done a good, a brilliant job.
But Bayern is misusing their dominance : They always try to weak their opponents in the Bundesliga instead of importing top players from foreign leagues. By importing top players from other countries, the overall level of the Bundesliga is lifted as well, while buying away the best players from other Bundesliga clubs is only a shift of power inside the league.
I recently had look at the Bayern transfers : In the last 6 years, they only transfered 2 (!!) foreign players from other european top leagues : Makaay from the spanish, Sagnol from french league.

If there is a new club on the rise, Hoeness will try to buy away their best players to weaken them. He is doing this for 20 years now, and it always worked out for Bayern in the Bundesliga - but it doesn't help to increase the overall strength of the league. And it also doesn't help Bayern in the CL if they buy players from smaller clubs which are maybe good in the Bundesliga but not good enough on international top level.

Why did Bayern buy Ismael ? A very good defender of course - but prior to the actual season, he only played one CL campaign with Werder, he is not very experienced on international level, he even isn't a nt player. The reason was that Bayerns wanted to weaken Werder imho. But if you want to win the CL, you need better players than Ismael.
Bayern must understand that a good competition in the Bundesliga is finally good for themselves and for the german football overall. But they are lowering the level of competition if they are always trying to weaken other Bundesliga clubs by snatching away their best players. If Bayern really wants to win the CL, they need better players than Ismael, Deisler & Co. But those players are expensive.
 

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Great posts, Champ and Rot.

FC Bayern, and the Bundesliga in general, need to start thinking more outside the box and use some of the other leagues as an example to emulate. That goes for both the transfer habits and the coaching.

It's not always about spending the big bucks; even clubs in France, Portugal, and especially Holland are willing to take the gamble on up and coming foreign talents. German clubs don't have to smash any transfer records to load up on promising talent from outside the country.
 

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I think another big Problem, are the TV rights. If bayern get 10 Million € more like in the other countrys they could have one world class player more!!
 

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Yes, German football has been bad for a while now. But, they did make it to the WC final in 2002, which has also blinded them. I thought the Germans had an easy path during that WC. Keep in mind, they were even outplayed by the Americans. If it wasn't for good luck, then they could have easily gone out of the tournament. Of course, you can say luck is part of the game. Nonetheless, I think they focus on getting the result and didn't care how they get them. So when they play top teams, they don't have the foundation to beat them on a consistent basis. Therefore, relying on just fighting spirit or luck might not work all the time. As far as skill wise, I don't think the Germans have any advantage, perhaps it's disadvantage for them. Other than Ballack, I can't even think of any other great German footballers at this point as far as outfield player goes.
 
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