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I was watching some program on Euro D about Hooligans and how they operate.. it was an undercover camera:

First off they have their meeting points, where they all meet up and get onto their coach.. they then stop at local shops and petrol stations.. and rob the shops.. if the shop keeper tries to open his mouth.. they beat them up too.. they then trash the shop before leaving and returning to their coach.. they then started blazing (smoking 'keyif', weed) on the coach.. and starting showing eacother their knives... they then hid their knives in their shoes... and started singing some messed up tune:

forgot the first line
2nd line: futbol holiganliktir (football is hooliganism)
3rd line; futbol adam bicaklamaktir (football is stabbing people)
 

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hasan i have tried to explain in many forums.

this is not hooliganism in the British sense.

the problem is not only in stadiums it is everywhere. Due to povertiy, social inequality, poor education these young kids dont know what they are doing. Altough the whole program on CNN turk showed Fenerbahce fans, filmed by a journalist who asked the fans to film a documentary, the same problem exists in every football team in Turkey.

And unless economic and social conditions improve, the problem will never be solved 100% like it is in the UK. There with strict police regulation they have managed to control the holiganism but in Turkey it is a different story.
 

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Wow, I guess that just goes to show how widespread the reporting of the stabbing was :googly:

That's some unnecessary bad publicity for Besiktas and Carsi :groan:
 

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Erectus said:
hasan i have tried to explain in many forums.

this is not hooliganism in the British sense.

the problem is not only in stadiums it is everywhere. Due to povertiy, social inequality, poor education these young kids dont know what they are doing. Altough the whole program on CNN turk showed Fenerbahce fans, filmed by a journalist who asked the fans to film a documentary, the same problem exists in every football team in Turkey.

And unless economic and social conditions improve, the problem will never be solved 100% like it is in the UK. There with strict police regulation they have managed to control the holiganism but in Turkey it is a different story.

The most sound analysis I've read in a while.
You're correct, whether it be Fenerbahce fans, Besiktas fans or GS fans (or fans of other teams), all these groups have fanatic elements in them.

THis is because of the economic and social conditions.As usual (and in the spirit of the true Turkish way) everyone is trying to wash their hands clean and find a scapegoat-which happened to be the Besiktas fans in the particular unfortunate incident that took place a couple of weeks ago.

No one considered their own responsibility, and what their actions had to do with it. And such violence is pretty widespread as well, everyday in teh papers we read about stabbings and murders throughout Turkiye.
People loose it and stab their loved ones...
People kill each other over kan davasi, namus davasi and a host of other stuff.

THe hooligan problem is not because Turkish fan bases harbour criminals... In fact, a majority of fans are quite decent people.
It's because, as a whole, the socio-economic situation in Turkey (as well as the level of education) creates a suitable environment for such behaviour. It's very unfrotunate...

Of course, football gets its fair share from this as well.
Sad part is, No one is lookign to improve this, instead they're just looking for someone or something to blame. If closing down stadiums and punishing good fans for the behaviour of a fanatical few (or in the case of the Besiktas incident: punishing thousands for a criminal act that was committed inside a stadium) is going to solve it, sure..Let's close down every stadium...

But IMHO, that's not the solution. THe police need to get involved, find the leaders of such hooligan groups, and stop them. Individual accountability is the only solution. THe Turkish government has always assumed that 'punishment' will solve everything...Well not if you're punishing a majority for the actions of a few...
That will only alienate the majority...

We can take England as an example, and implement their procedures/tactics when trying to solve this problem.
 

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Let me give an example of how things work in Turkiye, compared to how they should work..
Take the horrible earthquake that happened 4-5 years ago…
It took numerous lives, destroyed whole communities and families.

Yes it was a horrible Earthquake capable of destruction, but SO MUCH destruction could have been averted if construction companies had used the proper amount of material (cement, Iron etc.) while building apartments and housing…
But, in order to make more money, they didn't use the amount of material legislated by law, and the buildings collapsed like cardboard boxes…

What happened after the quake? There was big upheaval over this…
Everyone was up in arms about how these construction companies and contractors were crooks and murderers, how we could have saved so many lives had they not been so greedy.

ONE man was found, I forget his name. A contractor without big connections probably. His trial was made public, and he was sentenced to jail for neglect (he used as little cement and iron etc. as possible when constructing buildings to make more money).
The scapegoat was found and sentenced…

What happened afterwards? Nothing..
The same contractors that built those buildings which crumbled, are still in business, making millions of dollars..
And if another earthquake happens (god forbid), the same thing will happen again!
Laws were passed, but not implemented..Everythign got messed up in the mumbo-jumbo of daily politics…
And nothgin was accomplished, the loss of tens of thousands of lives meant nothing….

That is how things run in Turkiye…I hope the same doesn't happen with hooliganism, but having seen so many examples of similar incidents, I'm not hopeful to be honest.
 

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Thats why what media is doing now is very wrong and bad for our football. They are simply scaring off the good fans by simply magnifying the problem and attaching it to only to the stadiums and football.

Now they are taking many counter measures some are good but some are complete none sense. Plus you know how Turkish people in charge behave, either they dont do what they were told at all or they do it so strictly that if it says no man on the stairs than no man on the stairs but also not before the game. That kind of irrational behaviour makes things even worse.

However as d-lite says this is Turkey all will be forgotten after the half season but the affects of todays media broadcasts will have a major influence on the good fans
 

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Erectus said:
hasan i have tried to explain in many forums.

this is not hooliganism in the British sense.

the problem is not only in stadiums it is everywhere. Due to povertiy, social inequality, poor education these young kids dont know what they are doing. Altough the whole program on CNN turk showed Fenerbahce fans, filmed by a journalist who asked the fans to film a documentary, the same problem exists in every football team in Turkey.

And unless economic and social conditions improve, the problem will never be solved 100% like it is in the UK. There with strict police regulation they have managed to control the holiganism but in Turkey it is a different story.
I agree with you to some extent. But it is not only the ones in poverty or the uneducated people that are "hooligans". I remember watching a documentary that was aired on Euronews here in the US that showed hooligans in the EPL specifically Chealsea supporters. It was filmed in 02 and showed how these men in their mid 20s to mid 30s would meet up at bars and plan how they were going to cause trouble. The British police had a wanted list circulating amongst their department to catch these people. They were recieving money from businessmen and alot of them themselves were people with high paying jobs. Not only were the Brits after these guys other countries law enforcements were too. They would not allow them into their countried when Chelsea had a match outside of the UK. These people would travel to other countries and take buses and trains so they could not be traced or followed. What im trying to get at is this... Yes, a majority of the trouble makers in Turkiye and other countries are youngsters but, that doesn't mean that they are the only ones. It is the "big" men behind them that are egging these people on and making them do their dirty work.
 

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And the reality is that the sad death of Cihat Aktas has nothing to do with Hooliganism, only with the stupidity of one men. But the politicians and the medias attack the organized groups (Carsi, GFB, Ultraslan, ...) believing they are guilty from such events whereas the majority of the members these groups are OK people...

In Turkey, as soon as they can, the medias try to talk about the terror of the stadiums. If it exists, their attack are often launched by events, which have nothing to do with that. For example, the day before Galatasaray-Leeds, the 2 english fans were stabbed in Tarlabasi. Tarlabasi is considered like a dangerous quarter after 22.00 and it's not counciled to go there during nights. But these 2 drunken idiots went there, and like everybody know, made schocking and obscenes acts and provocations in this poor quarter. To punish them, 2 dangerous fools of this quarter didn't find a better solution than killing them...
This event had nothing to do with soccer but the turkish medias (and then, all the world medias inspirated by our medias) told that Galatasaray hooligans had killed Leeds fans, whereas this event had absolutely not to do witht he game !

The terror of the tribuns exists, less than in the past of course, and the government must repress it but they must find the real guilty people !
 

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This article was published last year. But you can read it, it's interesting.

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Observer sport joins Turkish fans waiting to greet those England supporters who beat the FA ban on travelling to Istanbul for Saturday's European qualifier.

'We will welcome the English, then we'll bury them,' menaces Levent Agar, with a gap-toothed grin - mischievously unclear whether he refers to our team or fans; joking or not. But his smile and ambiguity are interrupted by one of the loudest eruptions in football that greets into the arena two teams about to engage in arguably the world's most partisan, 'mental' sporting event - the derby between Galatasaray and Fenerbahçe of Istanbul.
This is the battle between two clubs from the same city but different continents - Europe and Asia - divided by the Bosporus, astride which a metropolis of 16 million sprawls from either bank. It is a confrontation up there in the league of loathing with Roma-Lazio or Celtic-Rangers and devoid of that Samba carnival nonsense that makes Rio's Flamengo-Fluminense so limp. 'This is war,' declares the Fenerbahçe fans' leader, Sefa. 'In Glasgow maybe it's religion, in Rome maybe it's politics. Here it's pure football. We hate each other, that's all.'

Galatasaray are at home, so the volcano of flares and confetti is red and yellow this time. And the roar is just that in this lion's den - an extraordinary sound from deep within the throats of the crowd. Galatasaray are known as 'Leo' (as in lion) and the supporters' vanguard as 'Ultra Aslan' (as in the witch and the wardrobe). Levent and Fenerbahçe's 4,000 fans - outnumbered today by 76,000 rivals - have already been penned in their cage for five hours as a security measure and now do their usual thing: a spectral, inexplicable silence at kick-off, broken suddenly and exactly three minutes into the match by a surge of shouting and jumping up and down, side to side, to and fro, like some frenzied organism.

These are the boys who will (reluctantly) bury their differences to face England on Saturday. These are the boys who make Turkish football one of 'five countries that are completely insane', says Refik Caglayan, one of Fenerbahçe's chant leaders, facing his ranks, back to the pitch. 'Italy, Brazil, Argentina, you and us. But we are first, the craziest.' Fenerbahçe are the club who will host England at Sukru Saracoglu, a stadium renowned for its intimidating intimacy and deliberately trapped acoustics. 'It's the first time Turkey have played at our ground,' says Sefa. 'It's a test we have to pass - to prove we can support the national team even more crazily than Galatasaray.'

Like the Italians, the Turks have a wholesome array of football newspapers. The main one is Fanatik, whose editor, Necil Ulgen, is one of the most personable individuals in Istanbul, behind his smart desk in jeans, surrounded by - and with a head full of - football. 'Why are we so crazy? It's in the blood. There's no rational explanation why we are like this and not, say, the French. Football-crazy nations are naturally born like that.'

Turkish football is a newcomer to the global elite: a presence heralded by Galatasaray's Uefa Cup final win over Arsenal in 2000, and affirmed by a World Cup campaign of such tenacity that it took Brazil to deny Turkey a place in the final. And last week, the Istanbul team Besiktas gave Chelsea a poke in the moneybag by humiliating Roman Abramovich's millionaires 2-0 at Stamford Bridge. Ulgen attributes the rise and rise of the Turkish game to a confluence of factors: not least the arrivals of Graeme Souness and German Jupp Derwall to coach Galatasaray and Denmark's Sepp Piontek the national team. 'Clubs then began scouting Turkey for young talent; the process became more scientific,' says Ulgen. 'So we had world stars from here, like Emre Okan, now at Inter Milan.'

Meanwhile, Galatasaray, above all, went on the international market. 'This was possible because of commercial developments,' says Ulgen. 'TV advertising formed itself into a pool, like in England and Italy.' Increasing amounts of corporate money went into the clubs, he explains, 'which also helped build a national team - of which we're very, very proud. Maybe too much, maybe expectations are too high - that's what went wrong against Brazil [in the World Cup semi-finals], that's the only thing that could go wrong against England.'

Three teams have dominated Turkish football for decades - Galatasaray, Fenerbahçe and Besiktas, once coached by Gordon Milne, once featuring Les Ferdinand, reigning champions and too good for Chelsea last Wednesday. 'There are clichés about which team has what identity,' says Ulgen, 'but they count for something. Roughly speaking: Galatasaray is still close to the French lycée [of the same name, where it was founded in 1905], with connections among the elite and in government. The Fenerbahçe club ran guns to Turkish fighters during the First World War, which we call the war of independence - and thus became associated with the military, and the most popular club. Until recently, when Galatasaray invested about $100 million in world-class players, like the Romanians Hagi and Popescu. Besiktas has the smallest support, but the most fanatical - the more independent people's team.'

It is Wednesday night at the Galatasaray Lycée Old Boys club, for a big-screen relay from Turin, and Juventus. The diners and drinkers are all former students at the lycée, many of them alighting from SUVs in elegant suits and off-the-shoulder dresses. But not all. A man called Cilik, theatre director and former head of education for the communist party, leads off a pre-match chat about Trotsky's military genius. And Radip Duran, a leftist writer and teacher of journalism at Galatasaray, illustrates the school's football bond by explaining: 'When I was in jail for interviewing a Kurdish leader, all my right-wing friends from here came to visit and help, because of Galatasaray. It's the strongest identity I have, a brotherhood. I've known these people from the same refectory, the same class and now football. Yes, of course we have a few roughs, but we're still the aristocrats of football, the class act.'

Galatasaray give Juventus a better game than the Italians had bargained for and an equaliser by Hakan Sükür has the educated elite of Istanbul, one over the eight, leaping around and on the polished tables. 'The landscape has changed,' says Duran. 'In the 1980s, there was great popular demand for a better Turkish game and the government met that demand to create a pacifier, in a way. Hidden funds were poured into teams, notably in Kurdish areas. The team Diyarbakir was in the second division - and big money made sure it was promoted to the first. But that didn't create the technical improvements. That came from outside: Derwall, Hagi.'

Duran insists that he would not share a dinner table with a Fenerbahçe supporter but agrees to do so - a few nights later - with a Besiktas fan, Bertan Agaloglu. Bertan is angry; angry with Fenerbahçe because, as he puts it, 'they represent all the Turkish nation'. Angry with Galatasaray 'because they want to be our brothers and we hate them'. 'Winning,' he says, 'is not what Besiktas is about. It's enough to be a fan.'

Bertan's hero is the French player Pascal Nouma, whom he admires for punching Leeds United's Danny Mills at Elland Road, an incident hailed by Turkish fans as a blow against racism. Nouma, thereby, became a hero of the country's anti-fascist movement; a photograph of him punching Mills takes pride of place alongside portraits of Castro and Che Guevara. Nouma's contract with Besiktas was revoked, however, after he stroked his penis in jubilation after scoring and after too many nights clubbing, for which the fans loved him even more.

Besiktas fans call themselves Carsi and there is no doubt which Turkish team have the best and most strident and endearing songs: 'Got no money, no car, not even a **** to ****/But I don't care/ Because we are Carsi, Kings of the World.' Or: 'Got no money for the bar/Too ugly to pull a girl/No charisma to cut a cool image/But we belong to Besiktas, so **** the lot of you.' The club colours are black and white: 'White-Black, Life-Death', read the banners.

The Genç Fenerbahçeliler - Fenerbahçe Youth - meet on the eve of the derby in the heart of their territory, the city's Asian side. Sefa - no surname on offer - is the leader of this battalion. 'Our team is our life,' he says. 'Here, the first thing you ask someone is who they support and if it's Galatasaray, there's nothing more to say. It's above politics - we all voted for the prime minister because he supports Fenerbahçe.'

'I'm a leftist, Sefa is fascist,' interjects a fan called Oguz, 'and we both voted for him.' Resit Yaruz recalls how 'I was getting divorced a while back and wanted custody of my son so I could bring him up Fenerbahçe - you see his mother is Besiktas. The lawyers said these were not grounds for custody, so I stayed married until he was a good Fenerbahçe fan, then got divorced.'

Refik, one of Sefa's squadron leaders, thinks that the rise of Turkish soccer was elevated from below. 'We were so passionate about the game, demanding a better one, that they had to respond.'

And while big businessmen emptied fortunes into the clubs, people such as Atakan Otyakmaz, an advertising executive, found money for the fans. 'I pay for the poor to go to games and to travel, especially to the European matches. I think support for a team should be a spectacle, a work of art, and that is what I want to ensure.'

'It happens at all teams,' Necil Ulgen had said at Fanatik. 'You'll find businessmen at Galatasaray and Besiktas who buy travel and tickets for the poor, fireworks and things, for their own satisfaction.'

We proceed to a singular meeting, over burgers and mountains of chips, at the Dilruba restaurant overlooking the Bosporus. On one side of the long table, Sefa and his men; opposite them, Sabahttin Sabin, a former chief of the extreme right-wing Grey Wolves and leader of the Galatasaray pack now with him. Most of these lads have flicked a few knives and thrown a few punches in their time. But the idea now is not to repeat the performance - indeed, this surreal meeting is possible only because of one of the most remarkable episodes in the history of subterranean football culture: the Treaty of Istanbul, brokered by Sefa and Sabin.

'It got very, very bad,' says Sefa. 'For most of the games, people would sleep out all night and there would be fights between thousands on each side. People were killed - it was out of control.'

'We had to do something,' adds Sabin, 'so there'd still be someone left to go to the games!'

So, says Sefa, 'a hundred of us, a hundred from Galatasaray and a hundred from Besiktas met in a huge park. At first, we didn't trust each other, but finally we agreed we wouldn't fight a war like that again.'

Match day begins early for the Fenerbahçe lads. They must corral, on orders from Sefa and the police, outside their own ground at 9am. A thorough frisk precedes the boarding of a convoy of old buses, which heave their way for two hours around the frayed edges of town and across the Bosporus, under armed escort. A welcoming committee at the Olympic stadium comprises a baying crowd of Galatasaray fans and columns of police - truncheons, riot shields and automatic weapons at the ready, armoured vehicles perched on hilltops. Chanting 'Let us at 'em!', the guests are bundled into their cage behind the goal, to wait five hours for kick-off.

Yaruz, now divorced, laces his cola with dollops of Johnnie Walker, while a sea of red gradually engulfs the empty home terraces. 'We've Never Seen So Many Bum-Boys' proclaims one Fenerbahçe banner. 'You're All Sons of Bitches' comes the reply. There is some sporadic scrapping in the sea of red, with some away fans who have dived into it for a laugh and a punch-up - but the police dive in to haul them out.

Even the game is insane. Twice Fenerbahçe score, twice Galatasaray equalise within a minute. A hand of God, Maradona style, from Fener's Fabio Luciano saves what would have been a winning goal for Galatasaray, with no penalty given. The sea of red reacts accordingly, pelting the pitch with rubbish, while 50 riot police stream on to the pitch to encircle the referee, Muhidin Bosat, with their shields and escort him to the safety of the tunnel. When it is finally time for Fenerbahçe's fans to leave, police wade in with long sticks to break up a Galatasaray ambush across the wasteland. 'It's all pretty normal for this game,' shrugs Fenerbahçe's Sergei Rebrov. 'It can get a lot worse.'

Meanwhile, all that fuss is breaking out over Arsenal at Old Trafford, but here the authorities breathe a sigh of relief that the day - seen by them as a curtain-raiser for England's visit - passed off quietly and admit that their policing operation was a dress rehearsal all along.

And indeed, Sunday's ruck done with, the fans' minds also turn to another fixture: England. At the Galatasaray-Fenerbahçe summit in the Dilruba restaurant, unity between sworn rivals at the international match was top of the agenda - the real reason for relative peace on Sunday. The kind of unity that has made Turkey fans feared of late - markedly in France, for the Confederations Cup, when opponents were routinely treated to a tribute of coins and batteries.

At that meeting, Galatasaray leader Sabin explained the home fans' version of the fatal stabbing in 2000 of two visiting Leeds fans. 'They insulted our flag and our people. They pulled down their trousers in a crowded square and showed their arses, which is an insult to our women and traditions, then wiped their arses with our Turkish flag.'

'We are a proud people,' Sefa added, 'Europe's youngest country, with very strong national values, and the flag is particularly important.'

'What we are saying,' chipped in another Galatasaray fan, Oguz Altay, 'is this: we will not attack you, but if the English mock our country or our flag, we won't be too gentle in response.'

In the wretched suburb of Umraniye, the discourse is less restrained. Umraniye houses some of the poorest of Istanbul's poor, in a forest of decrepit tower blocks in between which encampments of gypsy tents are pitched. Tens of thousands of Kurds have come here in flight from war-torn villages in the east, as have Turks from the impoverished rural reaches. The Kurds support Galatasaray since they are the team of choice for Abdulah Ocalan, leader of the Kurdish PKK guerrilla group, while the Turks split between all three teams.

A scallywag called Sayim Leoglu claims to be one of a Galatasaray gang called 'Stay Up All Night' (ie, before the game, queuing for tickets and fighting), to which two men convicted of killing the Leeds fans in 2002 - but later freed - also belong. Sayim shies from confirming the legend that his gang are armed with sharpened kebab skewers. 'Any blade will do,' he says with a grin.

Sayim kicks a stone and thinks. 'Look. It doesn't need us to start it off. It's the people in the street who will start the fighting if you English insult us. All we have to do is wait.' The stone tumbles down a slope and splashes into a puddle, beside a trough and public tap where women wash clothes. 'But we're the ones who carry knives,' muses Sayim's mop-headed mate, Ekrem Altayh. 'We come into it after it has started off and we are faster, because the English are all drunk. And if you abuse this country like Leeds did, you die again.'
 

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the last article explains it all. these groups for sure is the main problem imo plus the clubs that give them free ticket and bus ride to away games.
 

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lion trainer said:
the last article explains it all. these groups for sure is the main problem imo plus the clubs that give them free ticket and bus ride to away games.
Not the whole groups, only the leader who are here for 15-20 years who get money from the clubs !
 
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