[4-4-2]

I think there's no problem for Argentina to be among the top five in the world, but they're still far from being the champion of World Cup, at least teams like Brazil and the Netherlands are a little bit greater than them in my opinion.

Argentina has no doubt a world-class midfield but their defence really worries me. Many think that Argentina got a good defence or even the best in South America. It seems that other teams usually don't score much from them. But why? It's just because they have good midfielders to control the game. The domination of the games of their midfield entirely covers the weaknesses of the defence and very seldom will the defenders experience real test.

Their performances in the recent two games with England (WC98 & Friendly2000) have led to the rise of two strikers of the opponent, Owen and Heskey. Before the game with Argentina, Owen is solely a young player and not noted. However, after scoring that brilliant goal, his reputation rised a hundred times but why he can't score as brilliantly when facing other teams? That's due to the fact that the defence of Argentina is not that firm, so when facing fast strikers, their loopholes will be exposed. There's no assurance for them to beat others with dangerous raid power or fast forward. Just recall how they were eliminated by Romania in WC94 and how panic they were when facing England in WC98, then you will know why.

Chamot is the only defender who I think is okay in the current team. Sensini is experienced but also old and slow. He can't stop strikers with high speed like Owen and Overmars. Generally, their defence is simply overrated and with the current defence, Argnetina is not capable to win the WC.

Regarding the forward, I like Argentina¡¦s traditional centre break style of attacking but they lack strikers like Rivaldo, Amoroso, Kluivert, and Van Nistelrooy who have great breakthrough abilities and are good assistants of their partners and these qualities are what Batistuta, Crespo and Palermo lacked. They are so weak in dribbling and passing and always depend on members' passing.

This is the lineup that in my opinion can win the World Cup!!

GK <Searching>
DF <Searching>--<Searching>--Chamot--<Searching>(Zanetti)
MF Redondo(Almeyda)
MF Veron--Gallardo (Aimar/Kily)
MF Ortega(Gallardo)
FW <Searching>--<Searching>

Substitutes:
Batistituta
Crespo
Palermo
C.Lopez
Simeone
Alyala


[This message has been edited by 4-4-2 (edited 08-06-2000).]

 

[Argentina]

well, i dont want to go indepth with this situation, but i will talk about the argentine forwards.

i think there is nothing wrong with them. they have one of the best attackers in the world. i dont think that they need to change anything in order to win the world cup, well not in the attack area.

lets look at the past few winners of the wc.

86-maradona was the biggest impact. he is a midfielder.
90-germany won by scoring a penalty.
94-shootouts. even with romario and bebeto, brazil couldnt break the italian defence.
98-france won thanks to zidane. the french forwards were very weak compared to the rest of the team.
2002-i think argentina will win this wc because of their great midfielders and great forwards. they will play a great like a team and win like a team. defence will be helped, but IMO, it will also be improved by then since samuel is getting experienced.

 

[nasty nick]

italy has the best defence then france...

[This message has been edited by nasty nick (edited 07-06-2000).]

 

[almeyda+parma]

argentina defence line is the best in the world not just in south america
if u wana saw him watched the game against england
and u will see

i think we r almost nearer to be PERFECT TEAM

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Almeyda,
I don't know much about the argentina defense..but i dobt is the best of the world. I think probably Italy or England


------------------
GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor ate o fim.
A Corrente Jamais Sera Quebrada!
THE WORLD IS OURS

 

[EclipsE]

4-4-2: I agree with most of what you said. I've been thinking of the same thing myself. The fact is Argentina's defense isn't all that good, it's average. But the main reason why Argentina doesn't allow many goals is because their midfield as you said is stopping the opposition from even starting an attack! Argentina has some of the best defensive midfielders in the game and some great two way midfielders as well (Simeone, Almeyda, Redondo, Zanetti, etc). Hopefully Samuel will become their force in the centre of defense.

However, I don't agree with you whatsoever when you say that Argentina's forwards are weak and can't dribble. I'd like for you to watch some Crespo or Lopez goals, they sure can dribble. Perhaps Batistuta isn't that great of a dribbler but that's ok he finishes like no other.

The midfield and attack posses some of the greatest players in Europe at this moment so that should be no problem for them. Actually the only problem should be who to put in, since there is so many great midfielders and forwards that can't all start at the same time.

In conclusion, this is a good topic 4-4-2. One that I was going to bring up.

almeyda+parma: You are way to optimistic. From Argentina having the best defense in the world from your player rankings following the Bolivia game. Your defense is by far not the best in the World. You think you can actually compare to the defense of France, Italy, England, Netherlands? I think not!! I'm not trying to start anything here, but I think you are way too bias towards Argentina sometimes.

[This message has been edited by EclipsE (edited 07-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by EclipsE (edited 07-06-2000).]

 

[Argentina]

almeyda+parma is just too positive...its not a bad thing, but sometimes we must realize that there are problems.

 

[almeyda+parma]

guys realy i'm sure of that not hope for that

if any one donnot beilieve
i can't sayy more than WIAT AND U WILL SEE

about bolivia game what about it
bolivia did not have any dangerous chance expet the free kick

 

[EclipsE]

almeyda+parma: I didn't say that your defense sucked against Bolivia. I said you over ranked most of the players. Plus how could you give your defensemen a 7 rating if they only had to contest with 1 freekick!? That means that the Argentine defenders didn't have to do anything, which doesn't deserve a 7 rating.

[This message has been edited by EclipsE (edited 08-06-2000).]

 

[czar]

Good topic, but I'll go right to the point. It will take us 2 more years to win the WC. In short will we win it in 2002. 4-4-2, Argentina has amongst the best stikers in the world. Batistuta, Crespo, Lopez to name but three. The midfield is complete and offers plently of depth. With regards to the defence, you should axe Chamot. Samuel, Mendez, Quiroga and Milito are the future of Argentina's defence, although Zanetti, Ayala, Pochettino and potentially Sensini will play an important role in the next WC.

ARGENTINA WILL WIN THE NEXT WC. THIS IS NOT JUST WISHFUL THINKING



[This message has been edited by czar (edited 08-06-2000).]

 

[4-4-2]

It’s true that Batistuta and Crespo can score many goals in the Italian League but it doesn’t mean that they are very best forwards. My ideal forward is one who not only has scoring ability, but also great assists. This requires good passing and dribbling skills but these are what they lack.

EclipsE: I don’t agree with you when you said Batistuta and Crespo passing and dribbling is ok. They always wait to be finisher, to score but not doing anything else like to assist???

Why had Fiorentina such a low total number of goals even though they had the “best striker in the world”?

Although Roma’s Delvecchio, Totti and Montella’s shooting are not as great as Batistuta, yet they can assists each other, thus the total no. of goals of Roma is much greater (total 57) than that of Fiorentina (total 48).

Why the attack of Holland and Brazil are both greater than Argentina? It’s because depending on Batistuta cannot increase the total no. of goals of the team.


[This message has been edited by 4-4-2 (edited 08-06-2000).]

 

[EclipsE]

4-4-2: I said Crespo and Lopez are good dribblers and Batistuta is ok. I agree that Bati isn't that great of a creator as well, but he makes up for it with finishing. And I think Lopez is a good passer if he has to be watching Valencia games. Also, don't forget that Ortega plays slightly behind 2 Argentina forwards (most likely Bati - Lopez) and he is a good dribbler and a decent passer. So I see no problems with the attack what so ever.

And I don't know if the attack of Holland and Brazil is better than Argentinas? I don't know how you know either. At the WC Argetina and Holland had roughly the same amount of goals. And if you look at the current WC qualifiers Argentina has more goals than Brazil has.

 

[almeyda+parma]

EclipsE
man , i gived him 7 cuase everytime boliva players trying to get near the argentina ZONe
they didnot alwaoud them TO DO THAT
IN intelegence and STRONG WAY

 

[jrzi]

What a pathetic argument by you (4-4-2). First, since when Holland is better than Argentina?!! Argentine players lack the skill Netherlands' players posses. Is that smart of you to say that. I don't get it. Holland has never won a world cup, let alone they are always rated less favorite than Argentina to win the world cup! Holland can't actually field a second team, when they do they always fail! Argentine players always have better skills and imagination than Holland's players. Anyway, who are those "great" dribblers in Holland National Team. Kluivert, why didn't he show it against great teams like Argentina and Brazil! I didn't see that piece of skill from him. Overmars, oh yeah he only dribble in 1 on 1 situations, and only on wild space and on the wing (side of the field) now that is a "great" dribbler argentina is missing?!!!!!!!!
Anyway when Holland produces players better technically than Argentina, then you can start this argument again.

Think of Ortega, Gonzalez, Aimar, Gallardo, Riquelme, Saviola, Redondo and even left-back Placente…etc all of them are more gifted than your Holland crap. By the way only davids can be compared to the Argentines.

 

[4-4-2]

Hey Man,

I want to clarify one thing. I'm a 100% fanatic of Argentina. Actually, I really hope they can win the next WC, but I see some problems in the team so I wanna bring them out and let everybody know.

I hate Holland and Brazil but I have to admit that they have something better than ours.

I won't keep saying that Argentina is the best blindly coz there would not have any progressions if everybody thinks that they are the best.

jrzi:"Holland has never won a world cup" ???

Please do not go into history. What I am talking about is the current team. Have 86's Maradona, 78's Kempes....come back ????

Please give some evidences for your points.

 

[4-4-2]

I repeat the current Argentina is only among top five but still far from being World Cup winner.

EclipsE and jrzi : I hope you would answer my question and evaluate all my views.

Why the attack of Fiorentina is weaker than Udinese and Roma http://www.raisport.rai.it/mcalcio/1999_2000/a/ even though Fiorentina have greater midfielders Rui Costa + Batistuta + Chiesa + Mijatovic but Udinese has no world-class players like “Batistuta?
My answer is: Batistuta can't assist. He becomes the hero himself but the attack of the team is very weak is a fact.

Link :
http://www.fifa2.com/scripts/runisa.dll?s7.131762:gp:759823:67173+wc/2002/draw/ff/1+CONMEBOL

Show Brazil stronger

P_________GF_______________GA
54___100(1.85/game)___53(0.98/game)___(ARG)
47___126(2.68/game)___25(0.53/game)___(BRA)

Any statistics can easily prove that the attack of Brazil is greater than that of Argentina so much. It's not necessary to waste time in arguing this point.
And Holland, I think we can find the answer in Euro 20000

I'm dissatisfied with Batitstuta, Crespo and Lopez because they can't create attacks as dangerous as those of Brazil. (ref. to the above statistics)

Argentina's defence is by no means stronger than those of the Europeans and EclipsE, you agree to this too. Their attack is again weaker than the Brazilians? So, how are they going to win World Cup?

Argentina tends to use their traditional centre break style of attacking even against teams firm and strong defence like England (WC98)(only goaled with P.K. and F.K.) However, Batistuta and Crespo are unable to practice the centre break attack because they can't score/assist like these

http://www.raisport.rai.it/mcalcio/1999_2000/a/e002957.mpg (very good passing and assisting)
http://www.raisport.rai.it/mcalcio/989a/r04r/022361.mpg (very good passing and assisting)
http://www.raisport.rai.it/mcalcio/989a/r04a/020891a.mpg (personal breakthrough abilities)
http://www.raisport.rai.it/mcalcio/989a/r01r/020891.mpg (very good dribbling)

Only strikers such as Rivaldo, Amoroso, Edmundo, Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy, Bergkamp..? and Raul are suitable for this style. I think the attack will be increased by 40% if Batistuta + Lopez + Crespo are replaced by the above any three.




Some goals are added

[Edited by 4-4-2 on 11-06-2000 at 08:46]

 

[jrzi]

Again 4-4-2 your argument is weak?!! I mean what with this statistics?!! It's meaningless, every match is different, 'cause it depends on the form of the team, their opponents, their approach to the match…etc. you know that Argentina played many of their matches with their second and sometimes third team. Not to mention the last couple Copa America played with their second squad. How can you tell what they might done if … and don't forget about the chances they create but couldn't convert in many matches, you don't have the statistics to support that, don't you?
If you watch Holland- Argentina match back in march '99, you would see, for example, that in the first half Argentina embraced Holland by pressing them and keep them defending on their own half and in the front of their crowd! Argentina has the better and more chances than Holland, but they couldn't capitalize on them or they would win. Not to mention Argentina played some neat passing and show some great ball control and dribbling!
"Only strikers such as Rivaldo, Amoroso, Edmundo, Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy, Bergkamp..? and Raul are suitable for this style." Amoroso, what did he do for the national team! He didn't impress, not to mention he was dropped from the starting line-up because he simply sucks. Rivaldo isn't a striker!! Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy, and Bergkamp are piece of crap! How come you compare them to Batistuta, Crespo, and even Lopez! Batistuta is very good 1 on 1, you have to watch his goals again. Not to mention he is better on freekicks than any Netherlands player.

4-4-2 you may not know this, but dribbling and assisting from the strikers isn't the most important thing. Argentina will play as a team, not individuals. On individual bases they are much better than Holland, they are South Americans in the first place, and the most important thing is to posses a great technique. In the team, they want to combine a different types of players: skillful, imaginative, strong, powerful, speedy…etc
Argentina among the top 5! NO, they are the Second and by a slight margin to Brazil. Other teams are not better than Argentina. Holland, Spain, England, France are NO WAY better than Argentina. Trust me, anytime, anywhere, anyplace Argentina can beat them all and with no doubt.

Skills you can name Gustavo Lopez, Claudio lopez, Veron, Aimar, Saviola, Gallardo, Riquelme, placente, Redondo…etc all of the are more talented and posses better skills than Netherlands' players. Unfortunately, Argentina can't field all of them at the same time.

 

[Guest]

IMO Argetnina and Brazil aren't really tested until they play in the World Cup or play among the best European teams.
Brazil and Argentina are by far the best 2 teams in South America, and as shown in the World Cup proved that by going a step further than other SA teams like Paraguay,Chile,Colombia and in 94 Bolivia.

I think Argentina will have a good chacne of progressing far in the 2002 WC, possibly going all the way to the Final and winning it. But it won't have changed much since WC 98, teams such as Italy, Germany, England, Netherlands, France, you know, all the big European teams, will all be still very strong too. And there is usually one or two East European teams too that progress very far.

 

[Ze da Fiel]

442, like your arguments
show up in the Brazil forum mate

Driver X. What do you mean by Brazil and Argentina not being tested until we reach the WC? I think you should see that the quality in the semi finals and finals of the LIbertadores was ABOVE the Champions league!
Also, Argentina and brazil are BETTER than any team in Europe.
Last year we played with our 2 team agaisnt Spain (ans Spain were rated as the hottest european team), and we drew 0x0, without training and the goalie arriving in Spain only at the day of the match. While Argentina beat Spain 2x0, 15 days later.
We might not be playing well now, but we would not lose to any European side...speacially considering what I have seen do far in the Euro 2000!