Xtratime Community banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All the Italian teams have disappeared from the European top.
Some experts think they know the cause:
In Italy foreign players don't get any room to develope themselves and are sold much too fast.

"This is a dreadful moment in our history of football. We were there for 13 years, but now other clubs are succesful with our so-called trash."

On Wednesday Italian daily "La Stampa" published an impressive list of 18 foreigners, whom were sold by Italian clubs, but all reached either the semi's of the Champions League or the final of the UEFA Cup with their new clubs now.

The names:
Frenchman Angloma (Inter, Valencia), Bergkamp (Inter, Arsenal), Swede Bjorklund (Vicenza, Valencia), Bogarde (Milan, Barcelona), German Effenberg (Fiorentina, Bayern), Rumanian Hagi (Brescia, Galatasaray), Turk Sukur (Torino, Galatasaray), Spaniard Helguera (Roma, Real), Frenchman Henry (Juventus, Arsenal), Nigerian Kanu (Inter, Arsenal), Frenchman Karembeu (Sampdoria, Real), Kluivert (Milan, Barcelona), Brazilian Sergio (Roma, Bayern), Reiziger (Milan, Barcelona), Brazilian Carlos (Inter, Real), Brazilian Taffarel (Parma, Reggina, Galatasaray), Frenchman Vieira (Milan, Arsenal) and Croat Vlaovic (Padova, Valencia).

The 'black list' ends with "our very succesful emigrant, a great player who was too old for Italy": Amadeo Carboni (35). From 1985 till '97 he played for Bari, Empoli, Sampdoria and Roma and after that he was passed on to Valencia like trash. The very same Valencia that crashed our Lazio.

One of the main responsibles for the Italian system, Milan's general manager Braida, will be called to account.
He was the one who told Frenchman Patrick Vieira to leave after 2 matches. Winston Bogarde played just 3 matches and Michael Reiziger had to go after 10 performances.
Milan's biggest mistake hasn't even been mentioned yet. They sold the competition's best player, perhaps the world's best player, Edgar Davids, to Juve for only 7 million.
Braida: "If we would have known how these players would develope, we would have kept all of them, that's a fact. It's all about quick success nowadays. But we are all guilty. Managers, press and fans, we want to win too much......too fast.

"A Roma solo la Lazio!"

Lazia



[This message has been edited by Lazia (edited 30-04-2000).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Maybe they are right.... but for me this is once again a sign that the Italian league is very hard and there is so much pressure that can't be compared to any other league.

Some players' can't handle the pressure....and now they are doing very well in other leagues where there is almost no pressure.

Maybe some of the players' could have turned out to be good players in Italy too, but I think that generally they were not good enough.

Look at Henry at Arsenal, I mean, he is doing whatever he wants in PL. But in Italy he was not that good, he was an average player at Juventus.

FORZALAZIO !!
http://Laziomania.socceralliance.com
 
G

·
How many games did Henry start for Juve?It took him a while to settle in at Arsenal.Maybe Juve should have given him more time to settle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Good point, Mattias! I also think it has got something to do with whether a player is able to handle the pressure or not.. What exactly makes Serie A the toughest league according to you?

Denis1501, I don't know how many matches Henry started for Juve, but indeed, it is a fact that every player should be given enough time to settle. Playing only 2, 3 or 10 matches is clearly not enough to adjust to the rest of the team!
It's true that we want too much too fast. We buy a whole team of very expensive players one day, and expect them to functionate like a great team the next! Unfortunately that's not the way it works!

What I'm sure of is that some fans are guilty as well... Just take a look at some posts on this board! Salas doesn't perform well for a while and some of us start screaming he should go somewhere else. It's sad to see. We always tend to forget about what a player did for us in the past! We shouldn't keep him just because of that ofcourse, but why doesn't anyone believe he might recover and get back to his old form?

One more thing... Why do you guys think it's just the foreigners? Perhaps it's because Italian players are used to the pressure... But too much pressure is something no one can handle! And nowadays schedules will cause too much pressure in the end, I guess.
What if a player like Nesta would have a break-down for a few months? Would we start to post topics like "Get rid of Nesta" as well?

"A Roma solo la Lazio!"

Lazia



[This message has been edited by Lazia (edited 30-04-2000).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Lazia, I think that you are right about the pressure on Italians too, but they have growned up with that pressure. It's different for Bergkamp (just to take an example). He came from Holland where I don't really think that the pressure is too heavy to support, he came to Italy and he wasn't exactly a star ...

About what makes Serie A the toughest league? I think (this is only my opinion) that it's not possible for a league to have 7 teams that are build before the season to win the league title. Every game becomes too important, and also to not relegate. In Italy 4 teams of 18 are relegated. If I am not wrong, in PL 3 of 20 are relegated. This pressure in EVERY game, to stay clear from relegation or to win the league makes it impossible for the players to only go out on the field and play a great game.

And apart from those 7 top teams, there are teams like Udinese and usually Bologna, who use to be just behind the best teams. This year Udinese has even more points than Fiorentina. Just look at Udinese's team, they have sold their best players every year, but they are still there at the top. I think this is great !!

And also the Italian mentality makes it very hard for the players, in Italy there is some kind of need to blame someone. If it is not the referee than it is the players. roma's president sensi said after the latest derby that roma lost because they had Lupatelli as keeper and not Antonioli. Great move by roma's idiot-president....how does he think Lupatelli feels after his first game in the roma jersey, and where he is blamed for the loss by the president.
And I think we all can agree that none of the goals were Lupatelli's fault, or ?

FORZALAZIO !!
http://Laziomania.socceralliance.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The mentality issue is very interesting.
In fact, that might be a very important reason for Serie A being the toughest League!
It's true that the Italians always need to blame someone or something. It's never "we've lost", but always "we've lost because of..."!
Even though Lupatelli's a Roma player, I feel sorry for the guy. Ofcourse some goals are sometimes just the goalie's fault, but mostly goals say a lot more about the way the defence functionates! Perhaps Sensi should start himself next time! ;)
A team like Udinese...unbelievable! I also think it's great to see! It makes me realize it's not all just about who has got the money!

Well, there is becoming more and more pressure in the Dutch League. At least, when I look at Ajax' and Feyenoord's recent troubles, I think there is! But these problems had more to do with coaches than with players. And, to get back to mentalities, we also blame persons, but we don't hold it against them for long and try to look at the next match instead! Besides, we're not in the position to sell every player that doesn't perform well. Simply because we don't have as much subs as Italian teams do! So, money seems to be a subject as well...

In the end I think this is more of a pressure problem for the players mentioned above indeed. For all, a lot of foreigners do succeed in Italy. Just look at our own Boksic and Nedved! Apparently they were able to deal with it!

"A Roma solo la Lazio!"

Lazia

[This message has been edited by Lazia (edited 30-04-2000).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,095 Posts
Mattias, you wrote that Henry does well in EPL but he was an average player in Juve, what's that mean ? Is that mean EPL lower class (in skill, competition, pressure, or ?) with Italian League ?

I think the worst Italian club have is theyaren't able to keep the playesr who have (temporary) bad performance.
They need to adapt with new league, new language, new team mates, new coach, new strategy, etc .
Inter threw Kanu away because he has problem with his heart and Inter didn't believe they can compete other clubs with this kind player, but they wrong. So what I'm trying to say is Italian Club should give more time to those new foreigners.

But I never think that EPL or other leagues are in lower class than Serie A.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,168 Posts
Interesting topic. I must say my sentiments on this one resembles Mattias'. Still we can't be oblivious to the fact that the big Italian teams seem to be too loose on the tricker occasionally.
Henry- well, it's a bit difficult to say, because he was bought to be a wing at Juve and he wouldn't get alot of games there. As a striker he would get even fewer, and getting good money he was sold. Obviously he was worth alot more than we got, looking at his exploits in Premier League now. Well- it happens. Happened with Vieri- happened again with Henry.
I don't think Lazio is doing this so often. One reason could be that Lazio is a relatively new topteam, and that You guys haven't had this kind of depth for that many years.
The Italian team that really started this buying frenzy was definately Milan and I can't help a little snigger when I see the names flung out of the Diavolo's door.
Imagine Milan with Davids and Viera in central midfield, Kluivert partnering Sheva up front and Reiziger to help Maldini and Chamot out in their sorry defence.
He he- too bad :).

Ciao.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Lazindo01, I don't think Mattias is trying to say PL is lower class than Serie A.
Serie A is just tougher because of competition, style and pressure. Lower class has got nothing to do with it! You can't even compare Serie A and PL. Too many differences!

"A Roma solo la Lazio!"

Lazia

[This message has been edited by Lazia (edited 30-04-2000).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Lazindo, let's say like this…. It's harder to play in Serie A than in PL !
Then it's up to you, is it lower class or what could it be… :)

About Kanu, Inter threw him away ??????
Man, what are you talking about !?!?! Inter (Moratti) saved Kanu's life. Moratti payed everything for Kanu so he could go to USA, get the best doctors and everything else that Kanu could have needed. And this to save his life because of heart problems.
Then Kanu came back but he was not good enough for Inter and Serie A, so they sold him….end of story.

It's not that I particularly like Inter, but I think that what Moratti did to Kanu was very nice, he saved his life ! :)

FORZALAZIO !!
http://Laziomania.socceralliance.com
 

·
Xtratime Allstar
Joined
·
9,820 Posts
thats just the way it is!!
you gave about 15 examples
i can give you 100 if you want.
the reason is that the clubs has so many great players and not space for them all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
Lazia, you are mostly right about that fact.But i don't understand why you and some others did not respect my opinion about batistuta in another forum? You said lazio is not an argentian team.Nobody said the same things about Crespo before? Isn't he argentinian? Plus, if you insist lazio is an italian team why you care about foreigners this time? Isn't that a contradiction?
Also i believe, in football STABILITY is very important.So We should not change the team too much.Just 2-3 good players we need.And if you can see we need a good-all around-(mostly header)-striker.
You talking about Carboni? Would you like to see him playing for Lazio? Me? No off course not! In the first game i accept lazio made defensive mistakes.But coglione si chiama Markus Merk made this result.He did not whistle our 2 clear penalties (to Veron).And i could not believe how he didn't?
If lazio plays with Valencia 100 times we beat them at least 95 ! But this was a chance + l'arbitro !
Don't get tired about thinking of selling players.
But please care about selling Vieri.Someone should tell him to stay but did not!Because we needed him! Off course lazio needs players like Nesta but how many of them are Lazio fans? They play football just for money ! They don't think the way we do! So Vieri can come back which i do really hope!


[This message has been edited by blackeagle (edited 30-04-2000).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
First of all, blackeagle, I never disrespected your opinion. I just gave you my point of view, which is different. I think I'm entitled to do so, am I not?

If you would have suggested to buy Crespo, I would have given you the same answer: Lazio shouldn't become a second Argentina.

I don't insist Lazio should be an Italian team, Lazio IS an Italian team. There are so many great, Italian (youth) players. I really think, before we start talking about more foreigners, we should pay some more attention to them!
Chelsea for example... It's supposed to be an English team, but mostly there's only ONE Englishman involved. Sometimes we're even looking at 11 non-English players! Excuse me, but I think it's absurd! Would you like to see the same thing happening to Lazio?? I wouldn't!

I think you misunderstood the meaning of this topic! It doesn't show how much I care about foreign players, so I don't know why you're talking about contradictions.
I thought it was an interesting issue, the link between Italian clubs getting rid of their foreigners too fast and the fact that the Italian clubs have disappeared from the European top of football!

I you would have taken a closer look at my first post, you would have noticed that the list of foreigners came from the Italian daily "La Stampa"! I didn't come up with it myself! They mentioned Amadeo Carboni in that list, because he failed in Italy, but succeeded in Spain. Did I ever say I want him at Lazio? No! So, please don't start putting words in my mouth!

I'm very sorry, but I do get tired of the selling/buying topics! It seems like it's the only issue some people are able to talk about: next season! What about this season? Have we all forgotten about the fact that it's not over yet? We're still in the race for "lo scudetto" (Juve is losing as I speak!) and the Coppa Italia is within reach! Starting to talk about selling and buying is a sign of giving up to me! Why don't you guys start predicting next season's matches as well?? Ofcourse you've got the right to talk about it, but please don't expect me (and some other people) to like it and participate, 'cause it won't happen!

You just brought up something I already discussed with Mattias! A certain mentality! Always feeling the need to blame someone for losing a match! You blame the ref for Lazio-Valencia. It's so easy, always blaming someone else! What about: scoring 3 goals was just too hard for us, or: we just weren't lucky? Get over it! We'll get a second chance in CL...next season!

"A Roma solo la Lazio!"

Lazia
 
G

·
This is an interesting discussion. I would just like to add that one thing I really like about our coach Ericsson is that he doesn't blame everything and everyone when things aren't going our way. I hope more owners/coaches will adapt this attitude in the future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,844 Posts
Yeah, there's no use to blame others...even if they are actually to blame, many times there's hardly anything we can do about it...So it's a good thing, very good thing indeed, that Sven doesn't waste his energy on blaming others...referees, players(unlike Van Gaal), weather conditions... :)
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top