If only Macca had stayed...
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G
Guest
·It's useless talking about such things now. He's gone and he's gone. Liverpool can't be forever building a team around McManaman and still winning nowt.
A team with such a system plays well in cup ties, but will never quite cut it when it comes to a prolonged campaign like the Premiership. Real Madrid won the Champions' League with him, yes, but during the run-in he wasn't even playing due to poor form or injury. Their success is not based on McManaman alone, but due to a team of good players who can go through a long competition, covering for each other when the need arises. It's a team with quality in every department, though they can still be inconsistent at times.
Even if McManaman stays at Liverpool, we will not win the title if the team have only a few great players. We need a squad of at least 20 good players to see us through.
As for Smicer, enough is said about him. He's the most disappointing signing of last season - at least we didn't expect anything from Meijer.
A team with such a system plays well in cup ties, but will never quite cut it when it comes to a prolonged campaign like the Premiership. Real Madrid won the Champions' League with him, yes, but during the run-in he wasn't even playing due to poor form or injury. Their success is not based on McManaman alone, but due to a team of good players who can go through a long competition, covering for each other when the need arises. It's a team with quality in every department, though they can still be inconsistent at times.
Even if McManaman stays at Liverpool, we will not win the title if the team have only a few great players. We need a squad of at least 20 good players to see us through.
As for Smicer, enough is said about him. He's the most disappointing signing of last season - at least we didn't expect anything from Meijer.
I don't think this discussion is irrelevant. Although Macca is not going to be back now, I think Liverpool performance without him clearly shows what type of player Liverpool needs - a creative playmaker.
I did not see anybody saying 'with Macca alone'. With Macca Liverpool played a great passing game with excellent creative offense. Defense was horrible, that is why they did not win anything.
I think Bulldog meant that now when team is much more balanced Macca would make this team outstanding. But there are not too many maccas, zidanes or figos around. I hope that Liverpool will find some type of replacement better than Smicer.
Keagan though still has Macca and he would be very stupid not to build team around him. There has been no other playmaker of the same caliber in England since Gazza left.
I did not see anybody saying 'with Macca alone'. With Macca Liverpool played a great passing game with excellent creative offense. Defense was horrible, that is why they did not win anything.
I think Bulldog meant that now when team is much more balanced Macca would make this team outstanding. But there are not too many maccas, zidanes or figos around. I hope that Liverpool will find some type of replacement better than Smicer.
Keagan though still has Macca and he would be very stupid not to build team around him. There has been no other playmaker of the same caliber in England since Gazza left.
Why did everyone think Deisler is good? I personally think he's crap. His crossing is poor and he runs into blind alleys, he has poor control and was he involved in any German goals in Euro 2000? Oh no, they scored only one goal didn't they?
I agree with Sean regarding having world class players in every department. I think we should give Smicer one more chance though and if he fails, then R De Boer sounds a good investment.
Anyway the traditional idea of a fixed formation of 4-4-2, 3-5-2, whatever should long be abolished. Look at teams like Portugal and France, they played a loosely defined system but their players cover each other and they seems to be everywhere. We need versatile players. If we can get Figo then I'll spend $3,500, fly to Anfield and kiss GH.
PS: On the subject on Germany, I hope it once and for all show us how crap our Hamann is. He got into the top 50 players list? How did they calculate the points? I fear the worst for Babbel and maybe even Ziege as they all looked over the hill in the tournament - I hope they still have something is them in club football.
I agree with Sean regarding having world class players in every department. I think we should give Smicer one more chance though and if he fails, then R De Boer sounds a good investment.
Anyway the traditional idea of a fixed formation of 4-4-2, 3-5-2, whatever should long be abolished. Look at teams like Portugal and France, they played a loosely defined system but their players cover each other and they seems to be everywhere. We need versatile players. If we can get Figo then I'll spend $3,500, fly to Anfield and kiss GH.
PS: On the subject on Germany, I hope it once and for all show us how crap our Hamann is. He got into the top 50 players list? How did they calculate the points? I fear the worst for Babbel and maybe even Ziege as they all looked over the hill in the tournament - I hope they still have something is them in club football.
Ok, problems with Smicer:
1. As a winger, drifts into the middle too much - never mind if he drifts in and score, he only got one miserable goal last season.
2. Poor quality of crossing.
3. Indecisiveness when attacking, often caught taking too long to release the ball and therefore losing possession eventually.
4. Gets injured too much, even when not playing. Shows clearly he can't last the pace of the league - surely you don't need an entire season to settle down?
Regards.
1. As a winger, drifts into the middle too much - never mind if he drifts in and score, he only got one miserable goal last season.
2. Poor quality of crossing.
3. Indecisiveness when attacking, often caught taking too long to release the ball and therefore losing possession eventually.
4. Gets injured too much, even when not playing. Shows clearly he can't last the pace of the league - surely you don't need an entire season to settle down?
Regards.
G
Guest
·Poor crossing from Smicer should be mentoined again, he was awful at Euro 2000, especially against France.
Just because he scored 2 goals against a weak Danish side doesn't mean he suddenly is such a great player.
Just because he scored 2 goals against a weak Danish side doesn't mean he suddenly is such a great player.
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3,245 Posts
M, are you serious? "Wasn't that good?" Macca wasn't that good? Of course he was! He still is! Just look at how bright his star is shining at Real Madrid now, of how he becomes such an important player in the club. He doesn't become that good in an instant, you know.
I agree with you in one thing, though. That we should all stop forget about Macca and and start building a new team that's stronger without him.
Oh, and one more thing : Deisler is allright.
I agree with you in one thing, though. That we should all stop forget about Macca and and start building a new team that's stronger without him.
Oh, and one more thing : Deisler is allright.
I mean for Liverpool - I could be wrong but I'm entitled to my opinion. I saw him on countless occassions and can honestly say that for 80% of the time he was running across the pitch doing feck all. Now and then he did something that grabbed the headlines. The way you are talking you'd think he was another John Barnes. He was pretty good now and then, thats all- we are far better off without him.
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"M", I agree that Liverpool are more of a team now, but IMO this have nothing to do with Macca not playing for the team. I don't know to which period you refer when you saying:"for 80% of the time he was running across the pitch doing feck all", but in '95,'96 and '97 Liverpool were the most entertaining team to watch. Even my brazilian and argentinian friends who did not care much about European soccer before, especially about EPL, even they would wake up at 6am on Satardays to go and watch Liverpool every time their game was shown live in British pubs.
Liverpool played with 3 at the middle(Macca, Barnes, Redknapp) and with Fowler+Collymore upfront. Man, what a joy that team was to watch. This current team pales in comparison big time! And one other thing I'd like to point out to is that during that period Liverpool were always fighting for the Premiership crown, they narrowly lost the FA Cup final and were squeezed out of Cup Winners Cup final due to mistakenly disallowed McManaman's goal against PSG in 1/2. So, they kept losing by the narrowest of margins both domesticly and in Europe. While these days GH keeps mentioning that it will take 3-5 years before the team will be able to compete with the likes of Arsenal, ManU and Chelsea. Chelsea!!! Ironically that only a year or two before that I saw Liverpool tearing Chelsea apart 5:1 or 6:1 at Anfield.
But before making Macca the main culprit for not winning anything(besides '95 League Cup that was singlhandedly won by Macca) I would bear in mind that Liverpool had Kvarme, Babb and Bjorneby in defence+calamity James in goals!!! That was a little bit too much, even for such a brilliant offence that could not alwayse compensate for the horrible defence.
I can not understand why people do not see such obvious things as this. It took 15 min. of playing a decent football in a friendly for Barmby and he's an instant hero, in cotrast Macca despite a decade of playing brilliant football is still renown as inconsistent and unreliable.
Perhaps that's the reason behind England's poor performances, I mean inability to see the REAL gem and treasure it instead of blaming it for the sins of others, while mediocrity can get praised absolutely for nothing.
Next time you see this plyer watch what he can do for the REAL team. See if anybody in England is even half as good.
Liverpool played with 3 at the middle(Macca, Barnes, Redknapp) and with Fowler+Collymore upfront. Man, what a joy that team was to watch. This current team pales in comparison big time! And one other thing I'd like to point out to is that during that period Liverpool were always fighting for the Premiership crown, they narrowly lost the FA Cup final and were squeezed out of Cup Winners Cup final due to mistakenly disallowed McManaman's goal against PSG in 1/2. So, they kept losing by the narrowest of margins both domesticly and in Europe. While these days GH keeps mentioning that it will take 3-5 years before the team will be able to compete with the likes of Arsenal, ManU and Chelsea. Chelsea!!! Ironically that only a year or two before that I saw Liverpool tearing Chelsea apart 5:1 or 6:1 at Anfield.
But before making Macca the main culprit for not winning anything(besides '95 League Cup that was singlhandedly won by Macca) I would bear in mind that Liverpool had Kvarme, Babb and Bjorneby in defence+calamity James in goals!!! That was a little bit too much, even for such a brilliant offence that could not alwayse compensate for the horrible defence.
I can not understand why people do not see such obvious things as this. It took 15 min. of playing a decent football in a friendly for Barmby and he's an instant hero, in cotrast Macca despite a decade of playing brilliant football is still renown as inconsistent and unreliable.
Perhaps that's the reason behind England's poor performances, I mean inability to see the REAL gem and treasure it instead of blaming it for the sins of others, while mediocrity can get praised absolutely for nothing.
Next time you see this plyer watch what he can do for the REAL team. See if anybody in England is even half as good.
For a while I could not understand what is wrong with Englishmen. Ever since Beatles and other great artists had to leave the homeland for recognition I kept asking myself that question. Every time I see any somewhat talented player being cherished and idolized everywhere else in the world, you guys always find something to criticize your most talented people for.
That is why your players never have confidence to perform. They know that any wrong move and they will be eaten alive by their own media and fans. Their own countrymen never appreciate them. The rest of the world thinks that if their own fans don’t believe they are the best in the world, then they are not good at all. That is why most of the football fans don’t even know who Gazza is, or most other of your great players.
Fiorentina puts monument to Batistuta without winning anything; Raul will be Real’s hero despite the fact that he is inconsistent and can miss the crucial penalty kick - the still think that he is the best. But people like ‘M’ could say that Macca is not that good and Liverpool is better off without him, after several years of brilliant and very consistent display. I am very glad is in Madrid now. He said once that when you see how much confidence players around you have, you play much better.
Confidence is as important for becoming a star player as talent and skills, and it builds up not only by feedback form your fellow players, but also by fans and media. So with the fans and media England has right now they are never going to have their own stars and will never win anything. (I know there are many fans who are different, but it is those like ‘M’ who are loud and heard).
That is why your players never have confidence to perform. They know that any wrong move and they will be eaten alive by their own media and fans. Their own countrymen never appreciate them. The rest of the world thinks that if their own fans don’t believe they are the best in the world, then they are not good at all. That is why most of the football fans don’t even know who Gazza is, or most other of your great players.
Fiorentina puts monument to Batistuta without winning anything; Raul will be Real’s hero despite the fact that he is inconsistent and can miss the crucial penalty kick - the still think that he is the best. But people like ‘M’ could say that Macca is not that good and Liverpool is better off without him, after several years of brilliant and very consistent display. I am very glad is in Madrid now. He said once that when you see how much confidence players around you have, you play much better.
Confidence is as important for becoming a star player as talent and skills, and it builds up not only by feedback form your fellow players, but also by fans and media. So with the fans and media England has right now they are never going to have their own stars and will never win anything. (I know there are many fans who are different, but it is those like ‘M’ who are loud and heard).
You've misunderstood me.
I think Macca is a very good player for Real Madrid. For Liverpool he was also a very good player and yes Liverpool were and are a very entertaining team to watch.
However that is my point, we were and are a team with each player being (most of the time) an excellent player. To single Macca out as being head and shoulders above the rest and to even think that he could revolutionise LFC is totally missing the point of what we are. You must have noticed by now that are return to form is because we work as a team and that is what Houllier is building. We do not need a Macca to divert our aim into building a team around him. Zidane is a perfect example, the man is pure genius, but what makes him quite simply the best is that he knows the value of team work and for him it is the team that comes first. The same was also true for Barnes, great individual skill, but he was a team player. Macca I feel does not have this element to his game although admittedly it is gradually becoming evident thank god.
Another thing I don't like about his game is that if he is losing his head drops. He doesn't have the personality to fight for a game - if his little quirks don't work he's f****d. This is beginning to be changed at Liverpool now - if we are losing we start to fight back, we don't give up which was a hallmark of the great Liverpool teams and unfortunately is true of Man U at the present moment. They fight until the referee blows his whistle - how many times do they score in the last minutes of each half? How many times did Ian Rush get Liverpool the points in the last five minutes? How many times did you hear somebody say "****e - we've [email protected] them off now" if they had the tenacity to score first against us?
What I'm trying to say is that we are a team. I don't think Maccas game fits into that way of thinking and whilst he is a very good player there is no longer a need for him at LFC.
The team comes first, any player who doesn't like that can f**k off.
I think Macca is a very good player for Real Madrid. For Liverpool he was also a very good player and yes Liverpool were and are a very entertaining team to watch.
However that is my point, we were and are a team with each player being (most of the time) an excellent player. To single Macca out as being head and shoulders above the rest and to even think that he could revolutionise LFC is totally missing the point of what we are. You must have noticed by now that are return to form is because we work as a team and that is what Houllier is building. We do not need a Macca to divert our aim into building a team around him. Zidane is a perfect example, the man is pure genius, but what makes him quite simply the best is that he knows the value of team work and for him it is the team that comes first. The same was also true for Barnes, great individual skill, but he was a team player. Macca I feel does not have this element to his game although admittedly it is gradually becoming evident thank god.
Another thing I don't like about his game is that if he is losing his head drops. He doesn't have the personality to fight for a game - if his little quirks don't work he's f****d. This is beginning to be changed at Liverpool now - if we are losing we start to fight back, we don't give up which was a hallmark of the great Liverpool teams and unfortunately is true of Man U at the present moment. They fight until the referee blows his whistle - how many times do they score in the last minutes of each half? How many times did Ian Rush get Liverpool the points in the last five minutes? How many times did you hear somebody say "****e - we've [email protected] them off now" if they had the tenacity to score first against us?
What I'm trying to say is that we are a team. I don't think Maccas game fits into that way of thinking and whilst he is a very good player there is no longer a need for him at LFC.
The team comes first, any player who doesn't like that can f**k off.
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M, I realize Macca is not your favorite player. It's ok, I know people who don't like even Maradona. But I'd like to make a few comments to your remarks and ask a couple of questions.
1. Do you sincerely believe that with having James, Babb, Kvarme, Bjorneby this current Pool team would play better than the one in mid-90s?
2. You said that when Macca is losing his head would drop. Wouldn't your head drop if you giving your best week in week out but your team still ends up on the losing side only because there are couple of morons who do not know how to do their job in defence?
3. And why you always pointing to Steve? There were plenty of games when Fowler, Berger, Redknapp, Thomas, Barnes were anonymous. That's normal! That happens to everybody! But people like yourself always point to one person. And Macca has guts too! Or you forgot who ran across the entire field to score the 90th min. equaliser when your team were losing to Celtic in 97 , or the stunner at Highbury... I can go on and on.
4. What's your point anyway? You prefer to see thompson or Murphy, or Hamann rather than Steve? That's ridiculous! Those are very average players at best. Macca can be the best player in the best team in Europe. Or you prefer to see Wise playing next to Ince and Batty? True, their heads never drop, but what's use of that? For me it was Ince the Bull, who came and ruined beautiful fluidity of the Pool's game with intricate passing and diverse skills. I've seen none of that last year, and I know there is nobody to provide that now.
In the end I want to say a few things about England and France. Only 4 years ago England were a better team. Today, from any perspective, France are the best in the world, while England are playing 19th century soccer. How did this happen? The answer is very simple:
Gazza and Macca were England's best players, had excellent Euro-96 and both were dumped by Hoddle, who prefered to have bulldogs on the field rather than skillful players. In contrast to that, Zidane had a crappy tournament in '96, in some games you could see "his head dropped", but their coach knew that the key to success is not to drop Zidane, but to make ZZ work for the team, to make him a better team player. Of course ZZ is not the only + France have. In the semis against Portugal they also played 3 bulldogs(Petit, Vieira, Deschamps), but the bulldogs were there only to guard their master, bulldogs are useless if there is no master to make things work. And besides, compared to their English vis-a-vis the French bulldogs look like Rivaldos.
It's amazing to see that the most critisized and ridiculed people in England are: Gasciogne, McManaman, Fowler and Beckham. Is it a coincidence that those are your countries best? Maybe people on Albion don't know what a good player is about? But then how would you explain that the most glamorous figure there is Cantona. MU fans even voted for him as the best ever. No, I'm sure not because he was a flop in every single CL game he played and couldn't score a sitter when it mattered, but because he was... a FOREIGNER.
Untill people in your country keep slagging off your best players, and your coaches keep dumping them, your football will remain in decline. The more you desagree, the longer you'd suffer the consequences.
1. Do you sincerely believe that with having James, Babb, Kvarme, Bjorneby this current Pool team would play better than the one in mid-90s?
2. You said that when Macca is losing his head would drop. Wouldn't your head drop if you giving your best week in week out but your team still ends up on the losing side only because there are couple of morons who do not know how to do their job in defence?
3. And why you always pointing to Steve? There were plenty of games when Fowler, Berger, Redknapp, Thomas, Barnes were anonymous. That's normal! That happens to everybody! But people like yourself always point to one person. And Macca has guts too! Or you forgot who ran across the entire field to score the 90th min. equaliser when your team were losing to Celtic in 97 , or the stunner at Highbury... I can go on and on.
4. What's your point anyway? You prefer to see thompson or Murphy, or Hamann rather than Steve? That's ridiculous! Those are very average players at best. Macca can be the best player in the best team in Europe. Or you prefer to see Wise playing next to Ince and Batty? True, their heads never drop, but what's use of that? For me it was Ince the Bull, who came and ruined beautiful fluidity of the Pool's game with intricate passing and diverse skills. I've seen none of that last year, and I know there is nobody to provide that now.
In the end I want to say a few things about England and France. Only 4 years ago England were a better team. Today, from any perspective, France are the best in the world, while England are playing 19th century soccer. How did this happen? The answer is very simple:
Gazza and Macca were England's best players, had excellent Euro-96 and both were dumped by Hoddle, who prefered to have bulldogs on the field rather than skillful players. In contrast to that, Zidane had a crappy tournament in '96, in some games you could see "his head dropped", but their coach knew that the key to success is not to drop Zidane, but to make ZZ work for the team, to make him a better team player. Of course ZZ is not the only + France have. In the semis against Portugal they also played 3 bulldogs(Petit, Vieira, Deschamps), but the bulldogs were there only to guard their master, bulldogs are useless if there is no master to make things work. And besides, compared to their English vis-a-vis the French bulldogs look like Rivaldos.
It's amazing to see that the most critisized and ridiculed people in England are: Gasciogne, McManaman, Fowler and Beckham. Is it a coincidence that those are your countries best? Maybe people on Albion don't know what a good player is about? But then how would you explain that the most glamorous figure there is Cantona. MU fans even voted for him as the best ever. No, I'm sure not because he was a flop in every single CL game he played and couldn't score a sitter when it mattered, but because he was... a FOREIGNER.
Untill people in your country keep slagging off your best players, and your coaches keep dumping them, your football will remain in decline. The more you desagree, the longer you'd suffer the consequences.
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4,932 Posts
Christ there is a Macca topic and as yet me or Razor have not replied......what is happening 
I think that most people know my views on Macca and he is without doubt my favourate player of all time. I grew up watching the guy but it was only when I went to Anfield that I realised how good he was. He controlled the team and was running all game. His passing is under-rated as is his strength. He keeps the ball away from the defenders and I don't think that he will be replced.
I think that most people know my views on Macca and he is without doubt my favourate player of all time. I grew up watching the guy but it was only when I went to Anfield that I realised how good he was. He controlled the team and was running all game. His passing is under-rated as is his strength. He keeps the ball away from the defenders and I don't think that he will be replced.
I still think you misunderstand me.
I'm not slagging off Macca or saying that he is a crap player. I think he is very good. You say he is not my favourite player, well that is true, but it isn't true to say I dislike him.
However I don't rate him as a god.
In response to your questions.
1: My grandmother would look good against those players you listed. Yes Macca is better than those. It is hardly a fair comparison.
2: You agree then that his head drops.
3: I'm arguing against steve because that is the topic.
Please try to go on and on - You can't can you.
4: My point certainly isn't that I'd prefer to see Murphy. And indeed my point isn't that I'd like to see any player in particular. My posts have simply been in reply to other posts elevating Macca to an undeserved status.
I think on the whole you have to realise people may have a different opinion to you. This is allowed. I think Macca is currently playing well for Madrid, much better in fact than he ever did at Liverpool. However I wouldn't want him back because I don't think he fits into the Liverpool team. Now this argument could go on and on which is pointless - I guess we are not going to agree. Actually I can see a parallel to John Barnes in this. He was a fantastic player for Liverpool, but not so great for England. I can mention his cross for Linaker against Argentina or his run through the Brazilians - moments of inspiration, but on the whole didn't quite prove himself for England. For me this is true of Macca at LFC - moments of inspiration, good all round player, but you always had the feeling he could play better and you always had the feeling he was not putting the team first.
I'm not slagging off Macca or saying that he is a crap player. I think he is very good. You say he is not my favourite player, well that is true, but it isn't true to say I dislike him.
However I don't rate him as a god.
In response to your questions.
1: My grandmother would look good against those players you listed. Yes Macca is better than those. It is hardly a fair comparison.
2: You agree then that his head drops.
3: I'm arguing against steve because that is the topic.
Please try to go on and on - You can't can you.
4: My point certainly isn't that I'd prefer to see Murphy. And indeed my point isn't that I'd like to see any player in particular. My posts have simply been in reply to other posts elevating Macca to an undeserved status.
I think on the whole you have to realise people may have a different opinion to you. This is allowed. I think Macca is currently playing well for Madrid, much better in fact than he ever did at Liverpool. However I wouldn't want him back because I don't think he fits into the Liverpool team. Now this argument could go on and on which is pointless - I guess we are not going to agree. Actually I can see a parallel to John Barnes in this. He was a fantastic player for Liverpool, but not so great for England. I can mention his cross for Linaker against Argentina or his run through the Brazilians - moments of inspiration, but on the whole didn't quite prove himself for England. For me this is true of Macca at LFC - moments of inspiration, good all round player, but you always had the feeling he could play better and you always had the feeling he was not putting the team first.
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