La Liga first: Referee complains about fascist symbolism during match

Che said:

what are the social condition in spain that makes this possible...

and what social group do the people come from

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and i bet they dont think theres anything wrong with what they're doing. or what could be worse but the likely option is they dont even understand what they're doing.

i mean you have the flags, you have the monkey chants, you have the nazi salutes (lazio-madrid in the CL not that long ago just for a quick example). ok theyre not grouped under the same category, that's why ive come to understand that sometimes the monkey chants arent intended to cause racial vilification, but are born out of sheer stupidity in that that's the only way they can rile up the player.

but the nazi and fascist circus, are the people taking part knowledgeable of all this? i mean as Che asked are they part of groups, political parties, some type of movement? who are they? or they merely thugs or braindead morons and are just clueless to the acts of stupidity they commit.

and Maxi, what numbers are you speaking of when you talk about people taking part? like a large section of the crowd or just a few dozen?

Che said:

what are the social condition in spain that makes this possible...

and what social group do the people come from

Click to expand...

I don't think it's so easy to make such an easy link between social condition and ideology here. It's known that some of these ultras belong to "good families" without huge economic problems. Of course, you may find anything and it's possible that some of them come from the forgotten parts of the society.

In any case, I think it's more related with people who need to belong to a certain community, where they feel strong in the mass, to fill their individual weaknesses. Once I read a book about a jounralist who entered in Ultrassur to know them, a dangerous task, if you ask me. The idea he defended is that, when you're in Ultrassur, you feel strong, unbeatable, protected, powerful. The ultra-right elites, who never shave their heads, use them to achieve their political goals. At the end, the ultra groups aren't a goal themselves, they're just a tool to spread their propaganda in an attractive scenario like it's football. Many kids get attracted by the chants, the flags and all that... and they finally "capture" those who need to satisfy their social needs. This may be more evident in the kids that live in problematic quarters, but it's known that others already are ideologized before. At the end, there was a long ultra-right dictatorship in Spain until not so long ago and, even though this idea is minoritary (they're not even in the Spanish parliament, unlike other countries of Europe like France, Italy or Austria), they actually exist. They're children of old politicians, policemen, member of the old army...

Said all this, I think it's the clubs' responsability to accept them in the stadiums. Some presidents get the protection (via chants, banners, etc.) of the ultras in a shameful way and some others still have this naive idea of the ultras as kids that don't know what they do. In a way or another, I think that ignoring the reality of the ultras is a huge mistake.

I don't think it's a casuality to see that the biggest problems appeared in stadiums that have large ultra groups. It happened everywhere, including the Camp Nou. If you ask me, Laporta's greatest job was to kick them out of the Camp Nou to make them irrelevant. Florentino tried it too, but I think that he lacked a last impulse. In his recognition, the Ultrassur are less than half the group they were (see them in the 80s and early 90s and you'll see what I mean). On the other hand, look at the Biris in Sevilla, the Betis Supporters, the Frente Atletico, the Osasuna ultras... whenever these groups are bigger, the bigger the problems are. It's an evidence. You'll see how nothing happens in Villarreal. Never.

It's true that there are some ultras that link with the ultra left, as it happens with Osasuna or Deportivo. But this is a different reality. They normally link with radical nationalist ideas too (like the ultra right groups), although hidden in ultra left ideas.

For me, ultra-left and ultra-right are very near when it comes to

Redhat said:

and i bet they dont think theres anything wrong with what they're doing. or what could be worse but the likely option is they dont even understand what they're doing.

i mean you have the flags, you have the monkey chants, you have the nazi salutes (lazio-madrid in the CL not that long ago just for a quick example). ok theyre not grouped under the same category, that's why ive come to understand that sometimes the monkey chants arent intended to cause racial vilification, but are born out of sheer stupidity in that that's the only way they can rile up the player.

but the nazi and fascist circus, are the people taking part knowledgeable of all this? i mean as Che asked are they part of groups, political parties, some type of movement? who are they? or they merely thugs or braindead morons and are just clueless to the acts of stupidity they commit.

and Maxi, what numbers are you speaking of when you talk about people taking part? like a large section of the crowd or just a few dozen?

Click to expand...

Man, you just have to know the history of Spain in the 20th century. While all Europe were assuming our historical errors, in Spain we had a long dictatorship that was in the line of Hitler and Mussolini, with some Spanish details. But the "nazi" (fascist) salute was common in Spain until the late 70s.

In Spain, Franco didn't die after a war for freedom. It was a process, a transition, from a dictatorship to a democracy. It had to be this way in that historical moment if we didn't want another Civil War. The result is that, even though the principles of the dictatorship were denies since the very beginning, Spain also looked somewhere else, looked forward and put history under ground.

The main conservative party in Spain doesn't follow the ideas of Franco, but it's undeniable that they know that some of their voters had sympathies for him, so they prefer not to touch this part of history. Basically, implicitly, some of the things of these long 40 years are still there. Noone defends them, but many many people don't want to look at them. The Spanish conservatives don't defend Franco, but don't reject him either. It's hard to describe, if you don't live here.

The Ultra groups are linked with minoritary political parties of the ultra right without any social presence and relevance. But they're very noisy, very violent. They look bigger than what they're. You can see it in the elections, they don't get a vote anywhere. But the Spanish moderate right do not condemn their ideas clearly and this ambiguous position let them have their space.

The monkey chants that went beyond the ultra movements, like the ones of Getafe or the Bernabeu the day against England, are a more complex idea. Some people still think that anything is okay in order to bother the rival. Basically, people who aren't racist at all, but ignorant enough to realize the importance of doing this. So some of them may be racists and others just ignorants that insult the rival. In this 2nd case, they use race, or sexual tendencies, or the girlfriend or mother of the player or just his haircut. They just use the most painful weapon they have to insult the rival. It doesn't matter if it's the race or the car they use. They just want to make harm. Period. Others, of course, are racist, but I do really believe that this is a minority inside a large group of ignorants, which is way bigger.