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Discussion Starter #1
A few of you may remember me as I used to post in this website a loooong time ago. I'm as Brasilian as anyone you've met, there's nothing better than seeing the national team doing well and the sport flourish inside our borders.

But Brasilian football today is CRAP!

I don't mean the national team, or the generation; quite the contrary actually, there's tons of talent, mostly in Europe. But the game within Brasil has become so weak, so amateur, so boring, that I'm beggining to wonder how in the world we're so successful. I'm disgusted by some of the things I see, players are dirtier today then they have ever been. The game is stopped by fouls just about every minute, not only because of the lack of professionalism of the players, but also because of horrible refereeing. The amount of calls against Santos this year (yes I am a fan!) was beyond belief, there were 11 legal goals disallowed!!! 11!!!! The last one, against Paysandu, literally cost the team the championship, as a converted penalty was called back BECAUSE AN OPPOSING PLAYER INVADED THE BOX! I personally have only watched no more than 20 games this season, but I can't even imagine the amount of bad calls around the league.

Then there's the off-field politics, they've got to be at an ultimate all-time low. What they're doing with Sao Caetano today is pathetic, picking on the defensiveless club that had no fault on the tragedy (or do you really think Sao Caetano forced a player to play who they knew was in danger of dying?) Suspending Santos for 6 home games because a fan hit the referee with an ice cube is also ridiculous, typical action coming from the STJD. Ice is sold inside the stadium, its not a lack of security. Vasco was responsible for the near death of dozens of spectators in the final not too long ago when a portion of their stadium almost collapsed from overcrowding. What happened to them???? Nothing!!! And their isn't political interest in the STJD?

Great teams of the past like Botafogo, Atletico MG, Flamengo, Gremio, etc... are so bad to watch that it hurts, I honestly think some of these teams wouldn't even compete in a Mexican league. The most competitive teams today, (Atletico PR, Santos, Sao Paulo, Sao Caetano) would not even remotely compete in any of the better leagues in the world, they'd be middle of the table teams, at best. The level of the sport itself is hurting from everything else that is bad combined.

I have friends who are not brasilian and I'm embarassed when they read anything out of Brasil. Pride aside, I often find myself today ashamed to be a Brasilian.
 

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(1) I agree on the quality of refereeing, it is very low and that is the biggest challenge for Brazilian soccer.

(2) I disagree on the quality of teams. First, there are 24 teams in the league. Second, if Gremio is ridiculous, that is their fault, the 24th best team in most countries will be ridiculous. I believe the 5 top teams have good quality, none of them would be embarassing at the Champions League at the current round.

(3) As far as off-field politics go, they are not worse than they have always been, perhaps they are slightly better than what it used to be - at least Gremio is not even trying to escape relegation through dirty tricks... THat is an EVOLUTION in the Brazilian context
 

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mg1010 said:
What they're doing with Sao Caetano today is pathetic, picking on the defensiveless club that had no fault on the tragedy (or do you really think Sao Caetano forced a player to play who they knew was in danger of dying?)
São Caetano wasn't punished for "forcing" Serginho to do anything. They were deservedly punished because when the player was registered they ommitted the documents that revealed his illness, which might have led to the registration being denied. In a nutshell, São Caetano is being punished for committing fraud in the registration.

mg1010 said:
Suspending Santos for 6 home games because a fan hit the referee with an ice cube is also ridiculous, typical action coming from the STJD. Ice is sold inside the stadium, its not a lack of security. Vasco was responsible for the near death of dozens of spectators in the final not too long ago when a portion of their stadium almost collapsed from overcrowding. What happened to them???? Nothing!!! And their isn't political interest in the STJD?
IIRC Vasco's stadium was banned for lack of security after that accident, and they couldn't play there for a while.

And this year Botafogo lost the right to play in our stadium for a couple of games too, because a fan threw an empty plastic water bottle at the linesman – far less dangerous than an ice cube. This year, a LOT of teams had their fields banned because of objects that were thrown by fans... maybe an excess, but hardly a double standard.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
(3) As far as off-field politics go, they are not worse than they have always been, perhaps they are slightly better than what it used to be - at least Gremio is not even trying to escape relegation through dirty tricks... THat is an EVOLUTION in the Brazilian context
Perhaps it is an evolution, but then again, Gremio never had any influence on CBF, they were relegated in the early nineties, played a year in division 2, and came back before the Fluminense fiasco.


(2) I disagree on the quality of teams. First, there are 24 teams in the league. Second, if Gremio is ridiculous, that is their fault, the 24th best team in most countries will be ridiculous. I believe the 5 top teams have good quality, none of them would be embarassing at the Champions League at the current round.
Maybe it was wrong of me to say poor quality, because I do agree that the top teams on a good day can be good and entertaining. But then again, as you put it, they wouldn't embarass themselves in a Champions League, but they wouldnt contend for it either, maybe be along Olympiacos or Kiev, which seems fair considering the financial level of the teams. But what I do think is that more than half of the teams are bad, which makes for an uninteresting league, especially for outsiders. When I watch Arsenal play Fulham the level of the game is still good, very good as a matter of fact. When I watch Palmeiras play Parana, the level is very low.

IIRC Vasco's stadium was banned for lack of security after that accident, and they couldn't play there for a while.
I may be mistaken, but it wasn't even 6 games. And they were allowed to play the very final in Maracana, a few miles from their stadiums, rather than the 200 Km radius the STJD put on Santos outlawing all 6 games to be played even in Sao Paulo. And I don't see any difference in throwing ONE ice cube (not a hail storm) or a water bottle, both of which are bought in the same concession stand thrown by the same drunk idiot. A 2 and a 6 game suspension is a drastic difference. Had it not been in the final stretch of the league, by a different club, I doubt they would receive a 6 game suspension. I don't think its a coincidence in Leao's continuous complaints and Luxemburgo's current complaints.
 

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mg1010 said:
Perhaps it is an evolution, but then again, Gremio never had any influence on CBF, they were relegated in the early nineties, played a year in division 2, and came back before the Fluminense fiasco.

Not really, GREMIO returned through to the top division through a change in the rules. IIRC they finished eighth in the second division, and CBF increased the number of promoted teams from 2 to 8 to make room for Gremio.
 

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mg1010 said:
When I watch Arsenal play Fulham the level of the game is still good, very good as a matter of fact. When I watch Palmeiras play Parana, the level is very low.
Have you watched Parana play?

Probably not, or you watched them pre-Paulo Campos - they are a very cohesive and entertaining team to watch. Both of their creative players Cristian and Marcel are among the best in the league and next year will be playing for the likes of Sao Paulo and Palmeiras.

Perhaps that was a poor example of yours. There are poor teams in the league (e.g. Flamengo is horrible), which is not surprising with 24 teams, but Parana is not one.
 

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mg1010 said:
When I watch Arsenal play Fulham the level of the game is still good, very good as a matter of fact. When I watch Palmeiras play Parana, the level is very low.
Santos is the equivalent of Arsenal in Brazil (high scoring technical team, loaded with talent), and all games with Santos I watched this year (about 7-8) were good to watch.
 

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I agree with Bordon, there is nothing new in the sun. If anything the turn/return is not allowing 8th place teams to won the competition due referees's mistakes.

As for the referee in Belem, Wilson de Souza ? Now ? in 1995 and 1997 he screwed Atletico in two games against Palmeiras that costed us a lot. He have been always shameful and will always be.
 

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Both of their creative players Cristian and Marcel are among the best in the league and next year will be playing for the likes of Sao Paulo and Palmeiras.
Can U tell me somemore about these players? For example their age?
 

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Bordon is gone! said:
Not really, GREMIO returned through to the top division through a change in the rules. IIRC they finished eighth in the second division, and CBF increased the number of promoted teams from 2 to 8 to make room for Gremio.
you are absolutely correct, I remember this very well.
 

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Well, the most important thing is the best team will win the league. That is ATLETICO PR. :happy:

Now hopefully this time, they will play better in the libertadores. :fero:
 
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