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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
XT peoooooooons, we have been told time and time again by the media, old relatives, and or willed ignorant individuals about these mythical football legends of yesteryears.

Stanley Matthews and his (Matthews Feint) – With all due respect, but this so called “feint” is repeatedly done week in – week out by all kinds of players around the world. Yes, I’ve heard the stories he was “The Wizard of Dribble” how he played until age 50 and how his first pet was a Tyrannosaurus Rex, etc.

Luis Monti – (Double Wide) the first true hard-nose DM/CM a dirty player, etc. His fat arse would get tossed around all over the pitch in today’s era! Pobresito, he would beg Mascherano for his life!

Didi and his (Folca Seca/Dry Leaf) – What technique to bend the ball…That’s nice and dandy but guess what? Everybody does it now, heck even my cousin’s 8 year old daughter can pull off the Folca Seca as good if not better than Didi :D:D:D (Don’t get me wrong I would still want this guy in my team, probably as a reserve though).

Rivelino and his (Elastico) – Every single time I’ve seen him pull of this move he seems to do it in slow motion! Ronaldo :howler::happy:, Ronaldinho, and even Ibrahimovic have perfected and added speed to “his elastico”.

Leonidas and his (bicycle kick/scissor kick) – Pele, Hugo Sanchez, MVB, and Rivaldo all make his “bicycle” kick look like a damn tricycle!

So what is your point Dagoods?

All of these so called legends have been forced down your throats! I. E. Rivelino can you honestly say this guy was better than RIVALDO and Ronaldinho?

Luis Monti better than Mascherano?

Matthews over Best, Figo, Jairzinho, MESSI, or even that overrated poser C. Ronaldo?

AGAIN Monti over MASCHERANO? :howler::happy::tongue:

Nasazzi better than Nesta?

Zamora over Schmeichel, Buffon, and Casillas?

Leonidas over Ibrahimovic :D?

Are we overrating these past legends or underrating these modern day legends?

Folks, you have been influenced and probably mislead without even knowing it. The Original is not always better, there’s always room for improvement! Therefore, I have come up with a grading system which is relatively easy to use:

LEGEND – ZICO/Rivera
GREAT – RIVALDO (Sorry Rihana)/Baggio
OVERRATED PIECE OF TRASH – RONALDINHO :D/Totti :D:D:D

Aren’t you XT posters tired of being told how to think and aren’t you tired of abiding to the norm, rules, and regulations? PELE is the greatest of all-time if you don’t agree with this (YOU ARE A MORON) He was able to score from midfield by pulling off a bicycle kick etc. O Rei scored 1282 goals, used to play nearly 90 games a season, he scored 1000 goals by age 29 :D…You see these past greats are only as good as they want us to believe!

XT, we have come so far. We have seen so much. But there is so much more to do. So tonight, let us ask ourselves -- if your children (future delinquents bunch of parasites) should live to see and post in this very same board in the next century; if my future heirs should be so lucky to live as long as Ann Nixon Cooper, what change will they see? What progress will we (as a footy community) have made?
This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. It starts right here/right now. Change is coming to XT :drool:!
 

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It's not a case of if "original" is always better. It's a case of "perspective".

Players from past era pioneered certain ideas in football, and of course over time they may be perfected by others. The sport is always evolving, and back then you have to also take into account things like the balls and football boots they used were not as good as they are now. Fitness and training methods were world's apart too. Modern football and football from eras gone by are like different sports.

It's cliché but it's difficult to compare players from different eras, just taking one individual like Messi and comparing him say to Rivelino. So many variables, it just isnt simple.

Regardless of eras and all that, all I will say is guys like Matthews, Rivelino and Didi were all excellent players. Past and present players both get over and underrated all the time and will continue to do so. It's all about perspective.
 

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your logic fails at one point. you said:

Leonidas and his (bicycle kick/scissor kick) – Pele, Hugo Sanchez, MVB, and Rivaldo all make his “bicycle” kick look like a damn tricycle!

leonidas who is credited with inventing bicycle kick didn't have millions of other cases before him scoring a bicycle kick. if he truly did invent it then it was something completely unseen before. that makes his bicycle kick more worthy than all other bicycle and "tricycle" kicks that came afterward.
 

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Dagoods, it is not about who come first, it is about who did and we remember.
 

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I actually agree with some of this. I have heard statements on this forum saying stuff like if you don't rate pele as the best you don't know football- bullshit. Someday some of the oldschoolers are gonna have to accept that the modern generation is capable of producing legends that are better then the greats of all time. I bet No one thought in the early 80s that there would be someone of peles level yet then comes maradona
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #8
your logic fails at one point. you said:

Leonidas and his (bicycle kick/scissor kick) – Pele, Hugo Sanchez, MVB, and Rivaldo all make his “bicycle” kick look like a damn tricycle!

leonidas who is credited with inventing bicycle kick didn't have millions of other cases before him scoring a bicycle kick. if he truly did invent it then it was something completely unseen before. that makes his bicycle kick more worthy than all other bicycle and "tricycle" kicks that came afterward.
So nobody did the Matthews feint prior to him, so does that make him a legend? His signature move is done by anybody and everybody nowadays...It has been perfected ;) the same example goes for Leonidas :boxing:
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #9
It's not a case of if "original" is always better. It's a case of "perspective".

Players from past era pioneered certain ideas in football, and of course over time they may be perfected by others. The sport is always evolving, and back then you have to also take into account things like the balls and football boots they used were not as good as they are now. Fitness and training methods were world's apart too. Modern football and football from eras gone by are like different sports.

It's cliché but it's difficult to compare players from different eras, just taking one individual like Messi and comparing him say to Rivelino. So many variables, it just isnt simple.

Regardless of eras and all that, all I will say is guys like Matthews, Rivelino and Didi were all excellent players. Past and present players both get over and underrated all the time and will continue to do so. It's all about perspective.

Good post :thmbup: but now let me ask you this. Would you take Matthews, Didi, and Rivelino uhhhhhhhhhhhm lets say over Messi, Redondo, and Ronaldinho/Rivaldo???

You're a Milan fan, the bandiera of Milan is GIANNI RIVERA...would you choose him over a player like Messi?
 

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Just to throw a spanner in the works.

If these players of the past are supposedly overrated because they aren't as refined as the players of today, then why is Pele still the greatest of all time? Don't you think if you plucked Pele out of the 1960's and threw him into modern football that he wouldn't be anywhere near as perfect as he was 40 years ago?

As you said, there's room for improvement. Zico, Ronaldo, even Ronaldinho and Kaká have improved upon and sped up what they had as a base - Pele and his talents.

:undecide:
 

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Do not worry, Dagoods would take a crippled Cubijas and Chumpitaz over all peruvians players of today. Signature or not :D
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Just to throw a spanner in the works.

If these players of the past are supposedly overrated because they aren't as refined as the players of today, then why is Pele still the greatest of all time? Don't you think if you plucked Pele out of the 1960's and threw him into modern football that he wouldn't be anywhere near as perfect as he was 40 years ago?

As you said, there's room for improvement. Zico, Ronaldo, even Ronaldinho and Kaká have improved upon and sped up what they had as a base - Pele and his talents.

:undecide:
Good point Zico, this is what I what I'm looking for (quality posts) :D!

Let me make myself perfectly clear. Dagoods considers PELE to be the all-time greatest! But what makes Pele so great, what makes him so mythical? 1282 goals, 3 World Cups, 1000 goals by age 29…these are some components that make or break his MYTH, for the most part.
But this "notion" of Pele "RIPPIN IT UP" in today's era is quite laughable. He would probably be a star (great player) and potentially a LEGEND but his "MYTH" would take a big hit! He wouldn’t be as DOMINANT as before. That's like saying Wilt Chamberlain would score 100 points in one game or average 50 pts per game for an entire season in today's era. Not happening folks...

Well 1282 goals IS NOT easy in any ERA that’s for sure. Well averaging 30 rebounds a game, 50 pts a game, 100 points in one game is not easy either. BUT if you are facing a bunch of scrubs (that probably wouldn’t be professionals by today standards) day in and day out, on top of that, ADD non-existent defensive schemes/poor tactics; well it just makes it a little bit easier to dominate and put up big numbers!

Wilt surpassed/broke all of Mikan’s scoring records. Kareem had to play 20 years to surpass Chamberlain’s scoring record…(that’s 5 more years) and keep in mind KAREEM retired just when the league got DEFENSIVELY tighter. Again where am I going with this?

Well Romario (one of the best strikers ever) had to play until age 40+ to reach 1000 goals. He came to the Brazilian league after his Europe Odyssey and played for 9 more years to reach his goal. Pele was 29 when he scored his 1000th goal LOL what in the woooooooooooooooooooooorld! (Yes Pele played 90+ games a season, that wouldn't HAPPEN now that's for sure. Another sign of how things have changed)

Do you think that’s normal? A certain MICHAEL JORDAN played in a HARDER era than both Wilt and Kareem and still managed to come close to their scoring record (4th place). He faced the bad boys, the knicks, etc. Defense in the late 80’s – entire 90’s was way tougher than what it is today. However, he still managed to end up with the all-time best points per game ratio in NBA history, yes surpassing Wilt. Put JORDAN in wilt’s era…put RONALDO in pele’s era and I bet both WOULD dominate and have a field day as the other two did.

Pele’s 1282 goals and 3 World Cups for the most part makes him the mythical figure that he is. If he were to play in this era his tally of 1282 would DECREASE. I’m not saying he would no longer be considered a legend or one of the all-time greats but the Pele as we know him, the dominant figure that he was; would be no more. You can kiss scoring 60+ goals in a season goodbye. He could probably end up scoring 25-30 goals in a season for sure, easily. But then again isn’t that what guys like Romario, Ronaldo, Van Basten, even Etoo have already done? Oh wait my mistake Pele was not a pure striker he was more of a SS. Well on that note, Henry has hit the 25-30 goal mark in a season and he is no ST. Raul has also reached the 24-25 goals in a season twice as a SS, Del Piero & Baggio also in the 20’s etc.

Again, I’m not trying to belittle O Rei’s accomplishments at all. I’m just pointing out the obvious! O Rei was ahead of his time and the competition he faced was rather weak!
Pele is one of those LEGENDS who has and will remain to stand the test of time.

I’m trying to concentrate on other “so called/labeled” legends.

MATTHEWS – Surpassed by Garrincha, Best, and arguably Figo (some people SOMEHOW feel otherwise). Too many Jairzinho was even better? And there are so many other names that could easily replace “Matthews” but are NOT CONSIDERED LEGENDS! Didn’t Matthews end up # 11 in the IFFHSS all-time rankings? Or something…AHEAD of a Figo and a Jairzinho…? Do you get my point?

Now this works BOTH WAYS now. I would take N. Santos, Facchetti, and of course MALDINI over that piece of utter trash that is R. Carlos! Big fan of the singer but I really consider the footballer to be nothing more than hype! A not good enough LM/AM so he got stuck in defense, his SPEED was key and once that was gone; his career was DONE with!
I’m not biased …this system works both ways!
I just find it hard to believe how “Just Fontaine” and or “Giuseppe Meazza” were better footballers than uhhhhhhhm: Rummenigge and Rivaldo

So what makes a legend? This is what I want find out? Is it two WC’s and 2 UCL’s+ is just based on numbers/trophies won/talent? What?!
Here it is I found the list:
1. Edson Arantes do Nascimento Pelé Brasil 1705
2. Hendrik Johannes Cruijff Nederland 1303
3. Franz Beckenbauer Deutschland 1228
4. Alfredo Di Stéfano Argentina/España 1215
5. Diego Armando Maradona Argentina 1214
6. Ferenc Puskás Magyarország 810
7. Michel Platini France 722
8. Manoel dos Santos Garrincha Brasil 624
9. Eusébio da Silva Ferreira Portugal 544
10. Sir Robert Charlton England 508
11. Sir Stanley Matthews England 368
12. Marcel van Basten Nederland 315
13. Gerhard Müller Deutschland 265
14. Arthur Antunes Coimbra Zico Brasil 207
15. Lothar Matthäus Deutschland 202
16. George Best Northern Ireland 187
17. Juan Alberto Schiaffino Uruguay 158
18. Ruud Gullit Dil Nederland 119
19. Giovanni Rivera Italia 116

Valdir Pereira Didi Brasil 116
21. Giuseppe Meazza Italia 108
22. Matthias Sindelar Österreich 106
23. Fritz Walter Deutschland 103
24. Robert Moore England 98
25. José Manuel Moreno Argentina 96
26. Hugo Sánchez México 85
27. George Weah Liberia 79
28. Roger Milla Cameroun 78
29. José Leandro Andrade Uruguay 74
30. Francisco Gento España 73

Just Fontaine France 73
32. Ladislao Kubala España 71
33. Franco Baresi Italia 70
34. Josef Bican Ceskoslovensko 63
35. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Deutschland 59
36. Enrique Omar Sivori Argentina 56
37. Elías Ricardo Figueroa Chile 55
38. Kevin Keegan England 53
39. Sándor Kocsis Magyarország 52
40. Héctor Scarone Uruguay 51
41. Josef Masopust Ceskoslovensko 46
42. Giacinto Facchetti Italia 44
43. Alessandro Mazzola Italia 41

Raymond Kopa France 41
45. Uwe Seeler Deutschland 40
46. Gunnar Nordahl Sverige 36
47. Thomas Soãres Zizinho Brasil 35
48. Teófilo Cubillas Perú 34
49. Arsenio Pastor Erico Paraguay 30
50. Denis Law Scotland 29
Mali, can you believe ZIDANE didn’t make the TOP 50? :D Seriously I know this whole thing took place in 99 BUT (this is probably why we don’t see Ronaldo, Zidane, etc.) BUT MALDINI should have made the TOP 50 by 99, look MATTHEWS somehow ends up before RUMMENIGGE and GULLIT…heck even BEFORE ZICO :D

Andrade ranks 29? Schiaffo 17? What about ENZO?

No Roberto Baggio?! So if we could add players like Ronaldo, Zidane, Rivaldo, Baggio, Maldini, (CARLOS ALBERTO), Nesta , Cafu don’t you guys think they would REPLACE any of the names up ABOVE? Don’t you think MESSI has a good chance of breaking into this TOP 50? My point exactly!
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #13
Do not worry, Dagoods would take a crippled Cubijas and Chumpitaz over all peruvians players of today. Signature or not :D
:D:D:D Not over Ronaldo and Nesta I wouldn't :tongue:
 

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Are you really that retarded that you have to talk about yourself in the third person?

BTW, I bet you wouldn't apply the same standards to DiStefano or Puskas would you? Of course not.
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #15
Are you really that retarded that you have to talk about yourself in the third person?

BTW, I bet you wouldn't apply the same standards to DiStefano or Puskas would you? Of course not.
uuuuuuuuuuuuuh tough guy huh? let's see what you're made of tweety bird!

Let me quote Dagoods [myself, do you like that better :dazed:]

Dagoods said:
Now this works BOTH WAYS now. I would take N. Santos, Facchetti, and of course MALDINI over that piece of utter trash that is R. Carlos! Big fan of the singer but I really consider the footballer to be nothing more than hype! A not good enough LM/AM so he got stuck in defense, his SPEED was key and once that was gone; his career was DONE with!
I’m not biased …this system works both ways!
I just find it hard to believe how “Just Fontaine” and or “Giuseppe Meazza” were better footballers than uhhhhhhhm: Rummenigge and Rivaldo
Is that more clear bird brain?

Not ALL LEGENDS are overrated just take a good look at that list Dagoods provided? SOme of them names DEFINITLY do not BELONG there ;) that's all but yet bird brains like you STILL consider them "legends"...
 

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Good point Zico, this is what I what I'm looking for (quality posts) :D!

Let me make myself perfectly clear. Dagoods considers PELE to be the all-time greatest! But what makes Pele so great, what makes him so mythical? 1282 goals, 3 World Cups, 1000 goals by age 29…these are some components that make or break his MYTH, for the most part.
But this "notion" of Pele "RIPPIN IT UP" in today's era is quite laughable. He would probably be a star (great player) and potentially a LEGEND but his "MYTH" would take a big hit! He wouldn’t be as DOMINANT as before. That's like saying Wilt Chamberlain would score 100 points in one game or average 50 pts per game for an entire season in today's era. Not happening folks...
How many times I have to tell you, what makes Pele the one, is not having so many goals (great stuff) or titles( also great). Those are consequences. A landmark does not make up for a Country.
What is Pele is not even the fact he was absolutelly perfect physically (we have those), combined with perfect all around technique (we can have less of those, but they happens). It is how He played, how he caused an impact on the game and for so long. Pele was no just one world cup where he matured, he was like that for 12 years. Modern systems of defense, the notion of moderm footballer, etc. All created to deal with the impact of this player. He is the impact and such individuals would bring this capacity of impact everywhere. Of course, with perfect technique - he was physically as powerful as Ronaldo, with ball control to make Zidane look clumsy, finish to make Romario needs lessons, mobility to make Henry look like a lamplight, in One player. But it is his persona, the history on making - The thing that set Jordan apart as well - that is making the dfference. Stats means little (Or Kobe Bryant is that good now?), they are consequence and all humans are limited by time, space, action, luck.
At least you admit Pele would be a great player today. But now move to the next step: Pele today? Football would be something different. It would have been changed. It is silly for us to use this age traits if we are going to add something as different as Pele. Great Impact Players (as Pele, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Cruyft, Diego, Ronaldo, Di Steffano, Puskas, etc) are great impact players because they will change the way that the game is played. They have power to turn the river's water. And they will profit from it because all of them showed great capacity of adaptation. Pele with 17 was not the same as Pele with 30, Diego in 86, not the same in 90, Beckenbauer not the same in 66 and 74, Ronaldo, another player when fat like a whale. But they do it and have success. So it is silly, Pele today would be another Pele, just like the football today would be another.
Heck, it is obvious that no mathematic will show us Pele scoring 1200 goals now. It was an accident of destiny. He would not have the same stats if he played at same age with Botafogo instead of Santos. If he played in 30's. But why do you assume it will be authomatically less? It can be anything because Zico almost hit the 1000, being a middlefielders and with serious injuries. Romario? He only played when he wanted, never had half of the professionalism and dedication of Pele. So, saying it would have been different, it is obvious. Better or worst? Impossible to tell, but if we see guys like Inzaghi, Crouch, Guyvarch, Quaresma, Bierhoff, etc having sucess for top teams and nations, why I would think life got harder? Do not speculated as if there is only absolute truth, it is a more open game, accidents and capriches are going to happen. History does not repeat itself, it just hints at coincidences.

Quality is not about doing first or last, quality is lasting. Pele lasts? So, no argument in the world can make you change it.
 

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DAGOODS = RATINGS
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Discussion Starter #17
How many times I have to tell you, what makes Pele the one, is not having so many goals (great stuff) or titles( also great). Those are consequences. A landmark does not make up for a Country.
What is Pele is not even the fact he was absolutelly perfect physically (we have those), combined with perfect all around technique (we can have less of those, but they happens). It is how He played, how he caused an impact on the game and for so long. Pele was no just one world cup where he matured, he was like that for 12 years. Modern systems of defense, the notion of moderm footballer, etc. All created to deal with the impact of this player. He is the impact and such individuals would bring this capacity of impact everywhere. Of course, with perfect technique - he was physically as powerful as Ronaldo, with ball control to make Zidane look clumsy, finish to make Romario needs lessons, mobility to make Henry look like a lamplight, in One player. But it is his persona, the history on making - The thing that set Jordan apart as well - that is making the dfference. Stats means little (Or Kobe Bryant is that good now?), they are consequence and all humans are limited by time, space, action, luck.
At least you admit Pele would be a great player today. But now move to the next step: Pele today? Football would be something different. It would have been changed. It is silly for us to use this age traits if we are going to add something as different as Pele. Great Impact Players (as Pele, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Cruyft, Diego, Ronaldo, Di Steffano, Puskas, etc) are great impact players because they will change the way that the game is played. They have power to turn the river's water. And they will profit from it because all of them showed great capacity of adaptation. Pele with 17 was not the same as Pele with 30, Diego in 86, not the same in 90, Beckenbauer not the same in 66 and 74, Ronaldo, another player when fat like a whale. But they do it and have success. So it is silly, Pele today would be another Pele, just like the football today would be another.
Heck, it is obvious that no mathematic will show us Pele scoring 1200 goals now. It was an accident of destiny. He would not have the same stats if he played at same age with Botafogo instead of Santos. If he played in 30's. But why do you assume it will be authomatically less? It can be anything because Zico almost hit the 1000, being a middlefielders and with serious injuries. Romario? He only played when he wanted, never had half of the professionalism and dedication of Pele. So, saying it would have been different, it is obvious. Better or worst? Impossible to tell, but if we see guys like Inzaghi, Crouch, Guyvarch, Quaresma, Bierhoff, etc having sucess for top teams and nations, why I would think life got harder? Do not speculated as if there is only absolute truth, it is a more open game, accidents and capriches are going to happen. History does not repeat itself, it just hints at coincidences.

Quality is not about doing first or last, quality is lasting. Pele lasts? So, no argument in the world can make you change it.
Great post JC,

Why do I assume his goal scoring would decrease?

the evolution of tactics and defensive schemes. Some of the players he faced probably wouldn’t be professionals today. He excelled during his time because of his attributes and one of his best attributes was HIS SPEED. Well now there are players who are as fast if not faster than him (RONALDO, Kaka, Henry etc) and there are DEFENDERS who are faster than he was. So he won’t have certain advantages he had back in his era. Also as a support striker his main role would be A) to assist/create scoring opportunities for the striker in front of him. Name me a support striker (in this modern era) who averaged 90+ goals as a SS in this era?

Again folks 1282 GOALS is not easy to score in ANY ERA...but O Rei pulled it off! But in today's era those numbers are simply unheard of and it's NOT because of lack of talent!
 

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I think a good deal of decrease of goal ratios is more to do that at some point teams will defend small advantages, in the past, they would take the advantage to kill with gore but There would not even exist those tatics without Pele. Move him from 60's to know and you may have another history. Probally, Argentina would have like 6,7 world cups and brazil none. (Do not forget that those numbers are unheard in the 60's also. Coutinho or Vava scored only 1/4 of Pele goals playing against the same guys, the same number of time, etc)
And supporting striker? Since it is another story, he could even be a central defender those days...
 
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