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Discussion Starter #1
I just read Alf Ramsey's quote after England defeated Argentina in WC '66:

"We don't swap shirts with animals!".

Don't you find this outrageous?
I certainly do. Anyway, the guy is gone.

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Argentina and England have always been enemies both on and off the field it seems. I never watched that game personally, but Argentina supposedly played very dirty. Their captain Rattin was sent off, but refused to accept it. It took him 10 mins to leave the field. Argentina pushed the limits in terms of fair play during those years. Not only in 1966.

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Discussion Starter #3
I did not watch the Eng-Arg game but I know that the referee sent Rattin off without a cause reason. The ref (from Germany) called something and Rattin asked him what did he mean with that call. He was the captain and had the right to do so. The referee thought Rattin was insulting him and had him sent off. It took 11 minutes for a furious Rattin to leave the field. At the end, Gatti and Pastoriza (two of Argentina's subs) added insult to injury by pushing the referee (just as Paolo DiCanio did recently).

However, I do not quite agree with the comment that Argentina played dirty in the 60's. You apparently forgot Celtic's playing style against Racing. Everybody went dirty when something big was at stake. It was not only the Aregentines. Did you forget the sort of treatment that Pele got in the 66 World Cup?

What I am definitely against is that nobody can call anybody an animal, specially if you are to become later a knight of the British Empire, as did Ramsey. The Argentina-Uruguay rivalry is greater than that between England and Argentina and I am not aware of any Uruguayan offense like this. What I think is that the redneck side of Ramsey surfaced with that comment.

By the way, thanks for your reply. I have just become a regular surfer in your excellent website.

Cheers,

Carlos "Footballenson" Ospina
Colombia/Canada
 

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Carlos,
Argentina have always played dirty, only now that htey are stopping a bit..but that happened after Menotti took over in the late 70's. And they still won two world cups cheating (cause they will never win on the ball!).
And all the argentinians done in that game was spit, punch etc...and Rattin is an animal.
Anyway after that game, a FIFA official while stopping in a light in a london street, invented the red and yellow cards. At least one thing Rattin contributed for the game!!



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Discussion Starter #5
The word is simplicity; or the in the case of Ze da Fiel: simpleton. Your argument merits no response because it lacks objectivity, simplicity. Your about as sublte as a barium enema. The problem with discussing soccer, politics, religion, or anything close to the heart is that people know not where to separate passion from fanaticism. Ze is certainly entitled to his wayward opinions. This is not in question. The question is whether he's trying to shed light or ignite a few crosses. The idea is so simple it is blinding: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Next thing he's goint to tell us is that Pele was the greatest soccer player that ever lived.
 

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Tango don´t pay attention to Ze Da Fiel, he´s still hurtin´about the 3-0 UNFORGETTABLE DEFEAT France gave to Brazil in WC 98, Cheating?, no one has won a world cup, like Diego did in 86, you see Pele was always sorrounded with great stars it´s very esay to shine like that, after all Brazil didn´t need himin 62 to win the WC.

Know your facts Ze Da Fiel.

After all we all know Albiceleste has been cheated on in thwe 90 WC final, and the >Maradona Scandal in 94, was done to help Brazil, since they hadn´t win a WC in 24 years.
 

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Vito and Tango,
YOu say Maradona was better than Pele.
Pele scored 1200 goals + a little bit more...Maradona only scored 200. Threfore Pele scored 1000 goals more.
DOn't come with the argument that was the old days.....because Zico, Roberto Dinamite, Romario, Bebeto and Tulio have all scored over 500 goals....and they played or in the same time as Maradona or AFTER Maradona. B the way if Pele played in a team full of stars....why din't the other stars shine like he did?
And Argentina did win the WOrld Cup cheated.....in 78 they bought the Peruvian team out....and in 86 Maradona scored with his hand....if he had not scored it would have been 1x1...and Peter Shilton would save Cuciuffo's kick, plus of that extraodinary midfielder called Batista!! :)

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Discussion Starter #8
To compare Maradona with Pele is as difficult as saying that Batman is better than Superman or viceversa.

The number of goals scored cannot be the dividing line. If that is the case, Arthur Friedenreich (a Brazilian) scored 1329 goals in his 26 year career. Ze da Fiel is way off with his 200 goal counting for Maradona. Diego probably scored that many in Argentina alone before moving to Europe.

One important issue is to define how vital a player is: Pele was surrounded by magicians, as somebody pointed out: Tostao, Gerson, Jair, Rivelino. Maradona won the WC in 1986 literally alone. The hand of god? A fluke. Isn't perhaps the referee's fault? Why does it have to be Argentina's?

Regarding the 1978 Peruvian affair, many believe that the Argentine government bribed some Peruvian players. Roberto Munante, a Peruvian midfielder confirmed this but failed to render proof. But we should not forget that Claudio Coutinho's tactics had the Brazilian 78 squad immersed in a defensive style that made everybody laugh. What can you expect from a team whose final stage scorer was a defender? (Nelinho and his marvelous free kicks and long-distance curling shots).

Another reason why it is so difficult to compare Pele and Diego is because they played in different decades. From my view point, it is more difficult to play in the 90s or 80s than it was in the 50s or 60s.

Pele duly edges Diego in this one: Maradona failed to live up to his reputation whereas Pele has kept a strong image around the globe. Many may say "who cares?"

In terms of World Cups Pele also edges Maradona. By one and only one, because the star in WC 62 was Amarildo and not Pele.

Few people really give their heads a shake to answer the question. The vast majority goes with Pele simply because others say so. It is the old disciple-follows-the-master thing. What a pity. Many say, for instance, that DiStefano was the best soccer player ever. He won 5 European Cups, scored once with a bicycle kick from midfield (with the legendary Millonarios), and changed European soccer forever. He was the patriarch of the exodus of south american players to Europe, revolutionized soccer and teamed up in one of the best teams in history. Those are his contributions. He failed though, to play in the WC for off-pitch or injury issues. This is why not people consider him to be the best.

I personally like Pele a lot. I admire the man, his talents and skills. His contributions have been enormous. I will not ever forget that pass he made to Jairzinho for the latter to score against England in WC 1970. But he is not the best player I have seen on a soccer pitch. That is my personal opinion.

Best regards,

Footballenson
 

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footballlesson,
I liked your questions.....but frankly (i don't mean to insult you or anything) i think your conclusions and your arguments when right off track.
About the goals....Friendrich scored more than Pele, although many people say that the counting that he done was wrong! I personally don't know if it was wrong or not. Now here we are comparing Pele and Maradona, Friendrich ahs notthing to do with the comparation cause he never played alongside none of them. Maradona did not score 200 goals in Argentina. I don't exactly know the amount, but one thing is sure, Maradona has NEVER been a prolific goalscorer, unlike Pele who has been top scorer of most teams he played, and of at least 70% of the trounaments he played. That is a FACT
Pele scored 70+ goals for Brazil, while Maradona only scored 33 for Argentina!

About the world cups, the one World cup that Maradona shined was in 86. In 1990, he made that run agaisnt Brazil, but the other games he played average...that it . In 82 he was the biggest flop of a World cup (much more than Ronaldinho in 98) and in 94 he was playing quite well before the got caught with that substance!
Pele, at 17 an inspirational force for the Brazilian team....he took Dino Sani out of the team...at the time the ebst Brazilian player ahead of the likes Didi,Julinho Botelho and Garrincha. And Pele took this guy out at 17!
1962 he was the best player of Brazil until he got injured, then Garrincha , Zito and Amarilso led Brasil to the title. 66 the portuguse broke Pele...and 1970 was the best world cup he had.
Titles Pele has 200 more than maradona, goals also, presitige also.Pele done everything perfect, not Maradona ! Pele was individualistic and a team player, maradona was only individualistic!
I can go on and on....but i think my arguments are ok! please give us a reply
Also, please state that i prefer Maradona as a person to Edson Arantes do Nascimento.....but as a person. Mainly beacause Maradona is still the same Argentinian and Pele transformed himself into someone that he truly is not!

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Footballesson,
do you consider Rattin a saint?

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Discussion Starter #11
Rattin was no saint, but he was not an animal. If somebody is looking for the perfect example of what an "animal" does in a soccer pitch, just refer to Leonardo's cheap elbow on Tab Ramos in 1994.
Does anybody remember Rattin doing something like that in that 1966 game? Nope.

The problem with this whole issue (and this is how this discussion started) is about nationalism, or fanatism, as Tango cleverly put it. If you ask a Brazilian about Rattin, do not expect a compliment on Ubaldo. Ditto when you ask an Argentine about Branco or Marinho or Cerezo (to give you three examples of Brazilian temperamental players).

In few words, the discussion will end up no where. The same story goes with Pele and Maradona.

I tried to bring awareness of different factors that I think must be taken into account to choose the best soccer player ever. I have failed in my attempt. The level of fanatism is so settled in this discussion group it would take centuries to change somebody's mind up. It is also obvious that to some members the word "disagreement" means stupidity. I regret that. The same way I regret people like Alf Ramsey refer to other fellow sportsmen as "animals".

Get my point?

Footballenson
Edmonton, Canada
 

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Footballesson,
To call Leonardo an animal, really makes me think what world are you in! :(
If you say Eder was an animal i could at least accept your point of view, but Leonardo?? The guy is so cool. After that incident, he went to the hospital visit Tab Ramos several times, and today they are big friends.
Leonardo wherever he goes , he learns the national laguange, and educated guy, inteligent and true gentleman.....and you want to compare with Rattin, a guy who's biggest claim to fame is being expelled from Wembley Stadium for spitting and commiting dirty fouls. :(
Really , thanks for finishing the topic :), cause their is no point in discussing with you.
As for Pele and Maradona, please think Maradona is better, but Pele won 5 world cups (3 for brazil and 2 for santos) while Maradona only won 1, and it was with the "hand of cocaine"! :(

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Discussion Starter #13
Vito molto grazia. You're a gentleman among goons. You too Footballenson.

As for you Ze, you're a goon. I'll tell you why. Not only do you liberally display an ignorance when it comes to contemporary futbol. You seem to be unknowing of the greatness of your own players.

Why is it that people only talk of Pele? Why is it that people have forgotten the majesty of Garincha? Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that Garincha had problems with alcohol and did not lead the "exemplary" life Pele did? Sound familiar?

Besides, it is rediculos to think that because someone scores many goles that automatically makes him the greatest player.

Vito might remember that, however good a player Paolo Rossi may have been, the fact that he scored six (albeit crucial) goals in the '82 world cup compeletly eclipsed the greatness of Bruno Conti who was the focal point and orchestrator of the team.

The same is happening now on the Brazilian team. (Actually, this was more the case prior to '98.) Ronaldo is certainly an amazing player (my heart goes out to him after once again injuring his knee) but people only talk about him because of the goals he scores. That is a fact. Players like Roberto Carlos and Leonardo, who I think are eually gifted, are less known because they don't score many goals.

Diego was never a goal scorer (although it is unquestionable, I think even you'll agree Ze, probably not, that he scored the greateset goal in world cup history). His genius was in turning a game around with a "simple", magical pass. And he could do this at any time. Like Garincha, like Bruno Conti or even Roberto Carlos or Leonardo.

Sadly people just get sold on the fanfare. Just like in the movies, which is why no one remembers that The Godfather is simply the greatest American film, ever. (That one was for you Vito.)
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Just for the record: I am not defending Rattin nor fostering his manners. What Leonardo did after the Ramos incident sounds familiar to me: Schumacher did the same after he almost had Battiston killed with that kung-fu kick in 1982. Went to the hospital and gave him flowers. He even attended Battiston's wedding later. What a gentleman. Hipocrisy at its finest.

I repeat: Rattin was the captain and only asked for a translator. He was not expelled because of a foul. To many, the 1966 WC remains as the highlight of what a World Cup should not ever be. A tournement designed by Europeans only for Europeans. Do not get me wrong: I am not criticising the European people. I am simply against what the organizers orchestrated. I am just reporting a South American feeling that has remained intact over the years. You probably forgot that a German refereed the England-Argentina quarterfinal game and that an Englishman returned the favours in the England-Uruguay clash. At the end, Germany and England would meet in the final. Brazil was no problem because the team derailed earlier because of the brutality of Moraes and some Hungarians at Pele. Of course, nothing happened to Moraes and much less to Bene's orchestra.

And adding insult to injury, Ramsey calls the Argentines animals. Probably that is why he was knighted.

The best ever? There is no best player ever.
DiStefano, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona. You cannot compare them. There are no variables at hand to do so. If you disagree, fine. But you cannot say I am wrong. If you do, you should have your name changed to Fujimori, Duvalier, Stroessner or Somoza.

Footballenson
 
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Discussion Starter #15
A correction in the last message: The Englishman refereed Germany-Uruguay.

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The best goal in the World Cup? I agree with Tango. Maradona's in 1986 against England. No question about it. The best header? Pele's in the 1970 final.

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Best goal in the world cup, for beauty i'd go to with Maradona , for skill and dificulty, with Pele's 1958 in the final!
Tango, i did not forget about Garrincha, i was talking about Pele x Maradona, as most people in xtratime think Maradona was the best ever. Honestly This is the only place i have heard that people think Maradona is better than Pele. If tehy say Maradona weas the second best ever i will accept that, but i don't think so. To me Garrincha was the second best...and i do rate Zico higher than MAradona...and that is acceptable aswell. Agree tango and footballesson??) :)
Now one thing I personally do not admit is someone saying that Maradona is better than Pele. I do not like Pele personally but as a player nobody comes close to him of what he achieved thorought his career and his skilss etc.....
I accept any discussion od second best, you can even say Cruyjff was second best I will not fight for that..but for Pele not being number one, is something that does get on my nerves.
Tango, i rate Ronaldinho, but to me Romario is by far a better player and finisher a true genius, the best striker ever in my book, more than Gerd Muller! :)as i have already posted in many threads! And I cannot go saying about every brazilian polayer otherwise i'll spend my whole life typing at xtratime :(
Another thing, are you guys argetinians? You do you guys support in club level??


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Hi Ze. Nope. I am a Colombian who happens to enjoy Canadian winters a lot.

Here goes a bit of my story: Before the 90s, when Colombia rarely qualified to World Cups, we used to idolize Brazilian soccer in the same way we used to hate Argetinians. (I even remember I cried when Brazil lost to the strong Italian powerhouse in 1982). But many things have changed in the last decade, probably because of the kindness of the Argentine people I have met here in Canada. That made me reevaluate my judgement on Diego. I discovered I simply was biased at the man. Since then I started reviewing his achievements and that is why I admire him (despite his ups and downs). I frankly do not remember anybody playing like him in a WC like he did in 1986. Never had I seen a man overpowering his opponents so unmercifully.

I also remember I used to be a huge fan of Zico's. Excellent player. The problem is (according to something you wrote about Diego in the second reply to the discussion) that Zico did not win anything either (other than a Libertadores Cup with Flamengo). Zico was a formidable playmaker. He should not have gone to Udinese. Instead, he should have played for Juve, Inter or Milan. That was a wrong move.

I must agree on the beauty of Pele's goal in 58. That's my second best ever together with Nelinho's curling kick from nowhere against Italy (1978). But Maradona's in 1986 is the best goal I have seen in the World Cup. He dribbled SEVEN English players, including Shilton. The video we see in the website is missing the first two. There is another wonderful goal that not too many people remember: Scotland Archie Gemmill's against Holland in 1978. And of course, that Saudi's in 1994.

Well, it is good we are in better mood lately. The good thing about disagreement is that new discussions (hopefully amidst respect and good manners) are born.

Regards,
Footballenson
(Carlos)
 
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Ze, I agree with Footballenson; I'm glad the last few messages have been a little more respectful.

There's no need for the hostility. One because South America is too divided as it is. Divide and conquer they say. Two because we are talking apples and oranges.

You will never get me to believe that Pele was the best player in the world, just like I will never be able to convince you that Diego was the best in the world. But that doesn't matter. What does is that every so often, when the planets are aligned and the angels are among us, we are witness to the majesty of a futbol player that does what Mozart did with a sonata or Monet with a paintbrush; they showed us the grace of our human experience.

I know, I'm just talking about soccer but that's how I feel about beauty in any form. You just have to sit back and marvel at it.

Pele was beautiful to watch as was Diego and so many others. It is pointless to say which was better. It is only necessary to be thankful for being graced.

And yes, I am Argentinian. A River Plate fan. Things are looking pretty good in the Copa America, no?

Take care.
 

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Tango and Footballesson,
Ok I explianed that I really get on my nerves when somebody says that Pele is worse tahn maradona etc.....for me that is something i cannot discuss, I only discuss who is second best, than ok, bring on any poayer that you want.
I don't know if you uys ever heard of the best brazilian (probably of the world) football columinist Nelson Rodrigues (he's dies by the way, and his brother has his name on the Maracana , Mario Filho!) And he said: " Men have different views in everything, excpet one: from the alaskan, to the Hawaiian, from the indian to the arab, from the english to the africans from ....to ..., we all agree in on thing Pele is the best player of past, present and future!" And that's the way i feel till the end of my days! :) :)
Now about Zico, 82 was his WC but that unfortunately the only title he did not win, and then you have to cope with someone like Paulo Sergio winning it in 94 :( Disgusted :(
As for the Argentinians, honelty i have met few argies during my life time, and they have alwways been cool :) expect once in Maceio (northeast of Brazil) in the beach , were the whole beach started beating soem 7 argies up, I was still a kid and just started laughing :)
When i bash argies out, is mainly for the fun, after all we do have to hate our neighbours don't we? :)
Anyway I don't think you guys were around when teh thread was open, but try looking at the Inter forum about 1 month and half ago the topic,"To tazz and argie lovers", that was a cool one! :)
Now Tango, for the LIbertadores, sorry this is the year of the world champions, it should have been us last year, but the pigs Palmeiras robbed it from us, I did support River in the semis, but Palmeiras killed you guys! I just say one thing, don't meet us, otherwise you'll have a nightmare!!! :)
and waiting for the game in July, to beat argentina again..the biggest pleasure in International football! :) :)

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