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Bernard > Messi
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:smileani:
 

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But I don't think Dunga should be crucified. He made some wrong decisions, but the fans supported him and he did a very good job in those 4 years. The fact is this generation is just not great as our tradition.
 

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Bernard > Messi
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Discussion Starter #6
2006

5 games
4 wins, 1 loss
10 gols a favor
2 gols contra
- Eliminated by Zidane's france

2010

5 games
3 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw
12 gols a favor
4 gols contra
- Eliminated by a shit Holland.

In
Time to get back to our football roots.

Get and offfensive coach and let's play like Brasil again.
Exactly. Brazilians were following/supporting dunga the same the sheep support dictators.

Ele não pode ser questionado!!! Ele bota um ponta direita de lateral esquerdo e robben vai jogar em cima desse panaca... Mas fazer o quê né... Tanta gente "entendida" de futebol tava apoiando essa ameba...


I'm really happy right now, first because I won a tv and second because dunga's mentality will be vanished and third because the retards (zé-povinhos) will stop bashing our greatest genaration ever (pelé's generation doesn't count because he isn't human) because we lost 0-1 against France in a world cup knock out stage...

Ronaldo was getting in shape during the WC, just like in 2002, but we were eliminated early. That's life.

Simple as that.
 

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The truth is there's no Pele, no Zico, no Romario, Garrincha, ROnaldo level players in this team. We lacked greatness.
 

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Pathetic to see how Galvão Bueno never said it was Julio Cesar's fault at the first goal that changed everything. lol
 

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Bernard > Messi
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Discussion Starter #9
Pathetic to see how Galvão Bueno never said it was Julio Cesar's fault at the first goal that changed everything. lol
yeh..

sometimes I believe galvão gets a cut from JCesars salary.

him and robinho. they both can't do wrong.

JCesar hit Melo's head with his arm. That was HIS fault.
 

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What? Because in your insane critics you ever mentioned Julio Cesar doing a mistake?
Lets me see: Kaka did not showed a physical incapacity of playing. In fact, he was even playing well. His bench is and was irrelevant.
Robinho was neither one to be blamed. He was doing fine.
So, what is the critic? Felipe Melo? As far I mentioned while you people were too worried with players that had no difference that our problem was his head and the left side. So, yest, thank you for seeing that our world crap middlefield to contain the super dutch side, the impressive perform of Spain and England.
 

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So you were not wrong about Brazil, JC, I see. I was wrong about England but you were 100% right in all your views. Júlio Baptista always playing well for the NT, for example.

And by the way, Brazil didn't lose the game today because of the left-side, Brazil blew it when they lost the control after the goals, Felipe Melo's sending off and the inability to players coming from the bench to have any impact. But this has nothing to do with Dunga, I suppose, Camilo was right, he had a gameplan and the team was very solid.
 

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The question is what are my views. Another is thinking that views about the national team in may were perfect that one is proved right by 45 minutes. This way all arguments were silly, because Dunga always defended with results and he got results so far, meaning all critics to him until yesterday are simply wrong (Of course, Obaixinho goes that way, since to him 1982 was a failure).

For example, I never said Julio Baptista was always playing well. And taking Julio Baptista made no difference watsoever in that game. He did not even play.

And yes, we lost in the left side. Not because Robben had great advantages or great game, but Holand only attacked by that side, that is where the cards and the annoying fouls happened, both goals happened from there (and of course, the team lack of focus and intensity that happened all cup, helped Julio Cesar to do a sloppy move, Juan give away a corner kick that could be easily a throw in, a set piece that our defense was able to take, cross the area), the red card happened there, between first and second goal the change (and Bastos wasnt even playing that badly) for Gilberto happened there.
And yes, Felipe Melo was problem everyone foresee, I do not see who should be in the bench that would do any impact (and who would Dunga take off when Melo was out) but the funny thing is to think now the team was solid and did not had a organization (when it had) and how you people think just because I (or anyone) agree about RG not being called, sundenly we write down everything Dunga does. (I am still amazed how everything is black and white and we can 100% sure about something, to me seems like you guys agree with Dunga, so if you win you are right, you lose you are wrong) and Dunga has his responsability yes. He was a sargent kind of coach, but in the cup, he was more close to Bielsa, losing himself with the press clashes and the desire to shiled all players and take all on him. The team, unlike before, was not focused, had several blackouts in the cup (all four goals) and the problem was not a replacement for Kaka (who was physically fit), or even Gilberto Silva slowness and old age. But no team with Brazil defense can allow goals for last minute distraction like North Korea or that second goal with Holand. Nobody saw brazilian defense doing those problems before and they are there.
 

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Check around page 7-8 of the other topic (the pinned one about the WC) and you'll remember your opinions.

You've said our midfield was not that bad and we ended up not trying a single change in theat sector with everyone there playing badly on the second half, simply because even Dunga lost faith in his Josues, Klebersons and Baptistas after he tried using them.

You've also said Robinho could lead the team, that he always is good enough for the NT and he was TERRIBLE in the second half, when we really needed him. Scored 3 goals, not a terrible WC, but a very forgettable one. No Rivaldo, no Romário, no Ronaldo here (not saying you compared him to those, but you trusted him as our main attacker).

About the game, the goals came from crosses from the left-side, the first one being an accident of our defense, it was not a good play coming from there. The second one came from a corner, not a play well constructed on the left based on the weakness of our fullback, a corner who Kuyt made a bizarre assist.

The team played well in the first half, it was not a shameful exit like 2006, I can agree on all that. I'm not saying everything was bad, but again, for Brazil, it's a big underachievment. And it had problems me and others could foresee. You and Garrincha had your points, you sure know football, but in my opinion you made the problems weaker than they seem. Felipe Melo was key for the failure today, the lack of players on the bench to at least try something different was evident. And let's remember Dani Alves stayed on the team even after making 3 bad consecutive games because after we lost Elano not even Dunga could trust Kléberson or JB to play there.
 

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Check around page 7-8 of the other topic (the pinned one about the WC) and you'll remember your opinions.
And there I never said Julio Baptista always played well for the NT, but that he had conquered his position coming from the bench and scoring goals. I said quite clearly that I did not like him (never did) at all.

You've said our midfield was not that bad and we ended up not trying a single change in theat sector with everyone there playing badly on the second half, simply because even Dunga lost faith in his Josues, Klebersons and Baptistas after he tried using them.
And it was not that bad. Even Gilberto Silva did a good game. Melo was far from a disaster. Kaka was doing well and Daniel Alves having his best game at that position in the cup. After the goal the team scrambled completely, it was not our middlefield, even our defense failed. Anyways, who said Dunga lost any faith? Kleberson didnt even play enough for him to lost faith. I thought Dunga would come with Grafitte or JB in the place of Gilberto at last momments, but obviously Dunga was out of his mind even to try this simple trick (I dunno, maybe fear of being called simplorious, maybe fear to play extra-time with that formation), but he lost his faith? Would he put Josue or Kleberson there? I think it was very possible that without the red, Nilmar would come in Felipe place.

You've also said Robinho could lead the team, that he always is good enough for the NT and he was TERRIBLE in the second half, when we really needed him. Scored 3 goals, not a terrible WC, but a very forgettable one. No Rivaldo, no Romário, no Ronaldo here (not saying you compared him to those, but you trusted him as our main attacker).
Robinho was good, there is no reason for him not be there and he at NT was a much more dedicated player. That still true. He wasnt such big disapointment, albeit he was clearly one of the most out of control players in the second half.


About the game, the goals came from crosses from the left-side, the first one being an accident of our defense, it was not a good play coming from there. The second one came from a corner, not a play well constructed on the left based on the weakness of our fullback, a corner who Kuyt made a bizarre assist.
As I said, Bastos was even having his best game. Probally, if he played like this before we would shrug about him. Robben was cointained (not much effort, é um pipoqueiro) and even ridiculous. But he was experient enough to use the referee. That caused some instability, which was the result of the red card and how the corner was created and the substitution. Also, Bastos was not good enough to take advantage of the left side, less marked.
I agree, both goals are more near to accidental than great created moves. Holand wasnt impressive at all in their creation.

The team played well in the first half, it was not a shameful exit like 2006, I can agree on all that. I'm not saying everything was bad, but again, for Brazil, it's a big underachievment. And it had problems me and others could foresee. You and Garrincha had your points, you sure know football, but in my opinion you made the problems weaker than they seem. Felipe Melo was key for the failure today, the lack of players on the bench to at least try something different was evident. And let's remember Dani Alves stayed on the team even after making 3 bad consecutive games because after we lost Elano not even Dunga could trust Kléberson or JB to play there.
I do think we could have a different bench. I dont think it was a key today, unless as different bench, we mean a different Dunga (not in chosing players, but how handling them). I do think the World Cup is won more on this mental state than having 3 different bench players and we lost there. I pointed that Felipe was one of my fears and yes, it is an underachivement. I did not like how Brazil was too relaxed in this cup (with the spirit of first round of games and not the spirit of the other games, when the cup gained some audacy) and Brazil, while seemed under control, was not really imposing. This is not the press talk about brazilian way or anything, even a counterattacking team must be intense. we are not. A defensive team, must be. We are not.
 

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Cachorro
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Ele não pode ser questionado!!! Ele bota um ponta direita de lateral esquerdo e robben vai jogar em cima desse panaca... Mas fazer o quê né... Tanta gente "entendida" de futebol tava apoiando essa ameba...
Michel Bastos isn't a rightwinger any more than Cafu was one in 2002; Bastos played as leftback for YEARS before arriving in France, and he knew the position perfectly well. To give credit where it's due, Michel Bastos had delivered a great performance against Chile's dangerous rightwinger (who was one of Chile's main offensive weapons, but Bastos dominated him comfortably); and he was actually doing pretty well against Robben on the 1st half, until Bastos got an unfortunate yellow card - and on the 2nd half Dunga decided to move him upfield and put Gilberto on the leftback (and it was Gilberto who failed completely at the leftback, allowing Holland to run over us through his sector).

The team played well in the first half, it was not a shameful exit like 2006, I can agree on all that. I'm not saying everything was bad, but again, for Brazil, it's a big underachievment. And it had problems me and others could foresee. You and Garrincha had your points, you sure know football, but in my opinion you made the problems weaker than they seem. Felipe Melo was key for the failure today, the lack of players on the bench to at least try something different was evident. And let's remember Dani Alves stayed on the team even after making 3 bad consecutive games because after we lost Elano not even Dunga could trust Kléberson or JB to play there.
Felipe Melo was the most interesting character in the Brasil x Holland game for the roles he played in both halves: he played a terrific 1st half, delivering a masterful pass to our goal and doing a solid job defensively overall. Then came the 2nd half, where he suffered the same meltdown that afflicted almost everyone on our team, and committed too many decisive mistakes, culminating with that disgraceful foul that earned him a red card.

I agree that Kleberson shouldn't be there in the first place, and I don't think I've ever said otherwise; but to be fair, one of the reasons we didn't have offensive options on the bench in that fateful 2nd half was because Elano, Julio Baptista and Ramires were all unavailable. I still believe that Ronaldinho didn't deserve to be there, and that the problem with Ganso was the absence of a 1st-semester domestic NT friendly where upcoming youngsters could've been tested (like we did in '94 and 2002, when the young Ronaldo and Kaka were able to earn their WC spots in 1st-semester NT friendlies played in Brasil on those years). If Ganso had been tested as it was CBF OBLIGATION to do, he would have been in the WC; I don't think it's entirely fair to blame Dunga for not taking a completely unproven kid who was riding his team's bench until last December. :undecide:

While I agree that the WC call-up was flawed, I don't think it's fair to say that everything in our preparation was wrong. But after seeing Dunga's temper-tantrum on that 2nd half, when our team needed stability more than anything, I was finished with Dunga. Brasil can't afford to have someone with so little self-control in charge of the NT; it's one thing to go berserk when you're one of the soldiers, but the general needs to be able to think clearly when the pressure rises. And Dunga failed MISERABLY in that regard. I've seen bad/flawed NT call-ups before in my life (Paulo Sergio and Doriva, anyone?), which is why I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Dunga's undeniably-flawed convocation; but I had never seen a Brasilian NT manager reacting so hysterically to a bad turn of events inside the pitch. :thmbdown:

Now I only hope we get a manager who's experienced and proven. Scolari, Muricy, Mano, Autuori, Abel, ANYONE who knows what they're doing when things don't go according to plan.
 
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