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Discussion Starter #1
We've seen many Asian players starting to get more attention from European teams, giving more exposure to them. It is not a big risk taking up an Asian player anymore compared to 5 years ago.

Last time, we've only seen the likes of Karim Bagheri, Ali Daei, Mehdi Mahdavikia & Hidetoshi Nakata playing overseas, now its Hashemian, Nakamura, Cha Du-Ri and many more plying their trade in Europe. Not many of them are key players of their teams, however some of them did play a significant role throughout their stay.

The level of technical competency has improved, so has the physical fitness and toughness. Tactically, we are still a few steps behind, however that doesn't mean we do not have natural footballers being born daily over here.

Japan's results in friendlies and little tournaments are quite encouraging, and the likes of Korea getting friendlies against European countries for their warm up games is pleasant.

There may be many conspiracy theories behind Korea's march to the last four of the WC2002, but they did give their opponents good games, and scored some good goals themselves.

Even the likes of Australia, who has more well-known & established footballers plying their trade around Europe, are acknowledging Asia's rise in world football by asking for permission to play in Asia's world cup qualifying rounds.

Do you guys think that we are genuinely starting to come good after years of effort, or we are just a bunch of kiss-asses looking around for some easy ride into world football fame :D:pp :)
 

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karrmadamaii said:
Last time, we've only seen the likes of Karim Bagheri, Ali Daei, Mehdi Mahdavikia & Hidetoshi Nakata playing overseas, now its Hashemian, Nakamura, Cha Du-Ri and many more plying their trade in Europe. Not many of them are key players of their teams, however some of them did play a significant role throughout their stay.
No question. European sides are increasingly fielding Asian players and obtaining good results with them. So far they have had limited opportunities to play with big clubs, but Nakata for example played a critical cameo in Roma winning the scudetto in 2001 :star:.

The practice of Asian players being fielded for marketing purposes however must be eliminated. Messina, for example, has brought in Yanagisawa this season strictly for financial reasons. It was largely the same with Everton and Lie Tie. It creates a credibility problem for Asian players that they don't need and puts pressure on them as they know that the media and fans will be suspicious of them.

For the record though, Messina also field Rahman Rezaei (from Iran) in the side on a regular basis. He is not there for commercial reasons but because he is a solid defender, and is helping Messina to do well in Serie A this season :star:

karrmadamaii said:
The level of technical competency has improved, so has the physical fitness and toughness. Tactically, we are still a few steps behind, however that doesn't mean we do not have natural footballers being born daily over here.
This kind of argument, both in terms of physique and technical ability etc seems to vary widely in different regions of Asia. Technically a player like Nakamura can easily hold his own in Europe, while some of the big Iranian players have had no problems in a physical environment like the Bundesliga. :strong:

As far as tactics are concerned, this is not just the domain of players but also managers. And they can be imported from anywhere. Asian nations may even be favoured in this regard as their players seem to display more discipline than many of the best European or South American players ever have. :)


karrmadamaii said:
Japan's results in friendlies and little tournaments are quite encouraging, and the likes of Korea getting friendlies against European countries for their warm up games is pleasant.
Forget about friendlies, the big countries don't take them seriously in the least. Italy just had a scoreless draw this morning/last night at home with Iceland. When played like this (B sides, 11 substitutions etc) these matches are absolutely meaningless.

karrmadamaii said:
There may be many conspiracy theories behind Korea's march to the last four of the WC2002, but they did give their opponents good games, and scored some good goals themselves.
Don't talk about that tournament. It's counter-productive. Asian football is looking for credibility not contempt. That world cup was disgraceful, and that's being kind :stuckup:


karrmadamaii said:
Even the likes of Australia, who has more well-known & established footballers plying their trade around Europe, are acknowledging Asia's rise in world football by asking for permission to play in Asia's world cup qualifying rounds.
We'd be honoured to play in Asia, and we respect your national teams. Don't listen to South_Melbourne and his stories about how we'd comfortably trounce an All-Star Asian XI. he's a patriot and i respect that, but he takes it a bit too far sometimes ;)

karrmadamaii said:
Do you guys think that we are genuinely starting to come good after years of effort, or we are just a bunch of kiss-asses looking around for some easy ride into world football fame :D:pp :)
Improving definitely. Naturally, there's a long way to go before China can hope to challenge Brazil. but then there was also a time when England was apparently the undisputed master of the game, and we all know that any country in Asia from Hong Kong to Qatar can easily beat them know ;) :D
 

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All that I have to say is that there is a HUGE amount of potential for Asia to field some serious teams by 2010/2014. There will probably be at least one or two Asian clubs in the round of 16 in Germany too. There are many overated European clubs at the moment and I think that even Germany is going to have problems at home, but we all know how unpredictable the Germans can be.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Vagabondo said:
The practice of Asian players being fielded for marketing purposes however must be eliminated. Messina, for example, has brought in Yanagisawa this season strictly for financial reasons. It was largely the same with Everton and Lie Tie. It creates a credibility problem for Asian players that they don't need and puts pressure on them as they know that the media and fans will be suspicious of them.
Having followed the EPL more often than other leagues due to the fact that I support liverpool, I didn't make the connection that Li Tie and the Chinese sponsors of Everton at that time had anything to do with each other. Thus I judged Li Tie's performances as a nuetral and I have to say, he did a solid job at the very least. Nothing spectacular, but held his own rather well in central midfield coming up against the likes of Vieira, Gerrard, Keane, Ince and others. Plays a role in helping with the team's attacking play at that time too. It is when he got injured that we started to see more of Gravesen together with Carlsley.

Vagabondo said:
As far as tactics are concerned, this is not just the domain of players but also managers. And they can be imported from anywhere. Asian nations may even be favoured in this regard as their players seem to display more discipline than many of the best European or South American players ever have. :)
It doesn't help that footballers coming from recognized football nations like many latin american countries, and also many eastern european countries can be considered natural born footballers, in technique and mind.

There is a collective lack of standard in the general tactical awareness if the game in the majority of the footbaling crowds compared to the rest of the world, esp Europe & Latin America. Perhaps its our Asian nature of not being vocal and loud in our actions which sees not many Asian ppl being vocal and able to articulate their thoughts on football well to others that has given me this impression. But looking at the football level of the countries in my region and comparing it to simliar regions in the rest of the world, we do not hold our own as good as they can be against good teams most of the time.

Vagabondo said:
Forget about friendlies, the big countries don't take them seriously in the least. Italy just had a scoreless draw this morning/last night at home with Iceland. When played like this (B sides, 11 substitutions etc) these matches are absolutely meaningless.
True, but to a certain extent, a tournament meant as a warm-up for the squad facing a bigger tournament would still see them play at 70% of their level, plus the fact that reputation and possible marketing revenue at hand would at least induce some sort of motivation to the big teams.

Vagabondo said:
Don't talk about that tournament. It's counter-productive. Asian football is looking for credibility not contempt. That world cup was disgraceful, and that's being kind :stuckup:
I do not have any personal opinions regarding the external factors and matters regarding that world cup. I took the games at they come. As much as it seemed impossible that Korea marched that far, they didn't not look like they didn't it at all. Even if they did get some kind of help from the referees, if they didn' convert their chances it wouldn't have mattered anyway. The fact remains that they took their chances as well. Turkey managed to get 3 past them, and even Germany managed to get past them with less chances than Spain had.


:)
 

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karrmadamaii said:
Having followed the EPL more often than other leagues due to the fact that I support liverpool, I didn't make the connection that Li Tie and the Chinese sponsors of Everton at that time had anything to do with each other. Thus I judged Li Tie's performances as a nuetral and I have to say, he did a solid job at the very least. Nothing spectacular, but held his own rather well in central midfield coming up against the likes of Vieira, Gerrard, Keane, Ince and others. Plays a role in helping with the team's attacking play at that time too. It is when he got injured that we started to see more of Gravesen together with Carlsley.
Li Tie was in the Everton side for strictly commercial reasons. Of course they were going to select one of China's best players and so naturally he would have done a "solid" job, but do you really think he would have been the side but for the sponsorship deal. To be honest i'd say Everton probably wouldn't have even looked at him in the first place, regardless of what he had to offer them football wise, if it was just a question of ability. They would have just picked someone who was English and probably saved on his wages for that matter

It's this kind of thing that damages the reputation of Asian players more than anything else. Players should not be sought for commercial reasons, it damages clubs on the field (see Beckham at Real Madrid) and, in the case of Asian football, also the prestige of the individuals who are brought to clubs mainly as a promotion. On the other hand if Hiddink thought a couple of his Korean NT players were up to it and brought them to PSV then that shows he had confidence in them and that he thought they could get the job done. This is an example of Asian players succeeding in Europe.

karrmadamaii said:
It doesn't help that footballers coming from recognized football nations like many latin american countries, and also many eastern european countries can be considered natural born footballers, in technique and mind.
Nobody is born knowing anything, least of all football. there are inherited traits which assist a player in learning, but even the best players have to develop their technique and tactical efficiency. If bringing in foreign coaches can assist in this process, then i can't see a problem at all.

karrmadamaii said:
True, but to a certain extent, a tournament meant as a warm-up for the squad facing a bigger tournament would still see them play at 70% of their level, plus the fact that reputation and possible marketing revenue at hand would at least induce some sort of motivation to the big teams.
No you'll find that big teams just don't care. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it's true. Brazil play teams like Hong Kong mostly for promotional reasons, to make some money for federations and because sponsors like Nike force them to. They provide neither training nor motivation for players who are clearly on a different level. In short, Ronaldo really couldn't care less how many goals he can put through a team like Singapore, end of story.

karrmadamaii said:
I do not have any personal opinions regarding the external factors and matters regarding that world cup. I took the games at they come. As much as it seemed impossible that Korea marched that far, they didn't not look like they didn't it at all. Even if they did get some kind of help from the referees, if they didn' convert their chances it wouldn't have mattered anyway. The fact remains that they took their chances as well. Turkey managed to get 3 past them, and even Germany managed to get past them with less chances than Spain had.

:)
Spain actually scored three goals against the Koreans, of which at least two were completely and plainly legitimate. how were they supposed to win if the referee went and disallowed all three of them? By the time they played Turkey, they couldn't progress any further anyway. there was no further opportunity to make money from the team or win votes for that Korean politician who had bought his way into FIFA.

I can't beleive what you're saying with your last point. The last world cup wasn't evidence of anything other than why sport, politics and big business should not be allowed to mix.
 

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Vagabondo said:
Spain actually scored three goals against the Koreans, of which at least two were completely and plainly legitimate. how were they supposed to win if the referee went and disallowed all three of them? By the time they played Turkey, they couldn't progress any further anyway. there was no further opportunity to make money from the team or win votes for that Korean politician who had bought his way into FIFA.

I can't beleive what you're saying with your last point. The last world cup wasn't evidence of anything other than why sport, politics and big business should not be allowed to mix.
Come on man, the reason Spain went out is because there so inept. It was two goals and they were called validly way before the ball went in. Fact is the Koreans (and especially the goalkeeper in the second instance) stopped planning when the referee whistled resulting in the goal. Spain always need a scapegoat on International level and this was the easiest way to find it. Results tell us they are simply overrated by most and not good enough in pressure situations.

I know you didnt mention it but Vieiri missed a chance that was easier to miss against Korea which would have put them through. The referees didnt call that decision before it was shot so it would have counted. As for Fifa, im sure that they would have prefered to see an Italy-Spain quarter to capture the euphoria and if they wanted to put someone through it would have been Japan against Turkey. Less profile game to "fix" if thats your allegation.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Vagabondo said:
Nobody is born knowing anything, least of all football. there are inherited traits which assist a player in learning, but even the best players have to develop their technique and tactical efficiency. If bringing in foreign coaches can assist in this process, then i can't see a problem at all.
My point here is that not that they were born with the ability of playing footie ready, but instead the open-mindedness & the ability to comprehend, in a football sense, what tactics is all about. The awareness of tactics alone will greatly help a player in learning the tactical details of the game, sth which could not be said of most of the Asian football playing personell as of now. Huge strides have been made, esp in Korea & China, but since they are of CHinese origin, and are traditionally hard-working, diligent and generally intelligent due to the previous two factors, the huge progress in their region is sth that I'm not too surprised with.

It is here in the less high-profile regions of Asia that this quality, or the lack of it, is evidently and conveniently exposed. The football here, excluding international levels, lacks a clear tactical approach to games. That is why leagues such as Serie A & La Liga (to a certain extent) receive less coverage and hype due to the fact that the tactical battles during games render a game less action packed, and thus less entertaining. I should stress that in my opinion, all I've said above are on the general public, meaning that there are a significant minority who are not as I described.

Vagabondo said:
No you'll find that big teams just don't care. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it's true. Brazil play teams like Hong Kong mostly for promotional reasons, to make some money for federations and because sponsors like Nike force them to. They provide neither training nor motivation for players who are clearly on a different level. In short, Ronaldo really couldn't care less how many goals he can put through a team like Singapore, end of story.
TO a team like Brazil's pedigree, such situations may have taken place, but I still think that all the Gilardinos and Mavubas and Downings and Quaresmas will take the opportunity against opposition like Japan, Korea as the ideal stepping stone to cement their places in their respective national sides.[/QUOTE]

Vagabondo said:
Spain actually scored three goals against the Koreans, of which at least two were completely and plainly legitimate. how were they supposed to win if the referee went and disallowed all three of them? By the time they played Turkey, they couldn't progress any further anyway. there was no further opportunity to make money from the team or win votes for that Korean politician who had bought his way into FIFA.

I can't beleive what you're saying with your last point. The last world cup wasn't evidence of anything other than why sport, politics and big business should not be allowed to mix.
Japan would've been a more rewarding coup politics-wise if you'd consider it. There's no point in getting Korea up till the semis when japan would've attracted more attention instead. Your theory on how they got pass Spain still does not explain how they got past Portugal, Poland, USA & Italy.
 

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karrmadamaii said:
Japan would've been a more rewarding coup politics-wise if you'd consider it. There's no point in getting Korea up till the semis when japan would've attracted more attention instead. Your theory on how they got pass Spain still does not explain how they got past Portugal, Poland, USA & Italy.
i really don't want to argue this but as far as i know, Japan didn't have as big a hitter at FIFA as what Korea did.The Hyundai chairman (or whoever he was) was putting a lot of money into gaining power within FIFA. What's incredibly dodgy is that at the same time he was bidding for support in his candidacy for som political office in South Korea at the same time. He only stood to benefit from Korea's long run in the tournament, as it was well known that he had so much influence within the world body.

How can you possibly try to argue that there was "no point getting Korea to the semis" or FIFA preferring a italy-spain q/f because of the "euphoria". it's well known that organisers want host nations to progress long into a tournament to maximise interest and revenue (and "euphoria"). why do you think Korea and Japan were even seeded? because of their glorious history in the game :rollani:

In answer to your final question; Portugal, USA and Poland were just in Korea's group, and Koreas was not at all convincing against Portugal when they were outplayed in spite of being two men up or the USA were they only managed a draw by equalising with a penalty.

Don't even mention Italy though. they got past them in much the same way as they got past Spain

:greed: :greed: :greed: :blind: :nono: :yuck:
 

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karrmadamaii said:
TO a team like Brazil's pedigree, such situations may have taken place, but I still think that all the Gilardinos and Mavubas and Downings and Quaresmas will take the opportunity against opposition like Japan, Korea as the ideal stepping stone to cement their places in their respective national sides.
I missed this one earlier :eek:

Look, with all respect to nations such as Korea or Japan and their progress in the game, players like Gilardino really aren't interested in playing friendlies against them. This should be in no way insulting to Asian nations though, as no players from the top countries in Europe are really that interested in playing friendlies against anyone. The games take place mostly for commercial reasons these days, and managers don't take them very seriously. it's definitely not the environment for young players to be tested.

a player like Gilardino is much better off testing himself against the defences of Milan or Juventus than Korea. it's just a fact. besides Parma pay his wages, not Italy, and they don't want him flying for 20 hours and through about 10 time zones to play a meaningless friendly just so that he might get injured. and Gilardino wouldn't want to either.

players are generally focusing on their club careers a lot more these days. Lauren at about 25 quit the Cameroon side and in Europe a lot of players are now leaving their NT's at 30 or even earlier. why would any players be keen on playing pointless friendlies during an already packed calendar when many of their colleagues don't even want to know about playing in major tournaments like the world cup anymore?
 
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