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Discussion Starter #1


1st round

Paganese-Pro Patria 0-0 (3-4 pks)
Grosseto-Unione Venezia 2-2 (6-5 pks)
AlbinoLeffe-Torre Neapolis 4-1
Lumezzane-Massese 3-0
Pontisola-Ascoli 2-0
Alto Adige-Matera 2-0
Cremonese-Viareggio 3-0
Pisa-Termoli 1-0
Benevento-Pontedera 4-0
Perugia-Savona 0-0 (0-1 aet)
Pro Vercelli-Monza 0-1
Vicenza-Feralpisalò 3-1
Entella-Gualdo Casacastalda 5-2
Frosinone-L’Aquila 1-0
Lecce-Santhià 3-0
Nocerina-Pordenone 0-2
Salernitana-Teramo 0-3


some crazy scores there, such as Pontisola (who?) defeating Ascoli or Teramo destroying Lotito's Salernitana or Pordenone defeating Nocerina.
 

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Do you see any of these teams making waves in the tournament? Who do you think will go the deepest?

My two picks are Lecce and Albinoleffe. Lecce had a solid team already and added Miccoli this year (after notoriously missing out on promotion the last day of the season). Albinoleffe has some really good young talent, mainly Belotti, and Valoti, 2 Italian youth internationals.
 

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Toni continues with his obsessive cheap shots aimed at the Coppa Italia, when it's clear it's important. :stuckup:

you can't win a treble without it, you can't win a domestic double without it, and it sure is better than zero titoli.
 

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Toni continues with his obsessive cheap shots aimed at the Coppa Italia, when it's clear it's important. :stuckup:

you can't win a treble without it, you can't win a domestic double without it, and it sure is better than zero titoli.
Not to mention it's the only reason Lazio are playing in Europe this season..
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Toni continues with his obsessive cheap shots aimed at the Coppa Italia, when it's clear it's important. :stuckup:

you can't win a treble without it, you can't win a domestic double without it, and it sure is better than zero titoli.
The same fact that we talk about "treble" and "double" and there are no Italian terms suggests that in Italy we could live without these terms. :D
We didn't invent an Italian term for "double" and "treble" when the Italian Cup was worth something and we adopt the English term now (no one has ever used it in Italy in the past millennium) that the Italian Cup is worth little more than the Trofeo Birra Moretti. :tongue:
 

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The same fact that we talk about "treble" and "double" and there are no Italian terms suggests that in Italy we could live without these terms. :D
We didn't invent an Italian term for "double" and "treble" when the Italian Cup was worth something and we adopt the English term now (no one has ever used it in Italy in the past millennium) that the Italian Cup is worth little more than the Trofeo Birra Moretti. :tongue:
I get the feeling this is the same reason why Italian clubs, in general, underperform in international cups as well. Here is how I view the main focus, based on any teams current ambitions:

Don't get relegated; (to secure next seasons money).
Qualify for a Europa League spot; (to secure next seasons money).
Qualify for a Champions League spot; (to secure next seasons money).

Doing well in these tournaments isn't really going to help getting to 1 of these 3 goals. In fact, it is looked at more as a detriment, since you have to play in more games outside the league. That's why there is always pre-season talk from mid to low level teams about getting to 40 points, instead of aiming for overall improvements in the final standings or quality of play.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Not to mention it's the only reason Lazio are playing in Europe this season..
the day it will be the door to the CL I will partially reconsider my opinion of the Italian Cup. :tongue:
Just partially for the reasons I tell you now.
Right now the Italian Cup is just a competition the Lega doesn't want to cancel (not yet at least) but the purpose of Lega is having four big clubs in the semifinals and the format is studied in order to give them advantages and avoid them problems.
1- the big clubs enter the competitions in the 1/8 finals, so they have to play just 5 games in order to win the competition. Consider that in the 80s every club had to play 13 (!!!) games. Less than a half, almost a third of the games!
2- the quarter finals are in january and semifinals are in february so that big clubs are not disturbed while playing the European competitions.
3- clubs with a better position in serie A in the previous season have the advantage to play at home (why!!!??) until there is just one game (till quarterfinals included) so a little club who ever managed to reach the 1/8 finals has to face two strong opponents (one in the 1/8 finals and one in the QF) in away games. Mission: impossible!
4-fixture/schedules can be changed according to the needs of the clubs (wonder what clubs?). In the past it happened that there were up to two months between the first and the second leg of the semifinals!
 

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the day it will be the door to the CL I will partially reconsider my opinion of the Italian Cup. :tongue:
Just partially for the reasons I tell you now.
Right now the Italian Cup is just a competition the Lega doesn't want to cancel (not yet at least) but the purpose of Lega is having four big clubs in the semifinals and the format is studied in order to give them advantages and avoid them problems.
1- the big clubs enter the competitions in the 1/8 finals, so they have to play just 5 games in order to win the competition. Consider that in the 80s every club had to play 13 (!!!) games. Less than a half, almost a third of the games!
2- the quarter finals are in january and semifinals are in february so that big clubs are not disturbed while playing the European competitions.
3- clubs with a better position in serie A in the previous season have the advantage to play at home (why!!!??) until there is just one game (till quarterfinals) so a little club who ever managed to reach the 1/8 finals has to face two strong opponents (one in the 1/8 finals and one in the QF) in away games. Mission: impossible!
4-fixture/schedules can be changed according to the needs of the clubs (wonder what clubs?). In the past it happened that there were up to two months between the first and the second leg of the semifinals!
To be fair, of course the scheduling is around the clubs playing in those competitions, smaller clubs have no other obligations to schedule around. Also, any rule benefits the big clubs... here are a few made up rules to prove:

1)No team may use any of their first 11 players. - Advantage big clubs since they are deeper.

2)Teams must only use their youth squad players. - Advantage big clubs since they have more talent in the system.

3)The field size is tiny. - Advantage bigger clubs based on talent in tight areas.

4)The field size is huge. - Advantage big clubs based on their physical ability.

I agree that the fact the big clubs come into the tournament later is an unfair advantage that they don't need. But other than that, it's difficult to even make up a rule to benefit the smaller clubs. Though if you forced every game to be played in torrential rains, there is a better chance for a lesser talented team to steal a goal and/or game.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I agree that the fact the big clubs come into the tournament later is an unfair advantage that they don't need. But other than that, it's difficult to even make up a rule to benefit the smaller clubs. Though if you forced every game to be played in torrential rains, there is a better chance for a lesser talented team to steal a goal and/or game.
playing the one-legged-games at the team with the worst position in the standings in the previous season could be a decent start. If it's too much then at least give the little clubs a chance by making them 2-legged. Playing the quarterfinals and semifinals in March and April no matter whether some teams have European competitions could also be an improvement (since it has always been like that, even when there were 13 games!). Sticking to the fixtures which have been decided in July/August would also be a good rule.
 

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playing the one-legged-games at the team with the worst standing in the previous season could be a decent start.
But why give the team who did worse, an advantage? Not to mention that, in theory, you will be playing games at smaller stadiums with less fans. Meaning less overall money. Outside of those factors, you did come up with a rule that would benefit the weak. (Quite easily as well :))
 

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Discussion Starter #14
But why give the team who did worse, an advantage? Not to mention that, in theory, you will be playing games at smaller stadiums with less fans. Meaning less overall money. Outside of those factors, you did come up with a rule that would benefit the weak. (Quite easily as well :))
I was already editing, you have the answer in the previous post.
 

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I don't see how scheduling cup games on top of European dates is an improvement. It doesn't 'benefit' the smaller club, as much as it just 'punishes' the club playing in Europe. Most clubs' focus will be on the more financially rewarding avenue. So in your example, any club will of course focus on Europe over the domestic cup. Which is the reason the dates were changed in the first place. To make the competition more enticing and less of a burden. If you're argument is that the coppa italia is less important than CL or EL, then we agree!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I don't see how scheduling cup games on top of European dates is an improvement. It doesn't 'benefit' the smaller club, as much as it just 'punishes' the club playing in Europe. Most clubs' focus will be on the more financially rewarding avenue. So in your example, any club will of course focus on Europe over the domestic cup. Which is the reason the dates were changed in the first place. To make the competition more enticing and less of a burden. If you're argument is that the coppa italia is less important than CL or EL, then we agree!
No, my argument is that in order to help the big clubs reaching the final and thus obtain the purpose the Lega have transformed the Italian Cup in a sort of enlarged Trofeo Moretti, in which basically every round played before the 1/8 finals is absolutely pointless, then in the 1/8 or qf the minor clubs eventually survived fall because they have no chance to win two away games in a row to stronger clubs and finally in the semifinals the 2-legged Birra Morettone starts with the top clubs. (HBD)
 

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No, my argument is that in order to help the big clubs reaching the final and thus obtain the purpose the Lega have transformed the Italian Cup in a sort of enlarged Trofeo Moretti, in which basically every round played before the 1/8 finals is absolutely pointless, then in the 1/8 or qf the minor clubs eventually survived fall because they have no chance to win two away games in a row to stronger clubs and finally in the semifinals the 2-legged Birra Morettone starts with the top clubs. (HBD)
I'm not sure what (HBD) means, so if it means 'STOP' then I apologize. There are only 2 factors that I see can be truly argued that the big clubs may be getting favored, and only 1 seems unfair.

1)Late entry in to the competition -- This is a clear favor.
2)Home games. - The promoters want the game to be as big as it can be, and the big clubs, have the big stadiums.

The promoters want the big clubs there in the end. -- Big clubs = more fans = more money. The 2 legged setup definitely favors the bigger club, but so does the season long league schedule.

*Even if we disagree on the amount that the competition favors the big clubs, how does this prove it doesn't matter in Italy? Italian teams sure like to state how many they've won on their websites, publicity events, and even uniforms. I guess it only matters each year to the team that wins!
 

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For someone who doesn't give a toss about the Coppa Italia, Toni sure wastes a lot of time discussing it ;) :D :tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
*Even if we disagree on the amount that the competition favors the big clubs, how does this prove it doesn't matter in Italy? Italian teams sure like to state how many they've won on their websites, publicity events, and even uniforms. I guess it only matters each year to the team that wins!
Genoa won 9 scudetti before 1924 and the first of them was won in one day day: semifinal in the morning+final in the afternoon. Yeah, those are scudetti nevertheless and if Genoa ever won one more they could add a star on their shirt but can we really compare the scudetto of 1898 to the scudetto of the season 2012-2013? Not really!
In the same way the Italian Cup which is won nowadays is a title but we can't compare it to the Italian Cups won after playing 13 games. In 1982/83 (random season) the minor clubs also had one more game at home than the big clubs in the one-legged group stage (group of 6, 5 games). Then 1/8, qf, sf and final were all 2-legged.
The ruin was the CL with its money because the numbers of games of the European competitions was increased and the big clubs started to press the Italian Lega for a reduction of the games of the Italian Cup. Note: the clubs of serie A were increased to 20 for 38 games (as a consequence of the money coming from televisions of course). The Italian Cup was a competition televisions did not give a **** for and so the number of games could be cut. Was it enough? No. The big clubs also wanted the stadium incomes so a rule was needed. Is there a better rule then a fake democratic rule like the one of the position in the previous serie A championship as a priority to choose the home team? Together with the incomes of the stadium the higher chance to qualify because, hey, the advantage to play at home is not a little thing. Was it enough? No, not yet. Let's give more money to the winners, finalists, semifinalis.... Who are the winners, finalists, semifinalists in a competition in which the little clubs have it so difficult that sparing energies for the championship is probably the best thing?
 

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Coppa Italia aka CL Football for Roma. This is the only knockout tournament that Roma have ever done well in. lol

They're always favorites!
 
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