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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
In defence of some flag burners: A RIFF

Re: How do you eat chicken?

washingtone17[/i] [B]How do you folks out there judge people? By your selective memory of their past and your prejudicial view of their future? [/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bastin said:
washingtone17 said:
Yet this act, regardless of whether it is a contradiction of the terms of their citizenship, says little about the culture of 'extremist London Muslims.'
Bastin said:
It says a heck of a lot about their culture. Their religious belief (the centre of their culture) leads to them disrespecting the secular authority that has given them homes. That is unacceptable.
washingtone17[/i] [B]Whatever the Commission for Racial Equality advocates will not stop the folks of the UK eating their chicken their way. [/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bastin said:
Even if the Commission for Racial Equality is the de facto Department for Race Relations?
The burning of flags is an activity not exclusive to 'extremist London Muslims.'

Burning flags has been a symbolic political act for hundreds of years.

Here are some interesting examples I have recently learnt of...:

Activists of the Punjab Pradesh Youth Congress have burnt the Pakistan national flag. Check it out...

In France, the Swiss flag has been hoist down from neighbours homes and burnt. Check that out

In the UK, an individual tore down an EU flag and burnt it. Check this out

Filipinos have burnt the Singapore flag.Check it

The US has a history of flag burning episodes both home and abroad. Check

“Instead of fighting directly against the extremists, we fight in a virtual debate against the appropriation.”
Ivan Sache

So, how does the everyday culture of ‘extremists,’ ‘Londoners’ or ‘Muslims’ manifest itself and how are we able divide this from that and the other?

And even once this onerous task is accomplished, is it then possible to accord, fairly, the precise power and legitimacy (the ‘authority’) these cultures should attain?

The simple point I am making is this:

Just because the powerful are decent does not necessarily mean they are good or better
than the disaffected who may be less than decent but not necessarily bad or worse.

The actions of ‘secular authorities’ are disrespectful to Muslims. The event reported from that park in London is not contained within itself. It resonates, and makes direct reference, to too great a things happening in our world and during these times.

‘Extremists‘, ‘Londoners’ and ‘Muslims‘, as individuals or in groups, have sought emotional, social, cultural, sexual, economic and symbolic kinship across political, national and religious divides in ways we refuse to imagine.

For over a thousand years and significantly longer than the existence of national flags, Muslims, wherever they have been, have pledged their allegiance to their God and purchased homes by their own endeavour in spite of the decency or obstruction of others. This will not change in our time nor in our space(s).

Should we shift the focus of our prayers from our God and to the decent Humans who have given us the space to pray?

If you wanna play the owing game dear buddy you might as well go back to the beginning of time (as we know it) and we’ll then see who owes who what…!

“The plurality of religions reminds individuals that their beliefs are a personal preference, a matter of choice, and no longer part and parcel of the membership of society.” Haralambos and Holborn.

Not even over earnest ‘secular authorities’ can ‘commission’ equality (in its many deceptive guises).

There are areas where Islam resides which are experiencing secularisation; it is not a trend exclusive to the lands of the Christianless.

Only the limits of our imaginations can make us assume that Islam has no members who are secular.

In Iran, India, Syria, amongst ‘Ethnic’ Pakistanis in Britain, ‘Ethnic’ Algerians in France, ‘Ethnic’ Turks in Germany, the Fula ‘minority’ in The Gambia are just some examples of people(s) whose religious identity informs but not wholly shape their identity (even if they still call themselves Muslims).

(Having said that it has been increasingly reported that Islam is the fasting growing religion in the world…)

“The plurality of the Muslim world is not just an irreversible historical fact, but it is a strength for which we must be grateful, and a strength that must be continuously harnessed to the building of the future within the ethics of Islam.”
His Highness the Aga Khan, Imam of the Shia Ismaili Muslims
 

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If I ever catch a tree-f***ing, blackfooted hippie burning the Australian flag I'll knock them out.

Their prerogative to burn the flag, my prerogative to respond as I see fit.
 

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Incidence is not justification.
 

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dyertribe said:
If I ever catch a tree-f***ing, blackfooted hippie burning the Australian flag I'll knock them out.

Their prerogative to burn the flag, my prerogative to respond as I see fit.
I tend to laugh at people who burn flags. I wouldnt go as far as beating someone up for doing it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
The Colour of Feet

Bastin said:
Incidence is not justification.
Flag burning whether we like it or not, whether it is justifible, is a symbolic act which is a sure fire way of arousing attention.

That it was recently performed by 'extremist London Muslims' does not IMHO mean that the act is a direct expression of their 'culture'.

It was a self conscious political expression used by many people(s) all around the world as my post highlights.

Your reaction to flag burner suggestions a certain indifference to the plight of the burners or any concern with the issues the wish to bring to light.

Borba said:
I tend to laugh at people who burn flags. I wouldnt go as far as beating someone up for doing it.
What do people(s) have to do to get you engage with your world?

Burn you?

dyertribe said:
If I ever catch a tree-f***ing, blackfooted hippie burning the Australian flag I'll knock them out.

Their prerogative to burn the flag, my prerogative to respond as I see fit.
I agree that what goes around comes around but in ways we sometimes would not recognise...

Flag burners should not be surprised by the outrage/surport/indifference they arouse, nor its consequences.

I wonder, however, would you want to 'knock out' the black footed Native Australians or the yellow footed 'ethnic' Filipinos (of Australia) if they, regardless of 'justification' decided to burn 'your' beloved flag?
 

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Why do you continually quote that post? The questions that you pose are not in the slightest bit connected. The flag-burning wasn't an expression of their culture, but a result of the touchy-feely approach to integration: a failure to impart respect for the institutions of the country.
 

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Re: The Colour of feet

washingtone17 said:
I wonder, however, would you want to 'knock out' the black footed Native Australians or the yellow footed 'ethnic' Filipinos if they, regardless of 'justification' decided to burn 'your' beloved flag?
What?!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
An Apology

Sorry folks:eek: ,

To avoid any further misunderstandings, I'll insert relevant quotations in 'The Colour of feet'
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Bastin said:
Why do you continually quote that post?
Just trying to generate discussion

Bastin said:
The questions that you pose are not in the slightest bit connected.
Maybe you refuse to see the connections and/or answer the questions...

Bastin said:
The flag-burning wasn't an expression of their culture, but a result of the touchy-feely approach to integration: a failure to impart respect for the institutions of the country.
Bastin said:
It says a heck of a lot about their culture. Their religious belief (the centre of their culture) leads to them disrespecting the secular authority that has given them homes. That is unacceptable.
both quotes are from you which one do you hold to be true?

====

Okinawan proverb: Chu uyamee ru duu uyamee
Akan proverb: Honam mu nni nhanoa.
 

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Re: An Apology

washingtone17 said:
Sorry folks:eek: ,

To avoid any further misunderstandings, I'll insert relevant quotations in 'The Colour of feet'
The term I used, "blackfooted", has absolutely nothing to do with race - it is a colloquial term for barefooted hippies, and thus the owners of dirty black feet.
 

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Re: Re: An Apology

dyertribe said:
The term I used, "blackfooted", has absolutely nothing to do with race - it is a colloquial term for barefooted hippies, and thus the owners of dirty black feet.
Shame on you, K. How dare you expect to have the uneducated understand a phrase like such.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...
 

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Re: Re: Re: An Apology

Loco said:
Shame on you, K. How dare you expect to have the uneducated understand a phrase like such.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...
My bad :depress:
 

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Re: The Colour of Feet

washingtone17 said:
What do people(s) have to do to get you engage with your world?

Burn you?
What do you mean? I hardly think burning a bit of cloth is equivalent to someone attempting to burn me.
 

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I couldn't care less if someone burns an Austrian flag right next to me.
It's not really a lack of patriotism, but blind patriotism is one of the most stupid (and most common) reason for needless conflicts and violence, so no thanks.
 

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washingtone17 said:
both quotes are from you which one do you hold to be true?
The burning of flags is not their culture. Disrespect for the secular (or pluralist, in the case of the UK) authorities is their culture. I think that you'll find that all religious persons feel as such to some extent. However, in the case of Islam, it is assumed that attempts to curb such behaviour, such as the raid on the Finsbury Park Mosque, will be interpreted as racism against Arabs (the absurdity of which is unquestioned in this forum, I assume).
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: Re: An Apology

dyertribe said:
The term I used, "blackfooted", has absolutely nothing to do with race - it is a colloquial term for barefooted hippies, and thus the owners of dirty black feet.
Loco said:
Shame on you, K. How dare you expect to have the uneducated understand a phrase like such.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...
Pretending to be stupid

Pretending to be stupid is a very old comedy device. The Greeks called it eiron, and irony comes from the same word. The Socratic method in philosophy also depends on it.
The idea is to unsettle the assumptions of your dialogue partner by questioning or simply not sharing his basic assumptions. This unsettling can be satiric (to show up the other person as stupid) or dialectic (by denying the assumption to find new truths).

For example, in Ali G's sketch DANGEROUS, Ali, pretending to be a stupid street kid, interviews a Professor from the National Poison Information Centre about drugs. Ali's pretended stupidity ("Does Class A drugs absolutely guarantee that they is better quality?") elicits a response that makes drugs look like any other consumer article.
 

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Bastin said:
The burning of flags is not their culture. Disrespect for the secular (or pluralist, in the case of the UK) authorities is their culture. I think that you'll find that all religious persons feel as such to some extent. However, in the case of Islam, it is assumed that attempts to curb such behaviour, such as the raid on the Finsbury Park Mosque, will be interpreted as racism against Arabs (the absurdity of which is unquestioned in this forum, I assume).
whether or not disrespecting secular authorities is a part of 'their' culture is subject to debate, youre going to have to ask people of this culture to gain a better understanding.. but i hope your not associating said culture with islam (2 different things). the prophet Muhammed is very clear on this issue, and claims that if muslims reside in foreign land, they must show respect for the laws of the land.

on the scale of things, burning flags is a very trivial matter. its just a form of expression, and many muslims (as well as many other previously stated examples) burn flags here in the uk because GB tend to blindly support the USA in wars against the muslims, especially as the general population of the UK were/are against such wars.

burning flags (of any authority, not just national)/effergeys etc has become quite routine in todays ever increasingly frequent protests/demos/marches...if anything, its become more of a fad.. this matter shouldnt be given much attenton.
 

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Re: Re: Re: An Apology

washingtone17 said:
Pretending to be stupid
How I could've used this (lame) excuse at certain times during my life... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
READ AGAIN

The idea is to unsettle the assumptions of your dialogue partner by questioning or simply not sharing his basic assumptions. This unsettling can be satiric (to show up the other person as stupid) or dialectic (by denying the assumption to find new truths).
 
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