Xtratime Community banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I don´t like the fact that money rules the game. Especially if you don´t have the money (like Real). Real sucks. First Anelka, then Figo, now Owen? Where do they get the money from? The spanish federation sucks, too. Real has a minus of about US$ 150 million or what? And they are allowed to play in th first league. Real destroys the game. Every contract is just a way to push pressure on the management. I hate this fact. Yes, I hear the guys who say and what about Lazio? First we have the money (we were the first in Italy to go to the stockmarket). Second the Crespo transfer involves players. It is like a trade in the NBA. Player for two players and cash. That is okay. But Real should be banned from the Champions league! Gerhard Aigner, the UEFA executive, said he wants to start a license prooving before CL starts (not this season but next year). To get the license you have to proove that you´re able to pay the salary of your players and that you have the money you plan to spent. Not like Real "we are still allowed to play cause we have a big name" Madrid. In Germany when you have a minus of US$ 2.5 million you are perhaps not allowed to play in the Bundesliga and in the past teams were relegated to the third(!) division. Or you´re not allowed to buy new players. Or they will take points away from the team at the end of the season. That is fair. :) Not the way Real handles it. Or the spanish federation. :mad: What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,502 Posts
I was pissed about this myself, until I found out that Real owns very much realestate to cover their debts.
If this is all legal for the Uefa is a questionmark to me, but they certainly aren't spending money they don't own.

In my opinion they are just going crazy, just like other giants these days ( Inter, Lazio, Milano,..)
And this evolution in general makes me sick, certainly because I live in country with great football history, but practically no chances for the future because of this one missing factor: CA$H.( and probably good leadership)

But this evolution is unstoppable, because football is a big part of the economy now and the economy tends to globalise. This means no space for familybussinesses anymore.
But we all got to accept this and build strict regulations around this new fenomenen, because there is no way back....

ADRIAAN
________
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
100% right adriaan. It is not just in football. I little example: In my hometown a handball team won the second division last may. :D The years before it was a big family. Now, with all the pros coming in to play in the first league it has changed into a business. :( I can´t accept this but what can you do ? Nothing. Time has changed. The UEFA should use a salary cap system like in the United States. Each team can pay their players only a part of the money they earn from tickets, merchandise, tv etc. That would be fine but it´s only a dream of mine. No chance. Perhaps the situation would change with such a system. BTW, Jesus Gil y Gil (or how many names has he?) was the man who made the faults that resulted in the Atletico relagtion to secunda division. Man o man, he had the power, too much power. But they will be back next year, I´m sure. They are a part of spanish football tradition so they have to be in the primera dividion!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,502 Posts
True, Gil is an a bastard.
He gave us lots of joy the last years, but he hasn't got a vision for the future and was too corrupt.
So Gil RAUS!

Dortmund was in the same situation, ( sportive situation that is)but fortunatily they made it.
It was one hell of a season last year, Atlético, Marseille and Dortmund in major trouble.....unbelievable.

But thanks for the support:), I like Dortmund aswel although they have a long way to go I think....

BTW, could you explain this NBA system a little further?
It sounds great:)

ADRIAAN
________
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,168 Posts
Captain Sandro; Only yesterday Onesoccer.com posted this interview with Bayern München Director Uli Höeness:

http://www.onefootball.com/fullstory.phtml?newsid=22483&team_id=&country_id=20

When you say that Real should be banned from CL bear in mind that UEFA does not ban because of debts. Only the national associations can do that, and bear in mind Adriaan's words about Real's real estate properties too.
Having said that I tend to agree with you. When clubs spend huge ammounts of money they don't actually have it will inflate the prizes for everyone else, and that will always damage the small teams.
Lazio is one of the worst in doing so as they DO NOT have the money as you claim. Cragnotti is buying highprofile players and leaking information about getting others to boost their market value on the stock exchange. Apart from being illegal in some countries (F.C Copenhagen was warned/penalized by the Danish stock exchange for that to mention an example) it creates the image of a club capable of doing more or less anything because the shareholder value is artificially increased.
For Lazio this will be VERY effective if they can continue to win titles and over the next couple of years establish a sound business cost/benefit wise.
But as of right now only Cragnotti's personal wallet and the unrealistically high market rates makes it possible for Lazio to follow this course.
No Italian team has ever recorded so massive losses as Lazio over the last two seasons (and you won quite alot didn't you :)). This is due to the fact that Lazio is one of the highest spenders transferwise, pay some of the best salaries, do not feature as a major force in world wide marketing (replica shirts etc. etc) and does not have that lucrative outside activities.
If Lazio's recent run of success continues I'm sure Cragnotti has the business brain to get all those things going, but when you look at the level of competitiveness in serie A it's not totally unrealistic that some other teams will pip Lazio off the top. If, for instance, Lazio goes two years without winning CL or Lo scudetto you'll see sharevalue go down in a MAJOR way and Cragnotti will have to finance the club on his own. No matter if he's very rich that'll be hard to swallow and Lazio could be on a horrifying path.
I'm not saying any of this is going to happen as Lazio looks very strong and capable of winning a lot. But so does Juve, Inter, Roma, Parma and in the very near future Milan with a bunch of U-21 stars and massive buying power.

This new development will be very interesting to follow, but I must admit I'm happy it's not my team who gambles like this :).

Ciao.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,168 Posts
I'm honestly sorry. I was multitasking and I thought I commented at the Juve forum.
I didn't mean to insult any of you, but I must admit I gave my honest opinion on the subject.

Mattias or Emir- If you want to- feel free to delete my response. I don't want to cause controvercy here, and I suspect my comments are not excactly popular :).

Ciao.
 
T

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hmm, Glen, well spoken... I guess. But I'm not sure. I don't know enough about the different clubs economical assets. Some thoughts, though:

1) Maybe apart from Man U - could ANY club make BIG transfers (like Crespo, Batigol, Figo... or Tretzeguet), and at the same time pay the wages that comes with being a top team in Serie A or Primera Division, without having a "generous" president? Please, let me doubt. After all: Agnellis and Berluscomi aren't tramps...

2) Yes, Lazio is spending in an... unpleasant way, I can admit that. But the team IS building from quite a backward position. Before Crag, we were a minor team in Serie A history. And you can't compete with the dragons (Juve & Milan) without blasting with BIG artillery. Look at Parma and Fiorentina - the first a great team that never really have reached the ultimate top, the latter a team that has put Batigol on the pitch for several seasons... and yet the 90ths shows us what it takes to be champions: money and rutine (the real rutine and the one the refs supplies). It would seem as the rule goes: the more money you have, the less "rutine" you need. And on the contrary: the more "rutine", the less money...

I'd say that if Serie A can be made more exciting through Crags money: just be happy! After all - it's not THAT fun only having two hot candidates for the scudetto... and Lazio is by no means sure of winning anything the upcoming season. We're the pray of EVERYONE now...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,659 Posts
Well Totte, you seem to have missed the point. Glen points out that this spending bonanza by Lazio over the summer is a one time only assault on becoming a super power in football and join the likes of Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern Munich etc. It's not Cragnotti paying for all of this, it's the shareholders. There are means to get more money from shareholders, but only as long as you do well. If you fail this attempt you won't get a second chance. This is why other teams DO NOT want to float on the stock exchange. They want to remain in full control of the clubs finances and not be pressured into silly deals like this Crespo thing. Anyway, I wish Lazio all the best as it means that Serie A will be even more competitive.

Then you write some stuff about Parma... Until you won Lo Scudetto in a "mysterious" way this year Parma had been more successful than Lazio. If it hadn't been that rain, do you think Juve would have failed? Don't be so freaking cocky about it, ok? And we are yet to see who's got the best team next year. Parma boy Alex will probably start against Argentina tonight. Watch and compare with Veron as they play in a similar role. Amoroso, when fully fit, also start for the Selecao. Milosevic was top scorer of Euro 2000. Almeyda and Conceicao shouldn't be strangers to you guys. Then we have Micoud, Boghossian and Lamouchi who all have played for the french national team. We have signed Junior from Palmeiras, he's ranked at #3 in his role behind Roberto Carlos and Athirson but before Serginho. Then we have Thuram and Cannavaro in defence, both just as good as your very own Nesta. (Actually I hold Thuram as #1 and Cannavaro as #3 in that trio.) In goal we have Buffon. In short, why should I feel that Parma is inferior to Lazio?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Verdi, I think that the problem for a club like Parma is the exactly same as Lazio had before the victory of lo scudetto !

If you haven't won it, you don't know how to win it. That's what's hard even if you have players like all the ones you mention (all great players).

FORZALAZIO !!

http://Laziomania.socceralliance.com
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
So adriaan, you wanted to have an example for a so called trade. In the US it is the same rule in the NBA, NHL or whereever. He is your example: you have a player from Lazio, perhaps Lopez, but you think you need a good defender in you want to get Thuram. You ask Parma: hey guys, you´ll get Lopez and you give Thuram to us. That´s the usual way. Also possible: you want to get rich of Ronaldo, if you´re Inter and you ask Bayern Munich, may you give us Lizarazu and perhaps Scholl for him? Sometimes cash is involved but it´s not the normal way. An Glen, I already read this Uli Hoeness interview yesterday but thanks anyway. Don´t listen what he says. Often his brain is out when he is talking. Of course the Figo deal sucks, but isn´t it very arrogant to say that he wouldn´t be able to sleep if he is the Real or Lazio president? You have to know: If you´re not a bayern fan you hate Uli Hoeness cause of his success coupled with his arrogance. He always seems to be the master. Of course he is the best manager of all time in Germany that doesn´t mean you´re right all the time. And the fact that only national associations can ban the teams cause of money failures; just wait, Gerhard Aigner of UEFA wants to change the system and it would be good for football. Some teams show they are good without spending much money (look at Dynamo Kiew from the Ukraine). Or even look at Bayern. They bought two players for a total of US$ 10 million. I think Figo will earn this in his new contract. Isn´t his amazing? If Figo doesn´t use the money of his new contract he would be able to buy Sforza and Sagnol who just signed for Bayern. And they are good players, not superstars but good players. Remeber: Bayern has a bench player for every position who is also playing for his national team. I don´t think it is the same in Madrid, Manchester or @ Juventus. Good management, respect Mr. Hoeness, but you´re not god.
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Sorry adriaan, you´ll get it tomorrow! I don´t know where my newspaper article about this topic is right now. :( Give me some time and you´ll have the information right here.
 
T

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hm, Verdi, you seemed a bit upset about "some stuff" I wrote about Parma. And I was told that I shouldn't be "so freaking cocky" about the scudetto Lazio won in a "mysterious" way last season.

So: what is there to be upset about? The fact that I said Parma is a great team? Or that I - although Parma has an impressing list of trophies during the 90s (with the two UEFA Cup triumphs on top) - I don't want to count Parma to the "ultimate top" of Serie A? When i wrote this, I was speaking of Parma as a club, not as a team - I know Parma has got one hell of a squad. This may seem offensive to you, but without a scudetto, I can't see that Parma is to be regarded as belonging to the ultimate top in the Serie A. I'm not even sure two's enough - I just hope that Lazio will prevail and join the top. Hope you get my point.

The economy stuff: I'm not very accustomed to how it works down in Italy. But I know this:

The big teams are managed like big companys. If a small or medium sized company wants to expand, it has to rely on either loans, the selling of properties to get cash, or its shareholders. This is the only way of getting the needed money for investment. Now, if Lazio wants to join the top, they HAS to - as you put it - "float on the stock exchange". Someone said that Real, unlike Lazio, has got real estate to protect their investments. Well, this is where my talk about Crag's money comes in. Lazio, being a medium club (before Crag) on the rise, can't show any real estate. The "security" - our "real estate" that will make the Lazio stocks more trustworthy on the market - has to be the fact that Crag stands behind the club. Maybe in the future, if the club reaches its goals, there will be opportunities to use the money for other things than players. But right now, Lazio has to produce victories. Real estate won't do that. It's a risk, yes, but so is every expansion made by a company.

Having said all this, I wish Parma all the best in the upcoming season. If there's any team I would be... content loosing a title race against, its them.
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
So adriaan, here is the way the salary system works in the USA:

http://Nba.com/news/collective_bargaining_agreement.html

Use this link and you´ll read everything you want to know about it. If there are some questions left ask me.

There is something special on the Larry Bird-rule you should know:

You´re a Larry Bird-player when you´re contract expires at the end of the season and you´re able to choose you´re new club by yourself. In the past a new club was able to offer you more money. But they changed that rule to establish a kind of identification from the players with their club (like Figo hasn´t, otherweise he wouldn´t have joint Real). If a team wants to sign a player from their team who is a Larry bird-player a team doesn´t have to look how much room they have under the salary cap. But they are just able to re-sign just one player this way. But: the team has to wait to re-sign him until August 1st! This is very important. And you´re not able to talk to him about a new contract until July 1st! If the player re-signs before August 1st he is not a Larry Bird-player anymore and so you have to look how much room is under your teams salary cap. How much your salary cap is they explain (in the link).

And: you´re not allowed to sign a player from another team to a contract until he is a so-called free-agent. The player becomes a free-agent when his contract expires on July 1st, one minute after midnight.

Also improtant: the league is much stronger and more important than the leagues in european football. To create such a system you have to change the rules a little bit here in Europe.

Well that´s it, obviously not but read the link first until I explain something you already know.

I´m waiting for your questions. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,659 Posts
I see your point Totte. I don't count Parma as an elite Serie A club either. Juventus and Milan are that, Inter used to be one too. Lazio and Roma have never been it. I just want you to be more humble about your Scudetto because you won it by some kind of miracle.

BTW, Cragnotti isn't as rich as you think! His business isn't exactly blooming if I've understood it correctly. He's taking a long shot here you know. Maybe I'm jealous, what do I know? I see three weaknesses in Lazio. One is spelled "Mihajlovic", the second is "poor squad depth" and the third is "no right wing". I will offend alot of you guys here when I say that your squad is unbalanced. You have quality players like Nesta, Veron, Crespo, Nedved, Lopez, Peruzzi and Simeone but then what? Two huge holes in your first team lineup, one in central defence next to Nesta and one on the right wing. Your subs aren't nearly as good as you think. Sensini, Ravanelli and Lombardo were all great 5 years ago but now they are past it. Simone Inzaghi will never become a great player. Couto can't be trusted. Baronio and Stankovich are yet to prove themselves etc etc...
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
So VERDI, you think we have an unbalanced team? And what do you have? Do you have a quality left wing? Perhaps I can´t remember your left wing. And all the french imports aren´t as good as you think. Only Thuram was in the EURO 2000 squad. Right? Correct me if I´m wrong. And Amoroso has to proove that he is able to win the scoring title again. You only have one quality stiker, Milosevic played his whole career in the forward friendly Primera Division where goals are scored like children are born. Of course he scored in EURO 2000: against an unexperienced and tired Slovenian team, against Norway with his head or what from a free kick (okay this one wasn´t so bad), against Spain (once again in a forward friendly game, 4-3 Spain) and against the netherlands when the game was already over (yeah, congratulations). He mainly scored on easy tap ins. My grandma also would have scored those ones. So tell me were is your quality left wing and where is your good second striker? And why did your stupid pres sell Chiesa?

P.S.: Conceicao is still ours! And we´ll have your Fabio next year? So don´t ask me about a central defender anymore And we also have Couto who played great at the EURO 2000. And also Miha will play much better as he did in EURO 2000. He will not play so bad for a whole season.

Don´t take this one to personally VERDI!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,659 Posts
Ah, ignorance at it's best... :)

Our french guys not as good as I think? Hmmm... Perhaps not but they are certainly much better than what you think. Thuram and Micoud was a part of the Euro 2000 squad. Boghossian would have been too if he hadn't been injured. True, Lamouchi wasn't part of the squad but he still have 11 caps to his name. The reason why he did not take part was the incredible amount of world class midfielders in France right now.

Milosevic played his entire career in Spain? :D Wow! I didn't know that...

As for Conceicao being a Lazio player. Perhaps, but he will sign soon. There's no doubt about that.

Our left wing? Well, there are two options. One is to play Fuser on the left, like we did in the last friendly, and the other is Junior. Junior played for Palmeiras and is ranked as the third best left back/mid in Brazil.

So Fabio is going to play for Lazio next season? Well, there are different opinions about that. Who say he will? Some newspapers? Who say he won't? AC Parma themselves... So, until it's official, shut it! Even if he will join you you still have the liability called Mihajlovic on the pitch this year. Not that I'm not grateful for that... :)


Ok. Here's our team. You judge and tell whether it's unbalanced...

__________Milosevic___Amoroso__________

________________Micoud_________________

_Junior__Almeyda__Boghossian__Conceicao_

_____Cannavaro___Baggio___Thuram_______

________________Buffon_________________

...and here are the reserves...

__________Di Vaio___M'Boma_________

________________Alex?_________________

_Falsini__Lamouchi___Bolano____Fuser_

____Benarrivo__Torrisi___Sartor______

______________Guardalben_____________


Then we have some young promising guys like Baby Cannavaro, Montano, Appiah and Bonazzoli...

So please tell me why this isn't a balanced squad. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that we don't have a "great champion" as Malesani himself puts it but I doubt we'll need one with this midfield. So, even if Lazio may look better on paper, agree that this is a *balanced* squad if nothing else... We have cover for all positions who are almost as good as the starter. We won't be as sensitive for injuries like we were last year at least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,659 Posts
I forgot about that second striker issue. (Or should I say "segunda punta" as it's so fashionably called by some of you Lazio fans? ;)) Well, his name is MARCIO AMOROSO! You see, Marcio is a very versatile player. As well as he made Bierhoff top scorer one year he made himself top scorer the year after. So, he can both assist and score... It's true that he had an awful year last year but the reports from the Parma camp tells about a Amoroso back to his old self.
 

·
Premier Player
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
So VERDI, first of all I just wanted to make clear that if our team is unbalanced then your team is also unbalanced. The second striker thing: I meant that Marcio is the No.1 and Milo your second top man. But he has to proove that he is no one-hit(EURO 2000)-wonder. I also know that all your french guys have already played for France but if for example Lamouchi is so good he would have been on the EURO 2000 squad, wouldn´t he? He wasn´t. Of course there are many quality players in the french midfield. I see your point.
The wingers thing: Nedved is the best left (offensive) left wing in Seria A right now. So this is our advantage and the right wing spot your advantage.

The balance thing: But I think we have a big advantage in attack. More guys who can score goals. Your advantage in defense is not as big as ours in attack so we are a little bit stronger. But we´ll see. Perhaps, if your top players don´t get injuried you have a very good balanced team. Like we have a good balanced team.

Arguably Bayern Munich has the best depth on their bench. Great job done by the management there. They are the CL favourites.

Peruzzi_________Marchegiani
Negro___________Favalli
Nesta___________Collonese
Miha____________Couto
Pancaro_________Pesaresi
Baronio_________Lombardo
Simeone_________Stankovic
Nedved__________Sensini
Veron___________Zenden?
Crespo__________Inzaghi
Lopez___________Ravanelli

This is a balanced team. For sure!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,659 Posts
About the second striker thing. Even if Amoroso is our best attacker he will be the one who Milosevic will feed off since Milosevic can't create his own chances. Here comes the beauty in this pair though. Amoroso can feed off Milosevic too. We can use Milosevic as target man for our crosses and long balls. He can then both go for the goal directly or head it down to Amoroso who also is a deadly finisher. This option is NOT available to Lopez and Crespo since Hernan's aerial game is not strong enough and Lopez finishing isn't sharp enough. However, Lopez and Crespo are probably the world's best striking pair even without that option so...

Then we have this balance thing. Ok, you have a great squad but I still think you are more "un-even" than Parma. You have a bigger gap between the starting 11 and the subs. It's very possible that your starting 11 is better than ours but I dare to say that our back up 11 is better than yours. It's a silly argument really. Let's wait for the action to begin instead!

Finally, if your team can live up to the expectations and stay healthy I think Lazio will win Lo Scudetto. If not I think Parma have a good chance. However, I will be content with a Champion's League place for Parma next year as that is absolutely vital for us. Even that I won't take for granted since there are at least six to eight teams fighting it out for four places.

ps. Lamouchi will probably not even start for Parma but he's not bad for a sub, is he? He's got experience and know how to win.



[Edited by VERDI on 28-07-2000 at 18:21]
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top